Chick how many IFBB Pro shows in 09??

[timfogarty]

The problem isnt promoters...it's sponsors willing to support even more shows than they're sponsoring now...that combined with a limited fan base, and you see why it is what it is.

Sponsors dont gain much by just giving away MORE free samples to the same audience over and over...

believe it or not, bodybuilding shows were able to survive on just the ticket sales.   many other sporting events are able to survive on the gate.   

then again, bodybuilding magazines in the US were able to be profitable with only 10-20% ads.  Bodybuilding mags in other countries continue to be profitable with less than 100 pages of ads.

[Chick]

believe it or not, bodybuilding shows were able to survive on just the ticket sales.   many other sporting events are able to survive on the gate.   

then again, bodybuilding magazines in the US were able to be profitable with only 10-20% ads.  Bodybuilding mags in other countries continue to be profitable with less than 100 pages of ads.

Not sure I'm seeing the connection...

[240 is Back]

Hey, why did you steal the Pro Bowling Tour schedule?

Bowling isn't a sport.

[Switznegger]

Bowling isn't a sport.

                 No but it pays more than Pro BB.

[timfogarty]

Not sure I'm seeing the connection...

the business of bodybuilding is flawed from top to bottom.  and it's unsustainable.

I don't understand why supplement companies would sponsor bodybuilding shows in the first place because people who attend shows are not their target demographics, 15-25 year old males.  yet the shows are created as these mega events that they expect people to fly in for the weekend, not exactly what 15-25 year olds are likely to do.   I don't know why a supplement company would buy a booth at the Olympia expo, which is a trade show for people in the industry.   Its not an effective way to reach the people who buy your product.

Even without the internet, the US bodybuilding mags are killing themselves by creating products that no one can or would want to read on a regular basis.  400-500 pages a month, ads made to look like articles or athlete profiles!    the kids read it because they don't know better, but the kids eventually grow up and realize its all BS.    I think all the ads, and especially all the deceptive ads, in US magazines has turned people off, decreasing sales, accelerating their decline.

In other parts of the world, Australia, Europe, Latin America, the bodybuilding mags are still magazines, not supplement catalogs.   Usually under 200 pages, less than a third ads.

I'm sure some non-US publishers would love to have the short term profit from 300 pages of ads, but the advertisers aren't there.  That's because they have stricter laws on what you can sell, or what you can claim in ads.   In Mexico, you can buy anabolic steroids without a script at any pharmacy, but there are very few of the big name supplements because the Mexican government requires you to prove that your supplement does what you say it does.

It would be great if non-supplement companies would get involved with sponsoring pro bodybuilding shows.  But Nike or Budweiser or Staples aren't going to get near a sport so tainted by drugs.   Only supplement companies seem willing to do that.  Perhaps the reason why almost all IFBB pro shows are in the US is because only in the US are dietary supplement laws so lax that supplement companies are able to make huge profits.    Supplement companies aren't willing to sponsor contests outside the US because they can't sell their products there.

But again, why can't a bodybuilding contest, or a series of contests held over a month or so, survive on just the revenue from the gate?   

[jwb]

and have to pay some huge franchise fee to the IFBB.  Perhaps the IFBB should give up their franchise fee, or even kick in some money to help develop shows throughout the world, to help develop a fan base.   Invest some money to improve the long term health of the business.

the franchise fee is the biggest load of shit going...

the ifbb gets paid upfront no matter what...

[Chick]

the business of bodybuilding is flawed from top to bottom.  and it's unsustainable.

I don't understand why supplement companies would sponsor bodybuilding shows in the first place because people who attend shows are not their target demographics, 15-25 year old males.  yet the shows are created as these mega events that they expect people to fly in for the weekend, not exactly what 15-25 year olds are likely to do.   I don't know why a supplement company would buy a booth at the Olympia expo, which is a trade show for people in the industry.   Its not an effective way to reach the people who buy your product.

Even without the internet, the US bodybuilding mags are killing themselves by creating products that no one can or would want to read on a regular basis.  400-500 pages a month, ads made to look like articles or athlete profiles!    the kids read it because they don't know better, but the kids eventually grow up and realize its all BS.    I think all the ads, and especially all the deceptive ads, in US magazines has turned people off, decreasing sales, accelerating their decline.

In other parts of the world, Australia, Europe, Latin America, the bodybuilding mags are still magazines, not supplement catalogs.   Usually under 200 pages, less than a third ads.

I'm sure some non-US publishers would love to have the short term profit from 300 pages of ads, but the advertisers aren't there.  That's because they have stricter laws on what you can sell, or what you can claim in ads.   In Mexico, you can buy anabolic steroids without a script at any pharmacy, but there are very few of the big name supplements because the Mexican government requires you to prove that your supplement does what you say it does.

It would be great if non-supplement companies would get involved with sponsoring pro bodybuilding shows.  But Nike or Budweiser or Staples aren't going to get near a sport so tainted by drugs.   Only supplement companies seem willing to do that.  Perhaps the reason why almost all IFBB pro shows are in the US is because only in the US are dietary supplement laws so lax that supplement companies are able to make huge profits.    Supplement companies aren't willing to sponsor contests outside the US because they can't sell their products there.

But again, why can't a bodybuilding contest, or a series of contests held over a month or so, survive on just the revenue from the gate?   

What are you talking about?  We (BB.com) sell a great deal of supplements outside the US, as does Weider Inc. (who does MOST of their business there) and sell millions

As for non supplement companies...it's got nothing to do with drugs and everything to do with numbers, which arent enough to justify them getting involved....their advertising schemes get the same audience through other means (like commercials which hit anyone who has a TV)

And to answer your last question:  why cant BB contests survive on gate revenue?  Because it's not even close to break even for all the costs involved...we dont draw enough people to count on the gate....

[Schmoe Buster]

What are you talking about?  We (BB.com) sell a great deal of supplements outside the US, as does Weider Inc. (who does MOST of their business there) and sell millions

As for non supplement companies...it's got nothing to do with drugs and everything to do with numbers, which arent enough to justify them getting involved....their advertising schemes get the same audience through other means (like commercials which hit anyone who has a TV)

And to answer your last question:  why cant BB contests survive on gate revenue?  Because it's not even close to break even for all the costs involved...we dont draw enough people to count on the gate....

then the IFBB/AMI/Weider/Promoters need to find a way to draw fans

[littleguns]

1   New York City Pro   $125,000
2   Los Angeles Pro   $95,000
3   Chicago   Pro   $100,000
4   Houston   Pro   $100,000
5   Phoenix   Pro   $125,000
6   Philadelphia Pro   $125,000
7   San Antonio Pro   $125,000
8   San Diego Pro   $110,000
9   Dallas   Pro   $95,000
10   San Jose   Pro   $100,000
11   Detroit   Pro   $100,000
12   Jacksonville Pro   $110,000
13   Indianapolis Pro   $125,000
14   San Francisco Pro   $125,000
15   Columbus   Pro   $110,000
16   Austin   Pro   $90,000
17   Memphis   Pro   $100,000
18   Fort Worth Pro   $125,000
19   Baltimore   Pro   $125,000
20   Charlotte   Pro   $100,000
21   El Paso   Pro   $125,000
22   Boston   Pro   $125,000
23   Seattle   Pro   $125,000
24   Washington Pro   $95,000
25   Milwaukee Pro   $80,000

   Hey, it looks good on paper, doesn't it?

Where are you getting these? Would love to see Dates....I live in Boston and would love to see a Pro Show here

[MB]

It seems like Joe Weider alone could take bodybuilding to the next level, if he chose to.  If Joe set up a fund to give the Olympia winner $1 million, that alone would draw more fan interest and maybe TV interest.  It seems odd that Joe has more money than he can spend, but is not willing to set some aside for the biggest show in bodybuilding (with his name on it).   

[Sarcastic Deity]

It seems odd that Joe has more money than he can spend, but is not willing to set some aside for the biggest show in bodybuilding (with his name on it).   

pound foolish

[timfogarty]

What are you talking about?  We (BB.com) sell a great deal of supplements outside the US, as does Weider Inc. (who does MOST of their business there) and sell millions

that kind of supports my point.  if some people are willing to pay the incredibly expensive international shipping rates when ordering from bb.com it's because they can't get them locally.    they can't get them locally because those governments won't allow the supplement manufacturers in without some proof the product work.  Sure you can get the weight gainers, protein powders and vitamins throughout the world, which is what Weider Inc mostly sells in those countries.    But those aren't the high markup items of dubious value that the US companies have made their billions on.

my point remains:  the supplement companies aren't interested in sponsoring contests outside the US because they can't sell their main products in those countries.   that's because they're unable or unwilling to spend the money to prove their products do what they claim.

[Chick]

that kind of supports my point.  if some people are willing to pay the incredibly expensive international shipping rates when ordering from bb.com it's because they can't get them locally.    they can't get them locally because those governments won't allow the supplement manufacturers in without some proof the product work.  Sure you can get the weight gainers, protein powders and vitamins throughout the world, which is what Weider Inc mostly sells in those countries.    But those aren't the high markup items of dubious value that the US companies have made their billions on.

my point remains:  the supplement companies aren't interested in sponsoring contests outside the US because they can't sell their main products in those countries.   that's because they're unable or unwilling to spend the money to prove their products do what they claim.

How would you know what Weider and BB.com MOSTLY sell in EWurope, etc?

Please tell me, I'm dying to hear this one

[Switznegger]

Weider Knows BB is a laughing stock and just loves feeding off the Poor Dumb BBs.If they still compete with all that Drug use for a MASSIVE $10K why the hell increase the amount of Money only a fool would spend 15k to have a chance at 10k.Why NOT have more IFBB shows after all you DON'T allow the Pros to compete else where.Criminals.

[timfogarty]

How would you know what Weider and BB.com MOSTLY sell in EWurope, etc?

Please tell me, I'm dying to hear this one

well, bb.com doesn't sell anything locally in Europe or Latin America.  they're a mail order reseller.  I'm sure bb.com sells all the big brands to European customers.  That supports my point that the big brands can't sell locally, in the neighborhood health food stores.  Why would someone outside the US buy from bb.com and pay an additional 30-50% for international shipping if they could get it locally?

as far as Weider, all you have to do is go to their products page at http://www.weider.com/products.php and you'll see there's no NO products, no andros, no gh boosters, no 'homeopathic' sprays, none of the products of dubious value that made the major US brands rich.

[Chick]

well, bb.com doesn't sell anything locally in Europe or Latin America.  they're a mail order reseller.  I'm sure bb.com sells all the big brands to European customers.  That supports my point that the big brands can't sell locally, in the neighborhood health food stores.  Why would someone outside the US buy from bb.com and pay an additional 30-50% for international shipping if they could get it locally?

as far as Weider, all you have to do is go to their products page at http://www.weider.com/products.php and you'll see there's no NO products, no andros, no gh boosters, none of the products of dubious value that made the major US brands rich.

I'm failing to see how this supports your point...If BB.com, Weider, Europa, and a host of other companies sell millions in Europe....why would they not support a show there?  No one cares WHY they buy, the point is that they DO buy...

That said, what does this have to do with anything related to the conversation?

[ManBearPig...]

apparently a recession is a cure for repressed homosexuality.

[Sarcastic Deity]

I'm failing to see how this supports your point...If BB.com, Weider, Europa, and a host of other companies sell millions in Europe....why would they not support a show there?  No one cares WHY they buy, the point is that they DO buy...

That said, what does this have to do with anything related to the conversation?

uh, tim...?  i believe bob directed this at you, sir. 

[bigdumbbell]

How would you know what Weider and BB.com MOSTLY sell in EWurope, etc?

Please tell me, I'm dying to hear this one

do the products work? 

[timfogarty]

uh, tim...?  i believe bob directed this at you, sir. 

there were too many IFs.  IF bb.com sold lots of supplements to Europe, then they would be justified in spending a good part of their marketing budget on sponsoring contests.   But simple economics show that Europe is not a big source of income for bb.com.  A kid in Europe pays a 30-50% surcharge for international shipping to buy something from bb.com.  If the product is available locally, he's not going to buy it from bb.com.   So therefore it makes no sense for bb.com to spend money sponsoring a show outside the US.

IF Europa could sell the low cost/high profit products like the NO supplements and GH boosters to local supplement stores outside the US, then they'd be justified in spending a good part of their marketing budget on contests.   But the laws in many other countries are different than in the US, and you have to provide evidence of your claims.  (and in some other countries, steroids are over the counter, so why would a bodybuilder buy meta steroid supplements?)   

Weider International's line of products is almost exclusively protein powders and weight gainers.  Not exactly the high volume high profit items that would make it worthwhile to sponsor a contest.

just look at bodybuilding mags.  in the US they're all 300-500 page supplement catalogs.  They're not like that in Europe, Australia, Asia or Latin America.  If supplements were so profitable in those countries, why wouldn't the supplement companies be buying up the ads in those magazines?   Supplements are not the cash cow in other parts of the world as it is in the US.  If it's not cost effective to spend money on magazine ads, it's certainly not going to be cost effective to sponsor a contest outside the US.