Author Topic: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally  (Read 1050 times)

George Whorewell

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Israel obeyed international law: Legally, the Gaza flotilla conflict is an open-and-shut case
By Alan Dershowitz

Wednesday, June 2nd 2010, 4:00 AM
 Although the wisdom of Israel's actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is open to question, the legality of its actions is not. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed.

First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Recall that when Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed, it left behind agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip would become a peaceful and productive area.

Instead, Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets, nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets or other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians were permitted into Gaza.

Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks ended.

The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be lawful. This despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of belligerence against the United States. Other nations have similarly enforced naval blockades to assure their own security.

The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other Western countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their security.

Third, were those onboard the ship simply innocent noncombatants? The act of breaking a military siege is itself a military act. And let there be no mistake about the purpose of this flotilla; it was decidedly not to provide humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather to break the entirely lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the leaders of the flotilla, who publicly announced: "This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege on 1.5 million Palestinians."

It is a close question whether "civilians" who agree to participate in the breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly something different from pure innocents, and perhaps they are also somewhat different from pure armed combatants.

Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self-defense engaged in by Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and began to attack Israeli soldiers, they lost their status as innocent civilians.

Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of self-defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his colleagues from attack by knife- and pipe-wielding assailants. Lest there be any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the online video and watch the so-called peaceful activists pummel Israeli soldiers with metal rods.

Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal force. That was especially true in this case, when the soldiers were so outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel's rules of engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives were in danger.

Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self-defense under comparable circumstances?

Israel's critics fail to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts of self-defense.

There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies and alleged violations of international law. Only the latter would warrant international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that Israel violated international law.

Dershowitz, a professor at Harvard Law School, is author of the forthcoming "The Trials of Zion."



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02_israel_obeyed_international_law_legally_the_gaza_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html#ixzz0pixoVOZK

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 12:11:41 PM »
He probably voted for obama so he needs to STFU. 

George Whorewell

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 12:15:54 PM »
While that may be the case, he is still a brilliant legal mind and unlike Obama he actually does some teaching as a law professor.

People may disagree with Israeli policy all they want-- much in the same way that they can disagree with Arizona's newest immigration law. But as with numerous causes of the left, raw emotion, knee jerk stupidity and wild story telling cannot supplant the facts or the letter of the law.



Soul Crusher

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 12:20:37 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I think israel did the right thing and probably should have sunk that boat with all those "peace activists" on it, but I expect nothing else from the 24/7 grievance crew.

Those lazy dirtbags in dirty night shirts should be getting employment and working instead of protesting all the time.  No wonder 99% of the middle east is rubble, rabble, and uther shit with vermin like that comprising 90% or better of their population. 

Sad but true.     


MCWAY

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 12:26:26 PM »
Hannity just mentioned this on his show. Chalk up another "Open Mouth; Insert Foot" moment for the left's anti-Semitic contingent.

Fury

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 12:33:58 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I think israel did the right thing and probably should have sunk that boat with all those "peace activists" on it, but I expect nothing else from the 24/7 grievance crew.

Those lazy dirtbags in dirty night shirts should be getting employment and working instead of protesting all the time.  No wonder 99% of the middle east is rubble, rabble, and uther shit with vermin like that comprising 90% or better of their population.  

Sad but true.    



Indeed.

That Churchill comment would be fit for repeating here:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

-- Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899])."

Funny how accurate Churchill was even way back in 1899, and at 25 years old nonetheless. Good thing they've proved him wrong and changed a lot in the last 110 years. Oh wait.  ::)



As for this blockade fiasco, the only people who seem that they're intent on not shutting up about it are Turkey, who is trying to become a major player in the Middle East and desperately wants the Ottoman Empire to make a resurgence, and Iran, a terrorist state.

Not to mention Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus, where the ships sailed out of, and is also perpetrating yet another genocide (Hi 1915 Armenia) with their murdering of the Kurds so they might as well shut up and stop acting like the victim. They don't seem upset enough to stop shipment of $200 million worth of Israeli drones later this summer. They and the islamofascist MSM are just pandering to all the retards out there. ;)

I will say that the Islamist propaganda machine seems to be even better than the Nazis, though.

Skip8282

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 03:13:28 PM »
Ha.  How surprising that absent from this thread are all the GB'rs who were claiming "international waters", "international waters".  ::)

Fury

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 06:02:24 PM »
Ha.  How surprising that absent from this thread are all the GB'rs who were claiming "international waters", "international waters".  ::)

Ha. My guess is they have nothing else to say and have probably grown tired of feigning outrage.


Anyway, surprise, surprise, the IHH (group that owned the flotilla) has had terrorist ties for over a decade. Suffice to say, I'm SHOCKED to hear that.  ::)

AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties

By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer – Wed Jun 2, 5:51 pm ET
PARIS – The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 al-Qaida plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.

"They were basically helping al-Qaida when (Osama) bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil," he said.

Some members of an international terrorism cell known as the Fateh Kamel network then worked at the IHH, he said. Kamel, an Algerian-Canadian dual national, had ties to the nascent al-Qaida, Bruguiere said.

Among Kamel's followers was Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian who was arrested in the U.S. state of Washington in December 1999 on his way to bomb Los Angeles International Airport as part of an al-Qaida plot.

"IHH had a role in the organization that led to the plot," Bruguiere said, reiterating sworn testimony he made in a U.S. Federal Court during Ressam's trial. Ressam is serving a 22-year prison sentence.

Bruguiere issued an international warrant for Kamel, Ressam's former mentor, who was extradited from Jordan to France in 1999 and sentenced to eight years in prison on terror-related charges.

IHH vehemently denies ties to radical groups. The group is not among some 45 groups listed as terrorists by the U.S. State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism. Nine people on board the IHH flotilla were killed by Israeli forces on Monday.

"We are a legal organization," IHH board member Omer Faruk Korkmaz said late Wednesday in response to Bruguiere's statements. "We have nothing to do with any illegal organization," he said.

"We don't know Ahmed Ressam or Fateh Kamel," Korkmaz said. "We don't approve of the actions of any terrorist organization in the world."

French investigators found in the 1990s that "several members of Fateh Kamel's network worked at the IHH as a cover," Bruguiere said. "It was too systematic and too widespread for the NGO (non-governmental organization) not to know" their real goal, he said.

The former judge, renowned for tracking down convicted terrorist Carlos the Jackal, said he didn't believe the IHH could have been infiltrated by terrorists without its knowledge.

"It's hard to prove, but all elements of the investigation showed that part of the NGO served to hide jihad-type activities," Bruguiere said. "I'm convinced this was a clear strategy, known by IHH."

The judge said he was personally involved in a raid with French and Turkish police at IHH headquarters in Istanbul in 1998, where they found weapons, false documents and other "incriminating" material.

"It was clearly proven that some of the NGO's work was not charity, it was to provide a facade for moving funds, weapons and mujahedeen to and from Bosnia and Afghanistan" — areas focused on by Islamic militants then.

In Istanbul, Korkmaz, of IHH, confirmed the late '90s police raid but denied that any weapons were found and said there was no evidence found of links to militancy.

Bruguiere would not specify how many members of Kamel's terror cell worked at IHH or give their names, but he said one of the suspects, a man from Bosnia, appeared in another terror-related case as recently as 2005 — though there was no indication at the time that the man still had ties to IHH.

Elements within the charity supported jihadi operations in the 1990s, Bruguiere said, before adding: "I don't know whether they continued to do so" more recently.

"But it seemed clear at the time that it was thanks to a measure of political backing within the Turkish government that it (IHH) could continue to operate," despite the strong suspicions against it, Bruguiere said.

Bruguiere retired from the judiciary in 2007 when he took part in an election to become a lawmaker in the conservative party of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. He lost his bid.

Bruguiere, 67, is now the coordinator for the European Union in a terrorism finance tracking program jointly run with the United States.

In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Wednesday that "we know that IHH representatives have met with senior Hamas officials in Turkey, Syria, and Gaza over the past three years. That is obviously of great concern to us."

But, he said the U.S. could not "validate" that IHH has connections to al Qaida.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_eu/eu_gaza_ships_terror_ties#mwpphu-container

Nevermind that gas masks, bulletproof vests, night vision goggles, unmarked envelopes full of cash were found on the boat, that a lot of the so-called medicine getting delivered was out of date and that a number of the people on that boat weren't carrying passport or any form of identification and it's clear that they were in it for peace. ::)

OzmO

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 07:57:46 PM »
Ha.  How surprising that absent from this thread are all the GB'rs who were claiming "international waters", "international waters".  ::)

I was thinking that exactly.  An attack in "international waters" seemed legally wrong.  I still think the whole thing wasn't handled right regardless.   

George Whorewell

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 08:22:53 PM »
BF that just shows your ignorance of Palestinian culture and your Islamophobia.

One of the most popular meals served in Gaza is a soup consisting of ground up bits of night vision goggles, bullet proof vests and gas masks.

The cash in unmarked envelopes was a present for Mahmoud Abbas's daughters sweet 16.

Also, most of the passengers weren't carrying identification because most Muslims don't own pants that have pockets and Muslim women aren't allowed to wear pants.

Hope this helps.

Fury

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 08:40:44 PM »
BF that just shows your ignorance of Palestinian culture and your Islamophobia.

One of the most popular meals served in Gaza is a soup consisting of ground up bits of night vision goggles, bullet proof vests and gas masks.

The cash in unmarked envelopes was a present for Mahmoud Abbas's daughters sweet 16.

Also, most of the passengers weren't carrying identification because most Muslims don't own pants that have pockets and Muslim women aren't allowed to wear pants.

Hope this helps.

Hahahah! Indeed. It's not just groups linked to terrorists that travel internationally without any form of identification. I myself do it all the time. And it's OK that the Palestinians were dancing in the streets and handing out candy on 9/11 in celebration of the 3,000 Americans that died. They're allowed to do that as they're, you know, oppressed. They have their permanent victim status card aka "get out of jail free" card.



Not Arab enough?  I didn't see Darfur on that list of most obese nations while the West Bank and Gaza came in at 8th and 3rd for men and women, respectively.  So, where's their 'aid flotilla'? Or better yet, never mind that Sudan's Muslim president, who currently has a warrant out for his arrest for crimes against humanity for the Darfur genocide that took 1.5 million lives, was just elected to another 5-year term.  ::)
 
Ahh, fuck it. We're just islamophobes(TM), anyway.  :)


240 is Back

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 04:36:57 AM »
I don't know all the legal stuff...

But I do know (as was mentioned on msnbc's hardball last night)... "If Hamas was in Canada doing the exact same thing, the US response would have been a whole lot tougher than we saw on this video."

And it's true.  We would have sunk that boat and 10 just like it, and we would have all supported it too.  Like in Iraq, we would have told the world to stuff it, we're doing what we need to do. 

So while I am normally bored beyond belief with middle east politics, in this case I know that if it was happening here, and al-quida was bringing weapons to Cuba to shoot at us... we'd probably supports it in a major way.

Skip8282

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 02:36:52 PM »

But I do know (as was mentioned on msnbc's hardball last night)... "If Hamas was in Canada doing the exact same thing, the US response would have been a whole lot tougher than we saw on this video."



Any nation in the world would be doing the exact same thing in my opinion.

BF, as usual, hit the nail right on the head.  Feigned outrage.

And the UN condemning them while putting Malaysia, Libya, and Angola on the Human Rights Council just further demonstrates what a worthless joke that organization is.

Skip8282

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2010, 10:45:12 AM »
Bump...for the board retards still crying "International waters".  ::)

Lumberjack88

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 11:54:16 AM »
Hint: Dershowitz is a zionist? Franken would see is as legal too... maybe because he's a zionist? Well, I guess it would also surprise you to hear, that Biden also thinks that it was legal, although he is an avid Zionist...

George Whorewell

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 01:54:41 PM »
 ::)

Oh god. The Zionist conspiracy again. Why don't you do some actual reasearch into the use of naval blockades in world history and their  recognized legality instead of doing what all lazy and stupid people do when they can't win arguments with facts.

Ron

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 11:55:28 PM »

Lets make it simple.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, and vows for the destruction of Israel.  They don't even recognize it's right to exist. They don't even call it Israel, they call it the Zionist regime.

No ship is going to go through a blockade to Gaza with items that can be made into weapons.

If Hamas truly cared about the people there, they would negotiate, stop kidnapping people, and try to make life better. But they don't care.

In fact, just today, the leaders in Gaza said they dont EVEN WANT the 'humintarian' aid for the Gazan people.

Unreal -

Imagine if you had to deal with this terrorist organization 20 miles away from where you live.







The Hamas government in Gaza is apparently not interested in receiving the goods that were carried by the 'humanitarian' Turkey-sponsored flotilla Israel intercepted.

The IDF Spokesman said Wednesday that "As of right now, the State of Israel has loaded 20 trucks with various types of aid found onboard the flotilla. Expired medication, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys were among the aid found on the ships."
 
"Unfortunately, the Hamas terror organization is unwilling to accept the cargo and the trucks filled with humanitarian aid have not been allowed to enter the Gaza Strip. It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer of the humanitarian aid.

powerpack

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2010, 12:54:00 AM »
Lets make it simple.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, and vows for the destruction of Israel.  They don't even recognize it's right to exist. They don't even call it Israel, they call it the Zionist regime.

No ship is going to go through a blockade to Gaza with items that can be made into weapons.

If Hamas truly cared about the people there, they would negotiate, stop kidnapping people, and try to make life better. But they don't care.

In fact, just today, the leaders in Gaza said they dont EVEN WANT the 'humintarian' aid for the Gazan people.

Unreal -

Imagine if you had to deal with this terrorist organization 20 miles away from where you live.







The Hamas government in Gaza is apparently not interested in receiving the goods that were carried by the 'humanitarian' Turkey-sponsored flotilla Israel intercepted.

The IDF Spokesman said Wednesday that "As of right now, the State of Israel has loaded 20 trucks with various types of aid found onboard the flotilla. Expired medication, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys were among the aid found on the ships."
 
"Unfortunately, the Hamas terror organization is unwilling to accept the cargo and the trucks filled with humanitarian aid have not been allowed to enter the Gaza Strip. It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer of the humanitarian aid.

I agree

drkaje

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Re: Even left wing stooge Alan Dershowitz believes Israel acted legally
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2010, 03:26:48 AM »
Alan Dershowitz agrees with Israel and someone is surprised?