What is the natural limit?

[musclecenter]

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=117526.675

[dov]

pretty good dov, you mind me asking how old you are?

34

[che]

It's not possible to reach a natural genetic limit. There is no limit. The human body is very complex with lots of inputs and outputs and physical and mental processing. How do you control for these factors to optimize muscle growth to the absolute limit. Statistically impossible. There is no limit.

[JP_RC]

Is this Skip La Cour? I doubt that he is a lifetime natural.

[saucetradomous]

Is that you sauce? Look fuckin sick man

yeah, just wish I could be that cut every day.  I sit at about 180lbs right now, 10% bodyfat.  I need to Drink & socialize these days but I stay pretty close to that.

[kiwiol]

That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.

I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.

I've been lifting on and off since I was 12 - probably taken a total of 6-7 years off in that time (breaks ranging from a few months to a few years at a time), which means I've lifted around 14 years altogether. I was 125 lb when I started and about 215 lb at the end of that time. Put on about 25 lb in the last 4 - 5 years and I think I can still add another 20 lb or so. My arms went from 17 something inches to 19" during the last 3 years of that time.

Granted I'm at 15 - 20% body fat, but that still means you can make substantial gains 10 or even 15 years after you start lifting, as long as you are improving in terms of the amount of weight you lift (progressive overload), eat proper food and have decent genetics.

Judging what is possible by looking at the average lifter would make you conclude that it's not possible to reach a pro's level of development either. I bet not one of the guys who has said QFT or x2 to your post has trained for 20 years or more naturally, including yourself, to see what is possible

[dj181]

Good post kiwiol, I think the point about one reaching the upper limits of their muscular potiential really can be achieved within 2 or 3 years, if one would stay comitted to and dedicated to sound training practices, namely progressive overload. But I think that it takes a special kind of person to do that. With my own case in point, I usually just get distracted my other things, mainly girlfriends, fvck partners, or females in general :<

[Van_Bilderass]

I've been lifting on and off since I was 12 - probably taken a total of 6-7 years off in that time (breaks ranging from a few months to a few years at a time), which means I've lifted around 14 years altogether. I was 125 lb when I started and about 215 lb at the end of that time. Put on about 25 lb in the last 4 - 5 years and I think I can still add another 20 lb or so. My arms went from 17 something inches to 19" during the last 3 years of that time.

Granted I'm at 15 - 20% body fat, but that still means you can make substantial gains 10 or even 15 years after you start lifting, as long as you are improving in terms of the amount of weight you lift (progressive overload), eat proper food and have decent genetics.

Judging what is possible by looking at the average lifter would make you conclude that it's not possible to reach a pro's level of development either. I bet not one of the guys who has said QFT or x2 to your post has trained for 20 years or more naturally, including yourself, to see what is possible

You think you can add 20lbs without increasing BF further? Or do you figure the muscle (hopefully) will stick once you diet down again? Well, who knows, you'll know in a couple of decades or whatever.

You're obviously not going to reach your potential in 2 years if you start training even before puberty. Not even if you start at 15. I trained a few months when I was 9 and then started training regularly at 14-15 (was about 125lbs by the time I turned 15). I wouldn't have reached my full natural potential by 17 as I wouldn't even have been a fully mature adult, not even finished growing height wise, etc. But take a fully grown adult male, say a 20 year old, who can apply himself. He will put on the majority of muscle very quickly. Then he can bulk and cut, again and again, but it doesn't seem to change the size of the cut physique much.

Of course I haven't actually tried training naturally for 20 years. Too long an experiment to verify something not that important to me, something I could decide by observing others.

A friend of mine, a major juicer, once actually argued with me that a natural could reach Ronnie's size, if only he wouldn't run out of time. I don't think it works quite like that. I was really pissed he could make such a silly argument.

[dj181]

According to Arthur Jones an adult male is able to make his best possible progress btw the ages of roughly 25 to 35.

[kiwiol]

Good post kiwiol, I think the point about one reaching the upper limits of their muscular potiential really can be achieved within 2 or 3 years, if one would stay comitted to and dedicated to sound training practices, namely progressive overload. But I think that it takes a special kind of person to do that.

Yep, it's the same as with most things - the people who do go very far and achieve great success with whatever they do are very few in number compared to the majority.

You think you can add 20lbs without increasing BF further? Or do you figure the muscle (hopefully) will stick once you diet down again? Well, who knows, you'll know in a couple of decades or whatever.

I think I can add about 20 lb of body weight in about 3 - 4 years, while staying at around 18% body fat. Not all of that is going to be muscle, but at least 10 - 12 lb of it should be. I've got a fair bit of room for growth left in my legs, which lag behind my upper body due to my not having trained them seriously until about 6 years ago.

I don't think a natural can come anywhere close to looking like a pro, but I'd say a lot of people do underestimate what is possible. The average lifter you see in gyms shouldn't be the gauge of what is possible, cause over 90% of them are clueless when it comes to knowing how to lift or structure their workouts, on top of having lackluster genetics and being very inconsistent.

You mentioned in your original post that it's next to impossible to experience any significant growth after 10 years or so and it was that point that I was addressing with my reply. Even someone who starts lifting in their 20s and is consistent should be capable of adding 5 - 10 lb of muscle by the time they reach their late 30s, although the actual number of them who do end up doing it will be severely outnumbered by those who don't make any gains at all.

[kyomu]

It's not possible to reach a natural genetic limit. There is no limit. The human body is very complex with lots of inputs and outputs and physical and mental processing. How do you control for these factors to optimize muscle growth to the absolute limit. Statistically impossible. There is no limit.

I think there is limit.
But, as you say, nobody can reach that limit.

[Alex23]

It is ShipSekki.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


kiwi is right on the money as usual.

bodytype counts for a lot (which is what drugs tend to change)


It's hard for an ectomorph to gain 10lb of simple bw...

It' much easier for the endomorph, most will be fat...

It's relatively easy for the meso/endo like us to walk around at 240-250lb 5'9"-5'10" a little chubby but clean as a whistle...

Pure meso are the lucky ones but I've only met 2 in my life... liquid_c who posts on here and Casey Viator..

[musclecenter]

According to Arthur Jones an adult male is able to make his best possible progress btw the ages of roughly 25 to 35 55.

but I am 57 now

[dj181]

But you sir, are a good and decent man so much respect to you And maybe it is true that the best gains come between the ages of 25 til 35, but he also said that anyone can make progress regardless of their age.