Clen or ECA, which is better for avoiding catabolism?

[Popeye]

When in hard pre-contest diet, which is better to use to preserve muscle???

[Stavios]

clen would be the logical answer

ECA doesn't avoid catabolism at all

[Van_Bilderass]

ECA doesn't avoid catabolism at all

It does actually. Question is which is more potent in this regard.

[Stavios]

It does actually. Question is which is more potent in this regard.

really ?!?

I always tought it didn't do shit for the catabolism

[Van_Bilderass]

really ?!?

I always tought it didn't do shit for the catabolism

Yeah it preserves muscle through at least some of the same mechanism(s) as clen, which isn't hard to believe since they're both beta-agonists.

Some example data:

Clin Sci (Lond). 1992 Jan;82(1):85-92.

Effects of chronic administration of ephedrine during very-low-calorie diets on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and hormone levels in obese subjects.

Pasquali R, Casimirri F, Melchionda N, Grossi G, Bortoluzzi L, Morselli Labate AM, Stefanini C, Raitano A.

Istituto di Clinica Medica 1, Ospedale S. Orsola, University Alma Mater of Bologna, Italy.

1. We investigated the effects of the chronic administration of a sympathomimetic agent on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and levels of thyroid hormones and catecholamines in 10 obese subjects after a 6-week very-low-calorie-diet programme (1965 kJ, 60 g of protein, 45 g of carbohydrates). L-(-)-Ephedrine hydrochloride (50 mg three times a day by mouth) or placebo were administered during 2-week periods (weeks 2-5 of the VLCD programme) in a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design. Five subjects began with ephedrine and five with placebo. 2. The results were analysed separately in the two groups. No difference was found between them as regards weight loss during the very-low-calorie diet and drug treatments. Conversely, ephedrine therapy induced a significantly lower daily urinary excretion of nitrogen (and, consequently, a better nitrogen balance) with respect to placebo, independently of the drug sequence. Daily urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine during ephedrine and placebo treatments were similar. The fasting resting metabolic rate (oxygen consumption, ml STP/min) fell significantly during the very-low-calorie diet in both groups, but this effect was partially and significantly prevented by administration of ephedrine. Diet therapy significantly reduced 24 h urine levels of vanillylmandelic acid and homovanillic acid, which, however, increased to pretreatment values during ephedrine treatment. No significant effects were shown on 24 h urinary concentrations of adrenaline, noradrenaline and dopamine during the very-low-calorie diet and/or ephedrine treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 1310922

Metabolism. 1992 Jul;41(7):686-8.

The effect of ephedrine/caffeine mixture on energy expenditure and body composition in obese women.

Astrup A, Buemann B, Christensen NJ, Toubro S, Thorbek G, Victor OJ, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Treatment with beta 2-agonists promotes fat loss and muscle growth in numerous species, but human studies are lacking. We studied the effect of a compound with beta 2-agonistic properties (ephedrine 20 mg/caffeine 200 mg [E + C]). Fourteen obese women were treated with a 4.2-MJ/d diet and either E + C or placebo (P) three times per day for 8 weeks in a double-blind study. Weight-loss was not different in the groups, but the E + C group lost 4.5 kg more body fat and 2.8 kg less fat-free mass (FFM). The decrease in 24-hour energy expenditure (EE) seen in the P group was 10% at day 1 and 13% at day 56, but was only 7% and 8% in the treated group (P = .044). The higher EE in the E +C group was entirely covered by fat oxidation. These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFMduring weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans.

PMID: 1619985

This one goes as far as saying it may be anabolic

Am J Clin Nutr. 1992 Jan;55(1 Suppl):246S-248S.
    Pharmacology of thermogenic drugs.
    Astrup A, Toubro S, Christensen NJ, Quaade F.

    Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

    Thermogenic combinations of ephedrine with caffeine and newer selective beta 3-agonists are being assessed for the treatment of obesity. The actions of beta-agonists may be multifaceted, with acute stimulation of thermogenic mechanisms in various tissues. During chronic treatment recruitment of brown fat may occur and hypertrophy of skeletal muscle may occur and simultaneously increase lean body tissue and reduce fat mass by stimulation of lipolysis and energy expenditure. The weight-reducing effect of an ephedrine-caffeine combination was superior to placebo treatment during 24 wk of energy restriction in obese women, whereas caffeine and ephedrine separately had no effect. In a second study it was found that ephedrine-caffeine compared with placebo preserved fat-free mass and enhanced fat loss, which could be accounted for both by anorexia (75%) and by increased thermogenesis (25%). The ephedrine-caffeine compound seems useful for the treatment of obesity and may serve as reference in the clinical assessment of new beta-agonists.

[4thAD]

If your looking for anti-catabolic, go with albuterol. Better drug than clen, and easier on the heart.

[Emmortal]

If your looking for anti-catabolic, go with albuterol. Better drug than clen, and easier on the heart.

Some might argue however it is less effective than Clen when it comes to fat loss and I'd tend to agree it is a bit weaker.  But not so much that it's useless.

[Captain Equipoise]

albuterol is not a better drug than clen.

Yeah, you wouldk now cause you've done so many cycles with both...     

[Princess L]

Might be some interesting reading here


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Link&LinkName=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=15705021

[StackedDec]

Clen is really good for fat loss and helps muscle growth esp. if you respond to thermogenisis well. and all that, but for me the sides suck bad.

Too hot all the time, sweating and jittery, uneasy and tough to focus for long.  I can't even remember what else because I quit it as soon as they got bad.  Not worth it, I have been 5% bodyfat my whole life and I don't compete, no need to be any more ripped. 

I don't know about albueterol but I'd think it would work similarly with fewer sides, although it probably wouldn't be as effective because it is less anabolic and less likely to increase thermogenisis which would be the greatest thing to combat catabolism when dieting or coming off a androgen based cycle.

[abc123]

I hate Clen, but it drops fat off my body at an unbelievable rate when combined with T3 and GH (much more than just T3 and GH). 

Would it be a bad idea to combine a little Clen with Albuterol?  Ideally, you could use the max dose of Clen that you can handle without sides and then add a little Albuterol in on top of it?

[Van_Bilderass]

look it up. its basic, simple, straight away fact... mcg for mcg... clen pwns albuterol

ive run plenty of clen, but never any albuterol

Albuterol seems to increase strength a bit, more than other beta agonists I've tried. I don't like the way I feel on it though, a bit anxious. I don't get it from clen as much. Most report the opposite wrt albuterol/clen.

Unlike Clen Albuterol actually has a human study showing it increases muscle size.

[Captain Equipoise]

Might be some interesting reading here


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Link&LinkName=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=15705021

Great links! thank you

[Captain Equipoise]

Albuterol seems to increase strength a bit, more than other beta agonists I've tried. I don't like the way I feel on it though, a bit anxious. I don't get it from clen as much. Most report the opposite wrt albuterol/clen.

Unlike Clen Albuterol actually has a human study showing it increases muscle size.

Yea, that is strange, most report the exact opposite.. I always feel anxious/jumpy on clen, heart palpitations...but the worst are the clen cramps, which coincidentally always seem to occur during sex...Grrrr... enjoying my albuterol much more, taking 4mg a day(2 x 2mg tabs) and getting leaner..