Vince - post re muscle hypertrophy

[Vince B]

Gym owner and champion bodybuilder Milos Sarcev had trouble getting his arms big enough to match his torso and legs. He tried just about everything and foolishly even oil injections that almost killed him. No one would say that Milos isn't highly intelligent. He is also extremely knowledgeable when it comes to training. I don't happen to agree with his specific methods of rapid training but if he can get results then he is obviously doing something right.

Okay, how come his arms failed to respond to his training? This isn't easy to explain. I have a theory about torso champions vs arm champions. Larry Scott was an arms-shoulders champion. Milos was a torso champion. My hunch is that torso guys have a really hard time putting sufficient mechanical tension on their arms. Oh, they do the exercises. When you watch them train you notice they swing a lot and the momentum allows them to use heavy weights. All impressed except the biceps. If you do not put mechanical tension specifically on the biceps they won't grow. You will swear you are training them hard but the results say otherwise. The triceps are relatively easy to get larger. The trick is finding specific exercises that isolate and target the muscles. You have to immobilize the upper arms and put the triceps in a stretched position for best results. Then you have to keep your elbows and shoulders still so that the arm rotates by triceps contractions alone. That again is more difficult to do than it seems. I have supervised person after person and just about everyone cheats. They use way too much weight and the only way they can lift those heavy weights is to cheat. So they change the angle of the shoulders and they don't reach back very far and they push the elbows out at the end. Many also lift the upper arms off the pads. When you do this you are cheating. The muscle won't be stressed and you are wasting your time. How do you know if you stressed your triceps? They will be quite sore the 3 days following that workout. If they are not sore then the workout wasn't effective and again you are wasting your time. If your muscles don't get sore my advice is to return to the gym and retrain them.

[Vince B]

The issue of training the whole body has been raised here. Well, don't worry about doing so much. That might be part of the reason so many stay the same. They are doing way too much and it isn't possible for all the muscles to grow all the time. So target some muscles and see what you need to do to get them to grow. When you know that you can then fit in other muscles while you rest the ones you just trained. You can combine bodyparts and hit them hard for a month then target other bodyparts. If you are growing in part of your body you tend to grow in adjoining muscles as well. I found this out when I did only arms for a month. My whole upper body responded and was larger. Don't worry about training everything because they won't atrophy while growth is occurring around them.

[Alexander D]

First of all that isn't what I recommend. Second, you have no idea what would happen if you did that protocol and ate plenty of extra food.

Last time you checked you accepted what just about everyone else believes. Is it any wonder, then, that so few trainees actually build huge muscles? I am wasting my time talking to knuckleheads.

You are a retard. End of story. You can postulate all you want about things, but you are still a retard.

[pellius]

By the way, Pellius, your early experiments with training were probably doomed to failure because of your inadequate calories. All that expensive protein being converted to energy but you still didn't eat enough to grow big muscles. No wonder you struggled for decades looking for the right method to make gains. Countless others have similar experiences.

 

Actually, when I first move to Cali and got a job at a gym I started living more the BBing life style. I ate all the time and got up to around 230 lbs. I was fat and any trace of abs was no where to be found. By my mid to late twenties I lost interest in BBing and focused more on fitness, athleticism and functional ability. I missed the whole Haney, Dorian and only caught the tail end (maybe 2004) of the Coleman era when I started trolling the BBing boards.
 

[pellius]

Know it all experts have arrived and added their 2 cents worth. Physiology isn't about belief. It is about what happens in muscles after certain stresses and the timetable of hypertrophy. It is my hunch that painful DOMS is an indication that growth is occurring in the target muscle. If the cause of the DOMS was a severe training session with reasonably heavy weights then there is no doubt in my mind that hypertrophy is occurring. There are some experiments that support this hypothesis. The trouble with most of the scientists in exercise science is that they are hardly interested in large muscles so don't do research that would settle these arguments.

In the meantime, we have to extrapolate, postulate and experiment with our bodies and see what happens. If something happens to us we might be on to something that would happen to everyone.

Why do muscles experience DOMS? That seems to be an odd response of the body to some kinds of exertion. Why have that soreness? What purpose does it serve? If we use evolutionary biology we can imagine that this DOMS has some benefit otherwise it wouldn't have evolved. Perhaps there is no benefit and that is just the way our muscles work that we inherited.

Could it be that the soreness is to discourage using the muscle and letting it rest?

[pellius]

try it and find out before u make any assumptions.
when something heals it inflamed and that causes soreness....

thats why nsaid pain relievers inhibit muscle growth,,, one of the pruposes to take them along with stopping inflammation is to stop the pain,,, inflmtion and pain are relative

I've heard that about NSAID such as Advil and Tylenol but has it been confirmed by any studies or is this just speculation?

[pellius]

You are a retard. End of story. You can postulate all you want about things, but you are still a retard.

So I will assume you will no longer be commenting on this thread and move along and not waste any more time on this retard.

[pellius]

12 hour a day work outs? Well, no one has tried them yet so it's true we don't know for sure what results it will yield but we can speculate. I'm sure most of us know what it's like to consistently work 12 hour days at your job. How do you feel after doing this for a few weeks? It would be safe to assume that your job does not match the activity level and intensity of a weight lifting session.

It is not always true that you actually have to do something or see it done to get a pretty good idea as to the results.
 

[Meso_z]

12 hour a day work outs? Well, no one has tried them yet so it's true we don't know for sure what results it will yield but we can speculate. I'm sure most of us know what it's like to consistently work 12 hour days at your job. How do you feel after doing this for a few weeks? It would be safe to assume that your job does not match the activity level and intensity of a weight lifting session.

It is not always true that you actually have to do something or see it done to get a pretty good idea as to the results.
 

well they work. as long as you dont hold a job. 

[Vince B]

Could it be that the soreness is to discourage using the muscle and letting it rest?

It is irrelevant what the body is trying to do to us when it is sore. Naturally we tend to not want to work sore muscles. However, my point is what happens if we don't completely rest the muscle and train it again on the 2 or 3rd day? Why did the fowl gain so much muscle in such a short time? I haven't examined the protocols used or if rest was part of the program. That would be important to know. Anecdotally I know from what I did that training every 3rd day was fine. Growth continued in a regular fashion and enthusiasm was exceedingly high because of the gains. The reason few have discovered this is because they literally do not believe it. Instead they believe that you grow when you rest. Yes, but rest for how long? Haycock and his Hypertrophy Specific Training advocated 48 hour intervals while my experience suggests every 3rd day. So twice a week isn't every 3rd day yet that is what many are doing. Close, but not quite good enough. As soon as you rest too long you encounter the repeated bout effect and this is quite hard to overcome.

[pellius]

It is irrelevant what the body is trying to do to us when it is sore. Naturally we tend to not want to work sore muscles. However, my point is what happens if we don't completely rest the muscle and train it again on the 2 or 3rd day? Why did the fowl gain so much muscle in such a short time? I haven't examined the protocols used or if rest was part of the program. That would be important to know. Anecdotally I know from what I did that training every 3rd day was fine. Growth continued in a regular fashion and enthusiasm was exceedingly high because of the gains. The reason few have discovered this is because they literally do not believe it. Instead they believe that you grow when you rest. Yes, but rest for how long? Haycock and his Hypertrophy Specific Training advocated 48 hour intervals while my experience suggests every 3rd day. So twice a week isn't every 3rd day yet that is what many are doing. Close, but not quite good enough. As soon as you rest too long you encounter the repeated bout effect and this is quite hard to overcome.

The point was brought up that what, if anything, is your body trying to tell by being sore. Pain is generally understood as a warning system sometimes to prevent injury and sometimes to prevent or discourage working hard. I think your body's natural inclination is to conserve energy and only exert itself when necessary for survival.

When the owner of the new and then novel Nautilus gym, Hank Grundman, who live in the condo that I worked as a security guard at 18 yrs, gave me that book, which I still have, of Arthur Jones' writings and bulletins, one of the principles that fused in my brain was that your body required no less than 48 hours or rest between training sessions but no more than 96 hours. He believed, though changed his mind later in life, that after 96 hours your muscles start to "decondition."

Some have propose that because it takes a lot of the body's resources to develop new muscle that it will not so readily give it up so easily. I always read these great claims by HIT devotees that when they take a week off they always come back bigger and stronger. That has never, ever been the case for me. Whenever I have taken an entire week off training, usually due to illness, injury or travel, I always come back weaker. That's why I never miss a workout when I'm healthy. Even if I'm beat and tired as hell I still go in and do something. I just try to do to the same number of reps with the same weight to positive failure and back off on the intensity variables such as forced reps, burns, drop sets.
 

[Vince B]

Arthur Jones was a genius. No doubt about that. He was, however, not a bodybuilder in any significant way. He did discover things and did a lot of research because he didn't want to give his money to the government.

When you read what Arthur writes it is refreshing and logical. The key analogy that Arthur used to describe how muscles contracted was to use a freight train with box cars. Unfortunately, the sliding filament theory isn't exactly like box cars in a train. The logic comes crashing down on that simple mistake.

What about our bodies and survival? Can we imagine humans in very early days as homo sapiens. Suppose one of our very distant relatives was out hunting and encountered an animal that he couldn't conquer. Suppose he was totally exhausted from the struggle. The next day he awoke sore but hungry. Would this individual be able to get up and hunt again even though his muscles were sore? I have no doubt he would have. Therefore, survival would have made it likely that we inherited this soreness to get us to rest but if we didn't we could still make big efforts and fight again and again. To harvest this potential today we have to ignor the pain and retrain before the soreness goes away.

[pellius]

Arthur Jones was a genius. No doubt about that. He was, however, not a bodybuilder in any significant way. He did discover things and did a lot of research because he didn't want to give his money to the government.

When you read what Arthur writes it is refreshing and logical. The key analogy that Arthur used to describe how muscles contracted was to use a freight train with box cars. Unfortunately, the sliding filament theory isn't exactly like box cars in a train. The logic comes crashing down on that simple mistake.

What about our bodies and survival? Can we imagine humans in very early days as homo sapiens. Suppose one of our very distant relatives was out hunting and encountered an animal that he couldn't conquer. Suppose he was totally exhausted from the struggle. The next day he awoke sore but hungry. Would this individual be able to get up and hunt again even though his muscles were sore? I have no doubt he would have. Therefore, survival would have made it likely that we inherited this soreness to get us to rest but if we didn't we could still make big efforts and fight again and again. To harvest this potential today we have to ignor the pain and retrain before the soreness goes away.

Actually, I watched a National Geographic special on cheetahs that may be similar to your analogy. Cheetahs are a very specialize creatures built mainly for speed at the expense of other attributes (mostly size and strength). Each pursuit requires a tremendous amount of energy and it is estimated that a cheetah has maybe up to 3 or 4, maybe even 5, attempts before it's finished. Unlike lioness, it's a solitary hunter and doesn't have partners to take up the slack. With each failure the chances of success is a bit diminished until by the fourth or fifth attempt it becomes so weak, due to energy expenditure and lack of energy replacement, that even if it is successful, as in the case they featured in this documentary, where the exhausted cheetah was lucky enough to stumble upon an injured prey. His prize was lost to other predators, in this case hyenas, as the feline was too weak to defend itself and it's catch.

When I hear somebody tell me that it's all in the mind and you can conquer biological and physiological limitations inherent in all corporeal beings through sheer force of will I'll show you someone who has never pushed himself beyond the limitations imposed by pain, your body's structural integrity and cardiovascular stress. To the point where it simply stops functioning and you often lose consciousness. To the motivated and disciplined individual the weak link is always the body not the mind and spirit.

[Lion666]

I've heard that about NSAID such as Advil and Tylenol but has it been confirmed by any studies or is this just speculation?

yeah ive read a few articles on line,,, ergo-log, pub med etc...
along with actually noticing effects myself taking celebrex yrs back and training... usually with a nice wrkout u feel sore,,, tired whatever u feel the next day, point is u recognize that utrained the day before,,, taking that crap after a train ssn and tthe next day,, u feel very very dif.. it almsot seems like it took longer to recover,,, the soreness wasnt as bad but lastd a longer time.
i was at the dr and he tried to prescribe me that crap or stuff like it advil,, clebrx, wnat ev all same garbage to me,,, i refused, he asked why and i told him about the diminished muscle gains,, he agreed and acknowledge the same so...
try it and c what u think...
theres enough info out there for me tho... besides simple fact is it targets that inflamtion and thats the going on that repairs you so..

[Lion666]

You are a retard. End of story. You can postulate all you want about things, but you are still a retard.

"If you keep a muscle sore, it should keep growing..." Say what? I could train triceps every day, 30 sets and FRY THEM 7 days per week and I am pretty certain that at the end of this experiment my triceps wouldn't have grown at all.

Last time I checked, training breaks down muscle... rest, recovery/food causes growth.

lets talk about experiences and routines that ppl actually did instead of be "pretty certain" or using imagination and common mainstream accepted theory on hypertrophy to determine an outcome.  no secret this thread goes against the grain.  btw, anyone that adds and offers up any type of training knowledge that has thought behind it, whether accpepted or not is far from a tard... however ppl that makes claims and bash others are just that.

good thread goin so far... anybody else with some cool "outlandish" muscle building info, training, recovery etc.

[Vince B]

I looked for the article by Antonio about the quail and this is one study that I found. Interestingly the protocol was what I concluded. Resistance every 3rd day.



J Appl Physiol. 1993 Sep;75(3):1263-71.
Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia.Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.
Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-9039.
AbstractIntermittent stretch of the anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle produces fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia (J. Appl. Physiol. 74: 1893-1898, 1993). This study was undertaken to determine if a progressive increase in load and duration of stretch would induce extremely large muscle fiber areas or if the fibers would reach a critical size before the onset of fiber hyperplasia. Weights ranging from 10 to 35% of the bird's mass were attached to the right wing of 26 adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The stretch protocol was as follows: day 1 (10% wt), days 2 and 3 (rest), day 4 (15% wt), days 5-7 (rest), day 8 (20% wt), days 9 and 10 (rest), days 11-14 (25% wt), days 15 and 16 (rest), and days 17-38 (35% wt). Birds were killed after 12, 16, 20, 24, and 28 days of stretch not including rest days. Muscle mass increased 174% (12 days), 196% (16 days), 225% (20 days), 264% (24 days), and 318% (28 days). Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days). Fiber number, which was measured histologically, increased significantly by 82% only in the 28 days of stretch group. The percentage of slow tonic fibers did not change for any of the time points examined.

























































































































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J Appl Physiol. 1993 Sep;75(3):1263-71.
Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia.Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.
Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-9039.
AbstractIntermittent stretch of the anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle produces fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia (J. Appl. Physiol. 74: 1893-1898, 1993). This study was undertaken to determine if a progressive increase in load and duration of stretch would induce extremely large muscle fiber areas or if the fibers would reach a critical size before the onset of fiber hyperplasia. Weights ranging from 10 to 35% of the bird's mass were attached to the right wing of 26 adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The stretch protocol was as follows: day 1 (10% wt), days 2 and 3 (rest), day 4 (15% wt), days 5-7 (rest), day 8 (20% wt), days 9 and 10 (rest), days 11-14 (25% wt), days 15 and 16 (rest), and days 17-38 (35% wt). Birds were killed after 12, 16, 20, 24, and 28 days of stretch not including rest days. Muscle mass increased 174% (12 days), 196% (16 days), 225% (20 days), 264% (24 days), and 318% (28 days). Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days). Fiber number, which was measured histologically, increased significantly by 82% only in the 28 days of stretch group. The percentage of slow tonic fibers did not change for any of the time points examined.

























































































































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J Appl Physiol. 1993 Sep;75(3):1263-71.
Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia.Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.
Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-9039.
AbstractIntermittent stretch of the anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle produces fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia (J. Appl. Physiol. 74: 1893-1898, 1993). This study was undertaken to determine if a progressive increase in load and duration of stretch would induce extremely large muscle fiber areas or if the fibers would reach a critical size before the onset of fiber hyperplasia. Weights ranging from 10 to 35% of the bird's mass were attached to the right wing of 26 adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The stretch protocol was as follows: day 1 (10% wt), days 2 and 3 (rest), day 4 (15% wt), days 5-7 (rest), day 8 (20% wt), days 9 and 10 (rest), days 11-14 (25% wt), days 15 and 16 (rest), and days 17-38 (35% wt). Birds were killed after 12, 16, 20, 24, and 28 days of stretch not including rest days. Muscle mass increased 174% (12 days), 196% (16 days), 225% (20 days), 264% (24 days), and 318% (28 days). Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days). Fiber number, which was measured histologically, increased significantly by 82% only in the 28 days of stretch group. The percentage of slow tonic fibers did not change for any of the time points examined.