Author Topic: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!  (Read 2585 times)

The True Adonis

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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/18/the_most_outrageous_us_lies_about_global_healthcare?page=full

The Most Outrageous U.S. Lies About Global Healthcare
As the U.S. Congress this summer holds its first serious health-care reform debate since the Clinton era, the resulting public furor has featured increasingly overheated claims about everything from so-called "death panels" to the supposed prowess of America's homegrown medicine. Many of the most wildly inaccurate statements have been directed abroad -- sometimes at the United States' closest allies, such as Britain and Canada, and often at the best health-care systems in the world.

BY ANNIE LOWREY, MICHAEL WILKERSON | AUGUST 18, 2009
NO HEALTH CARE FOR HAWKING OR KENNEDY


The lie: Stephen Hawking (who has Lou Gehrig's disease) and U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy (who has brain cancer) would not receive treatment in Britain, which has a government-run health-care system.

The liars: An editorial in Investor's Business Daily on July 31 claimed: "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service [NHS] would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa -- the senior-most Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, which must approve health-care bills -- said Aug. 5 during a radio interview with Iowa City's KCJJ, "Ted Kennedy -- with a brain tumor, being 77 years old as opposed to being 37 years old -- if he were in England, would not be treated for his disease because ... when you get to be 77, your life is considered less valuable under those systems."

The debunking: In both cases, this is nonsense.

Hawking, who is British, receives intensive treatment for his degenerative motor neuron disease at a local Cambridge hospital. Upon hearing the rumors of his non-treatment, the prizewinning theoretical physicist told The Guardian, "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

In Kennedy's case, it is true that Britain assesses the cost-effectiveness of procedures and medicines before deciding whether to prescribe them. And the NHS does deny some procedures and drugs based on considerations such as the severity of a patient's sickness, the cost of treatment, and the quality of life afforded. But doctors and NHS officials have stressed that Britons with Kennedy's condition, regardless of age, would receive aggressive treatment, including surgery, radiation therapy, and chemotherapy.

The chief executive of Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which determines the rationing system, told The Guardian, "It is neither true nor is it anything you could extrapolate from anything we've ever recommended" that Kennedy would be denied treatment by the NHS.

Thus far, neither Kennedy nor Grassley have commented since Grassley's initial remark.

CANADIANS HEAD TO THE UNITED STATES FOR URGENT CARE



The lie: Canada's government-run health care is so bad that needy patients need to pay for care in the United States.

The liars: The advocacy group Patients United Now is running a television ad featuring Ontario resident Shona Holmes, who claims, "I survived a brain tumor, but if I had relied on my government health care, I'd be dead." She says she traveled to the United States for lifesaving treatment.

In June, Sen. Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said, "For cardiac bypass surgery, patients in Ontario are told they may have to wait six months for a surgery that Americans can often get right away."

The debunking: Holmes did indeed pay $100,000 for care she received from Minnesota's famed Mayo Clinic, considered one of the best medical centers in the world.

But Holmes' treatment was not a lifesaving anti-cancer measure. The Mayo Clinic's own Web site explains that she had a cyst -- not a brain tumor -- which was not necessarily life-threatening. (It also explains that Mayo is a nonprofit cooperative and strongly supports health-care reform.)

In general, Canadians are not flocking south for health care, and for good reason. According to a report from the Fraser Institute, a prominent Canadian think tank, both the Canadian and U.S. governments spend about 7 percent of their GDPs on health-care costs. (The United States, including private expenditure, spends about 16 percent of GDP on health care.) But all Canadians are covered for all medical care, plus some prescription drug costs. In the United States, 47 million are uninsured, and hundreds of thousands declare bankruptcy every year due to medical bills.

There are wait times in Canada, but nobody waits for emergency surgery; McConnell's claim about bypass patients is untrue. In 2007, a non-emergency patient in Ontario waited about 61 days for elective bypass surgery, according to Canada's health service. Such collected data is not made public in the United States.

HEALTH CARE IN EUROPE ONLY WORKS BECAUSE OF SINGLE-PAYER



The lie: European countries all have long-standing single-payer systems -- which is why their health-care systems work.

The liar: Howard Dean, the former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, recently said, "The Europeans all have single-payer [systems] because essentially their health-care systems were destroyed during World War II. And they went to a single payer ... and then it turned out they loved it and didn't want to get away from it afterwards."

The debunking: This is an overgeneralization.

Europe has a broad range of health-care systems and health insurance plans; not all European countries are single-payer. It's an amorphous term, but usually denotes a system in which the government pays the medical bills, but doctors and hospitals are private, such as in Canada, France, and Germany. (In socialized systems, such as Britain's NHS or the U.S. Veterans Affairs Department, the government pays the doctors and owns the hospitals.)

Rather than a single post-World War II wave of health-care reform, numerous European countries have experimented to find systems that work. For instance, both Switzerland (in 1994) and the Netherlands (in 2006) moved to models the United States is now considering. Hospitals, doctors, and insurers are for-profit and private. But the systems are highly regulated, and insurance is mandatory and government-subsidized.


CANADA AND BRITAIN MAKE YOUR HEALTH CARE CHOICES FOR YOU

The lie: In Canada and Britain, individuals lose the right to make their own health-care choices.

The liars: The advocacy group Club for Growth and the Republican National Committee (RNC)

The debunking: Both the RNC and the conservative Club for Growth have warned that a government takeover of health care would put a bureaucrat in between patient and doctor -- as in Britain and Canada.

The latter group's ad ominously announces: "$22,750. In England, government officials decided that's how much six months of life is worth. Under their socialized system, if a medical treatment costs more, you're out of luck."

This is not true. Patients in Canada and Britain retain autonomy to help decide upon their courses of treatment and to choose their own doctors.

In England, the $22,750 figure represents not what "six months of life is worth," but the price at which the NICE determines a single drug is not cost-effective. Exceptions to the ceiling are permitted in some cases; and Britons retain the option to pay for private care. (In which case, rationing occurs as it does in the United States: Those with ability to pay do so.) The system is designed to prevent one of the key reasons for high health costs in the United States: With limited medical knowledge, patients assume the most expensive option is the best.

A NICE representative told The Guardian the ad is "a gross misrepresentation of how [the agency] applies health economics to try and address the central issue: how to allocate health care rationally within the context of limited health-care resources."

THE UNITED STATES HAS THE BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD



The lie: The United States has the best health care in the world.

The liars: A slew of U.S. presidents, politicians, journalists, commentators, and everyday citizens

The debunking: There is one yardstick by which U.S. health care distinguishes itself: cost. The United States spends more -- in total dollars, percentage of GDP, and per capita -- than every other country on Earth.

On virtually every other broad metric, the claim that U.S. health care stands for global excellence is demonstrably false. The United States doesn't take a top spot in either the World Health Organization or nonpartisan Commonwealth Fund rankings. The American health-care system is not best in terms of coverage, access, patient safety, efficiency, or cost-effectiveness. It does not produce the best outcomes for diseases such as cancer, heart disease, or diabetes; for the elderly, the middle-aged, or the young; or in terms of life expectancy, rates of chronic diseases, or obesity.

Which countries do come out on top? Often -- France, Switzerland, Britain, Canada, and Japan. On the World Health Organization's list, the United States comes out 37th.

The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 11:01:12 AM »
Quality article TA.

I dont know what's more frightening, the propganda machine used to manipulate the public; or the fact that the public believes the propaganda.


Is America now too "Dumbed Down" to save itself?



The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 11:17:48 AM »
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/18/the_most_outrageous_us_lies_about_global_healthcare?page=full

The Most Outrageous U.S. Lies About Global Healthcare
As the U.S. Congress this summer holds its first serious health-care reform debate since the Clinton era, the resulting public furor has featured increasingly overheated claims about everything from so-called "death panels" to the supposed prowess of America's homegrown medicine. Many of the most wildly inaccurate statements have been directed abroad -- sometimes at the United States' closest allies, such as Britain and Canada, and often at the best health-care systems in the world.

BY ANNIE LOWREY, MICHAEL WILKERSON | AUGUST 18, 2009
NO HEALTH CARE FOR HAWKING OR KENNEDY


The lie: Stephen Hawking (who has Lou Gehrig's disease) and U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy (who has brain cancer) would not receive treatment in Britain, which has a government-run health-care system.

The liars: An editorial in Investor's Business Daily on July 31 claimed: "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service [NHS] would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa -- the senior-most Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, which must approve health-care bills -- said Aug. 5 during a radio interview with Iowa City's KCJJ, "Ted Kennedy -- with a brain tumor, being 77 years old as opposed to being 37 years old -- if he were in England, would not be treated for his disease because ... when you get to be 77, your life is considered less valuable under those systems."

The debunking: In both cases, this is nonsense.

Hawking, who is British, receives intensive treatment for his degenerative motor neuron disease at a local Cambridge hospital. Upon hearing the rumors of his non-treatment, the prizewinning theoretical physicist told The Guardian, "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

In Kennedy's case, it is true that Britain assesses the cost-effectiveness of procedures and medicines before deciding whether to prescribe them. And the NHS does deny some procedures and drugs based on considerations such as the severity of a patient's sickness, the cost of treatment, and the quality of life afforded. But doctors and NHS officials have stressed that Britons with Kennedy's condition, regardless of age, would receive aggressive treatment, including surgery, radiation therapy, and chemotherapy.

The chief executive of Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which determines the rationing system, told The Guardian, "It is neither true nor is it anything you could extrapolate from anything we've ever recommended" that Kennedy would be denied treatment by the NHS.

Thus far, neither Kennedy nor Grassley have commented since Grassley's initial remark.

CANADIANS HEAD TO THE UNITED STATES FOR URGENT CARE



The lie: Canada's government-run health care is so bad that needy patients need to pay for care in the United States.

The liars: The advocacy group Patients United Now is running a television ad featuring Ontario resident Shona Holmes, who claims, "I survived a brain tumor, but if I had relied on my government health care, I'd be dead." She says she traveled to the United States for lifesaving treatment.

In June, Sen. Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said, "For cardiac bypass surgery, patients in Ontario are told they may have to wait six months for a surgery that Americans can often get right away."

The debunking: Holmes did indeed pay $100,000 for care she received from Minnesota's famed Mayo Clinic, considered one of the best medical centers in the world.

But Holmes' treatment was not a lifesaving anti-cancer measure. The Mayo Clinic's own Web site explains that she had a cyst -- not a brain tumor -- which was not necessarily life-threatening. (It also explains that Mayo is a nonprofit cooperative and strongly supports health-care reform.)

In general, Canadians are not flocking south for health care, and for good reason. According to a report from the Fraser Institute, a prominent Canadian think tank, both the Canadian and U.S. governments spend about 7 percent of their GDPs on health-care costs. (The United States, including private expenditure, spends about 16 percent of GDP on health care.) But all Canadians are covered for all medical care, plus some prescription drug costs. In the United States, 47 million are uninsured, and hundreds of thousands declare bankruptcy every year due to medical bills.

There are wait times in Canada, but nobody waits for emergency surgery; McConnell's claim about bypass patients is untrue. In 2007, a non-emergency patient in Ontario waited about 61 days for elective bypass surgery, according to Canada's health service. Such collected data is not made public in the United States.

HEALTH CARE IN EUROPE ONLY WORKS BECAUSE OF SINGLE-PAYER



The lie: European countries all have long-standing single-payer systems -- which is why their health-care systems work.

The liar: Howard Dean, the former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, recently said, "The Europeans all have single-payer [systems] because essentially their health-care systems were destroyed during World War II. And they went to a single payer ... and then it turned out they loved it and didn't want to get away from it afterwards."

The debunking: This is an overgeneralization.

Europe has a broad range of health-care systems and health insurance plans; not all European countries are single-payer. It's an amorphous term, but usually denotes a system in which the government pays the medical bills, but doctors and hospitals are private, such as in Canada, France, and Germany. (In socialized systems, such as Britain's NHS or the U.S. Veterans Affairs Department, the government pays the doctors and owns the hospitals.)

Rather than a single post-World War II wave of health-care reform, numerous European countries have experimented to find systems that work. For instance, both Switzerland (in 1994) and the Netherlands (in 2006) moved to models the United States is now considering. Hospitals, doctors, and insurers are for-profit and private. But the systems are highly regulated, and insurance is mandatory and government-subsidized.


CANADA AND BRITAIN MAKE YOUR HEALTH CARE CHOICES FOR YOU

The lie: In Canada and Britain, individuals lose the right to make their own health-care choices.

The liars: The advocacy group Club for Growth and the Republican National Committee (RNC)

The debunking: Both the RNC and the conservative Club for Growth have warned that a government takeover of health care would put a bureaucrat in between patient and doctor -- as in Britain and Canada.

The latter group's ad ominously announces: "$22,750. In England, government officials decided that's how much six months of life is worth. Under their socialized system, if a medical treatment costs more, you're out of luck."

This is not true. Patients in Canada and Britain retain autonomy to help decide upon their courses of treatment and to choose their own doctors.

In England, the $22,750 figure represents not what "six months of life is worth," but the price at which the NICE determines a single drug is not cost-effective. Exceptions to the ceiling are permitted in some cases; and Britons retain the option to pay for private care. (In which case, rationing occurs as it does in the United States: Those with ability to pay do so.) The system is designed to prevent one of the key reasons for high health costs in the United States: With limited medical knowledge, patients assume the most expensive option is the best.

A NICE representative told The Guardian the ad is "a gross misrepresentation of how [the agency] applies health economics to try and address the central issue: how to allocate health care rationally within the context of limited health-care resources."

THE UNITED STATES HAS THE BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD



The lie: The United States has the best health care in the world.

The liars: A slew of U.S. presidents, politicians, journalists, commentators, and everyday citizens

The debunking: There is one yardstick by which U.S. health care distinguishes itself: cost. The United States spends more -- in total dollars, percentage of GDP, and per capita -- than every other country on Earth.

On virtually every other broad metric, the claim that U.S. health care stands for global excellence is demonstrably false. The United States doesn't take a top spot in either the World Health Organization or nonpartisan Commonwealth Fund rankings. The American health-care system is not best in terms of coverage, access, patient safety, efficiency, or cost-effectiveness. It does not produce the best outcomes for diseases such as cancer, heart disease, or diabetes; for the elderly, the middle-aged, or the young; or in terms of life expectancy, rates of chronic diseases, or obesity.

Which countries do come out on top? Often -- France, Switzerland, Britain, Canada, and Japan. On the World Health Organization's list, the United States comes out 37th.

The United States also pays more for things like food stamps,welfare,education.Its funny that I never hear the left complain about that.

headhuntersix

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 12:04:07 PM »
Hey TA do u have any idea how that list is compiled...don't even look at the facts, just look at who is ahead of us. More bullshit.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

Anybody want to get sick here....
33        Chile
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica

or how about here....

3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta

Gimme a friggen break.


The WHO rankings depend crucially on a number of underlying assumptions— some of them logically incoherent, some characterized by substantial uncertainty, and some rooted in ideological beliefs and values that not everyone shares.

The analysts behind the WHO rankings express the hope that their framework "will lay the basis for a shift from ideological discourse on health policy to a more empirical one." Yet the WHO rankings themselves have a strong ideological component. They include factors that are arguably unrelated to actual health performance, some of which could even improve in response to worse health performance. Even setting those concerns aside, the rankings are still highly sensitive to both measurement error and assumptions about the relative importance of the components. And finally, the WHO rankings reflect implicit value judgments and lifestyle preferences that differ among individuals and across countries.

Juat some of the factors.....
1. Health Level: 25 percent
2. Health Distribution: 25 percent
3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent
4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent
5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent
L

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 12:07:05 PM »

headhuntersix

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 10:28:52 AM »
When presented with facts......crickets.
L

The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 07:24:59 PM »
When presented with facts......crickets.

When you say facts I assume you are referring to the excellent article Adonis posted, and I would also assume "crickets" refers to the selectively filtered propaganda-house hogwash you posted? Hogwash which contributes so little to the discussion it is tantamount to silence (crickets).

Right?

This is a self-depricating rmark you were making I assume?


The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 07:46:05 PM »
Take from this what you want.

There is a Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI).  Their web site publishes many, many statistics.    Under Research and Reports, there is a sub-menu for Wait Times.  This section is solely dedicated to measuring the length of time that patients wait for treatment.




First, it is assumed from the get-go that 1 in 4 people will not get their treatment within the benchmark.  Think of three other people you know and spin the bottle to see who will wait the longest.

Second, for knee replacement, only 3 of the 10 provinces are meeting the benchmark of six months.  Imagine walking around for 6+ months on a knee that needs replacing.  Things are a little better for cataract surgery and a little more better for hip replacements.

Lastly, for Coronary Artery Bypass Surgery, all provinces are meeting the benchmark.  Sounds good, except, similar to knee and hip replacements, the benchmark is six months.  Now, I believe the measurement excludes emergencies so clearly there would be some surgeries scheduled very quick and they would not get included here.  However, if you have heart disease, you would essentially be trusting the doctor's judgment that you can wait six or more months for your surgery without having a heart attack.  Some people like to gamble and can probably handle the action.  Others?  Maybe not.


The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 08:49:53 PM »
Bindare_Dundat,


Just a quick question regarding this comment:

Think of three other people you know and spin the bottle to see who will wait the longest.

Don't 1 in 6 Americans currently have an infinite wait time?


I know in most "socialist" single payer systems, you can have your own private healthcare insurance (if you want) and/or pay for any private care you want... those wait times are waiting times for FREE surgeries.

Imagine walking around for 6+ months on a knee that needs replacing. 

More like: Imagine having bad knees for a few years, then when you feel it's finally time for knee replacement, (when your free treatment isnt cutting it any longer) you schedule an appointment for a free surgery.

Yes, you have to wait six months or so, but it's a free non-emergency surgery... and for those entire six months you always have the option of using your private health care insurance (which is also much cheaper under single payer systems) or paying for the whole surgery yourself (private surgeries are also much cheaper under single payer) in order to skip the queue.


Where's the risk? Where's the gamble?


Wait 6 months for the free surgery... or use your $2k a year private insurance... or pay the $6k for the surgery yourself.

Seems a lot less risky than:

Hope you have private healthcare insurance (80% chance)... hope you can afford the $10k a year premium...  hope your HMO covers it (?)... hope your $5k deductible doesn't bankrupt you... hope the $50k surgery doesn't bankrupt you when the HMO denies coverage... hope the prescription drug costs don't bankrupt you... or buy a wheelchair.

Which system is more of a gamble?



The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 09:29:30 PM »
Bindare_Dundat,


Just a quick question regarding this comment:

Don't 1 in 6 Americans currently have an infinite wait time?


I know in most "socialist" single payer systems, you can have your own private healthcare insurance (if you want) and/or pay for any private care you want... those wait times are waiting times for FREE surgeries.

More like: Imagine having bad knees for a few years, then when you feel it's finally time for knee replacement, (when your free treatment isnt cutting it any longer) you schedule an appointment for a free surgery.

Yes, you have to wait six months or so, but it's a free non-emergency surgery... and for those entire six months you always have the option of using your private health care insurance (which is also much cheaper under single payer systems) or paying for the whole surgery yourself (private surgeries are also much cheaper under single payer) in order to skip the queue.


Where's the risk? Where's the gamble?


Wait 6 months for the free surgery... or use your $2k a year private insurance... or pay the $6k for the surgery yourself.

Seems a lot less risky than:

Hope you have private healthcare insurance (80% chance)... hope you can afford the $10k a year premium...  hope your HMO covers it (?)... hope your $5k deductible doesn't bankrupt you... hope the $50k surgery doesn't bankrupt you when the HMO denies coverage... hope the prescription drug costs don't bankrupt you... or buy a wheelchair.

Which system is more of a gamble?



The Luke

 I just threw this out to get more opinions, probably just should have put up the chart instead of adding he authors thoughts. I havent taken a personal stance on it yet.

The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 09:31:48 PM »
I just threw this out to get more opinions, probably just should have put up the chart instead of adding he authors thoughts. I havent taken a personal stance on it yet.

...well at least you realise that chronically uninformed is not a viewpoint.


The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 12:22:58 AM »
...well at least you realise that chronically uninformed is not a viewpoint.

The Luke



You are such a sarcastic SOB. I can really sense the frustration in your post.

Some of the things I see & hear written about health care coverage in Canada makes me want to spit,
...especially when so many people in the USA believe it to their own detriment. As frustrating as it is for me as a Canadian to see Americans lied to by those concerned only with protecting corporate profits, ...I can't even begin to imagine the frustration for guys like TA who is an American, who CAN afford private health care under the current system, ...but who also understands how a single payer option will infact benefit so many others who have a real need. For years we saw special interests lie to the American people to persuade them to willingly enter into a needless war, that not only crippled their economy, loaded down generations with debt, and cost thousands of innocent lives, ...now they're doing it again. Only now, instead of a lie that lines the pockets of the military industrial complex, the lies are designed to line the pockets of the health care insurance companies, to the detriment of the American people. There will be more lives lost, and more money down the drain without health care reform, ...and ordinary people are fighting it? It's like watching a welfare recipient like Joe the plumber scream at George Soros about how rich people should continue to get more at he expense of the poor, and that George Soros has no business trying to have policies implemented that will improve the lives of his fellow countrymen. Guys like George Soros can afford private health care no matter what the cost, or how bloated & inefficient it is. A guy like Soros can afford to build his own hospital and fully staffed surgical theatre in his own home, ...and pay a team of doctors & nurses to be on call 24/7. He doesn't need US health care reform. He's fighting for and arguing for what's right, and what will benefit the American people. People like me and the luke, don't need US health care reform either. We're fine, we live in countries that are smart enough to have instituted universal health care coverage for their citizens. We have health care, ...and will always have health care whether we become unemployed or not... whether we discover a genetic disposition towards a condition, ...or whether we have a pre-existing condition. We want universal health care coverage for you guys because we care about you and want the best for you, as well as ourselves. You could say American health care reform is like the ultimate planetary social safety net. If Americans are happy, healthy and prosperous, ...they'll be content. They build mega hotels in Vegas. We don't want you guys upset, sick, and poor. When that happens, y'all go running off and start blowing up shit all over the planet. We want to party in vegas, not take off our shoes at airports.  :D

What the heck is wrong with Kansas indeed?! It really makes you sometimes wanna give people a good smack or 2!

The following email is making the rounds across Canada:


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Brett Solomon - Avaaz.org <avaaz@avaaz.org>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:06:34 AM
Subject: They are lying about Canada





Dear friends,

Obama's movement for change in the US is collapsing -- in large part because of lies about the Canadian healthcare system!

American corporations are spreading lies about Canadian health care to kill Obama's health plan -- and with it his whole movement for change. Sign the message to Americans about how much we value our public health care. Our system isn't perfect, but it's far better than America's! Let's set the record straight!

It's incredible, but Obama's health plan, and with it his entire Presidency, could be derailed because big corporations and the radical right manage to convince Americans that our health system is a nightmare similar to "Soviet Russia".

We need a huge popular outcry to show the truth -- how proud and grateful we are to have public healthcare in Canada, even despite its drawbacks. Sign on to the message to America -- if enough of us sign and tell friends, we'll be a story in US media and help change the debate:



US healthcare is far more costly and lower quality than almost any other system in the developed world. But reform threatens Obama's majority in the US Congress as happened in 1994 when Bill Clinton attempt to extend health care. If this occurs, progress on every global issue is endangered, from climate change to the war in Iraq.

Obama's health care bill will be championed or buried this month so we have no time to lose. Together we can help turn the debate away from the fear tactics by giving American politicians and the public the truth about government health care in our country.

August is the most critical time in the debate as insurance companies and interest groups begin their lobbying in earnest before the September sitting of Congress. Defend our national health care system and support Obama's reform plan by signing the 'we support universal health care' petition below:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/reform_health_care/?cl=297876714&v=3806

Obama's plan for universal health care is at risk because the powerful medical insurance lobby and right-wing propaganda machine is undermining critical political support in Congress. Our chance is to show that, despite its drawbacks, our national health care system works and should not be used as the bogeyman in the US debate.

The truth is, government funded health care is vastly cheaper, more efficient, and more effective
than turning health care over to large corporations whose only bottom line is profit. The US spends twice as much on health as any other country and ranks 37th in the world in health quality. While 40 million Americans don't have health care, health companies make giant profits. Yet in the US, citizens only hear corporate propaganda that our health care in Canada is a disaster. Say it ain't so below:



Certainly, our health care in Canada is not as good it could be -- but it's a damn sight better than in the US. Let's stand up to the lies about our health care, and let the American population and their politicians know the truth about why health care reform is so important.

With hope,

Brett, Ricken, Ben, Alice, Graziela, Paula, Benjamin, Paul, Pascal and the whole Avaaz team.

References

Myths about the proposed health care reforms
http://www.communitycatalyst.org/projects/national_reform/alerts?id=0066

How health care works in Canada
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health-care-abroad-canada/?scp=15&sq=health&st=cse

Extreme tactics of the conservative right
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/policy/04townhalls.html http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-17-voa45.cfm

Canada's health care system under attack
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/18/the_most_outrageous_us_lies_about_global_healthcare?page=0,0 http://mediamatters.org/research/200904290032
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/world/2009/08/10/10419141-sun.html
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2M0ODk0OTNkZjkwNGM4OGMyYTEwYWY3ODUzMzFiOTc=

Paul Krugman on health care
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=2&scp=31&sq=health&st=cse

The extent of the health care lobby
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aZdbr0YXz5jI

Health insurers stocks rise as health care plans fade
http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSTRE57G4BU20090817?sp=true

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BIG AL MCKECHNIE

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2009, 01:32:52 AM »
Here in the UK we have three options.  We can use the national health service which has not let any of my family down and we have had first hand experience over the years from heart attacks, brain tumour, stroke, childbirth, sports injurys, limb breaks, Parkinsons etc.  The national health service gets paid for by working people paying approx 12% of their salary per year and the employer paying approx another 11%. This also covers pensions (state pension is approx $110 per week). Most people also contribute into a private or company provided pension scheme.
As an alternative in the UK you can pay for medical treatement privately on an ad hoc basis to save waiting time as many surgeons and doctors offer private consultations for approx £100 per hour (like I did for a back injury) or you can pay private medical insurance so that if you need surgery you get treated at one of the many private hospitals. Typical man aged 40 will pay around £100 per month for private medical insurance. 
Remember we also get college and university educations for free in Scotland and when I was doing my degree in electronic engineering back in the early 1980's I actualy got a grant of $2500 per year to help with my living expenses (beer)  :D.






headhuntersix

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 07:42:52 AM »
U want a hand out..move. I've got enough info to say that it will be a disaster. I'm in Gov run healthcare...the doctors are great because they're military and we're less the 1% of the pop of the US. The beaurcracy is pure gov bullshit and it will be worse for the average American because they won't be able to go around the system like we do.
L

The True Adonis

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2009, 07:46:49 AM »
Here in the UK we have three options.  We can use the national health service which has not let any of my family down and we have had first hand experience over the years from heart attacks, brain tumour, stroke, childbirth, sports injurys, limb breaks, Parkinsons etc.  The national health service gets paid for by working people paying approx 12% of their salary per year and the employer paying approx another 11%. This also covers pensions (state pension is approx $110 per week). Most people also contribute into a private or company provided pension scheme.
As an alternative in the UK you can pay for medical treatement privately on an ad hoc basis to save waiting time as many surgeons and doctors offer private consultations for approx £100 per hour (like I did for a back injury) or you can pay private medical insurance so that if you need surgery you get treated at one of the many private hospitals. Typical man aged 40 will pay around £100 per month for private medical insurance. 
Remember we also get college and university educations for free in Scotland and when I was doing my degree in electronic engineering back in the early 1980's I actualy got a grant of $2500 per year to help with my living expenses (beer)  :D.






8)

I like.

James

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2009, 07:52:24 AM »

240 is Back

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2009, 08:12:12 AM »
U want a hand out..move. I've got enough info to say that it will be a disaster. I'm in Gov run healthcare...the doctors are great because they're military and we're less the 1% of the pop of the US. The beaurcracy is pure gov bullshit and it will be worse for the average American because they won't be able to go around the system like we do.

So... to be clear...

Govt run health care is awesome, just so long as only a few people use it?

GigantorX

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2009, 08:58:45 AM »
So... to be clear...

Govt run health care is awesome, just so long as only a few people use it?

Missing the point of his post.

It worked because only 1% of the population was serviced by it. It wasn't swamped and there were no shortages or rationing because of it. And, I'm guessing, that the number of people enrolled in the service was fairly constant.

240 is Back

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2009, 10:37:24 AM »
Missing the point of his post.

It worked because only 1% of the population was serviced by it. It wasn't swamped and there were no shortages or rationing because of it. And, I'm guessing, that the number of people enrolled in the service was fairly constant.

Okay. 

Also, old people are covered.  So militar, govt employees, and old people.  Sweet.  F the rest.

headhuntersix

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2009, 10:48:37 AM »
Okay. 

Also, old people are covered.  So militar, govt employees, and old people.  Sweet.  F the rest.

Gov employee's have private heallthcare just like the rest of the people who pay into the system. We pay tricare to manage the admin portion of our care..just like somebody pays Blue Cross. But I can go around Tricare because the guy down the street from me, who's an OBGYN or shrink went to Ranger School with me and just scheduals me in. Green suiters take care of Green Suiters...my care is not the VA...the VA is an admin nightmare. Work hard get a job that covers u, and allow me to buy another boat with my hard earned tax dollars instead of subsidizing ur two pack a day habit or heroin addiction....my problems aren't urs and vice versa.
L

The True Adonis

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2009, 12:41:27 PM »
Missing the point of his post.

It worked because only 1% of the population was serviced by it. It wasn't swamped and there were no shortages or rationing because of it. And, I'm guessing, that the number of people enrolled in the service was fairly constant.
40 percent of our population is covered under Medicare or a government payer plan.

The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 02:35:54 PM »
....my problems aren't urs and vice versa.


...another moral-minded Republican proffering a "Fuck the Orphans!" argument.


The Luke

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Re: The Most OUTRAGEOUS U.S. LIES About Global Healthcare- VERY GOOD FACTS!
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2009, 03:42:49 PM »
Gov employee's have private heallthcare just like the rest of the people who pay into the system. We pay tricare to manage the admin portion of our care..just like somebody pays Blue Cross. But I can go around Tricare because the guy down the street from me, who's an OBGYN or shrink went to Ranger School with me and just scheduals me in. Green suiters take care of Green Suiters...my care is not the VA...the VA is an admin nightmare. Work hard get a job that covers u, and allow me to buy another boat with my hard earned tax dollars instead of subsidizing ur two pack a day habit or heroin addiction....my problems aren't urs and vice versa.

Hmmm... so tell me, how many OBGYN appointments have you had? How frequently are you able to get PAP tests?
After all your bluster & hubris, ...the truth comes out. Headhuntersix is really just a big pussy!  ;D
w