Bodybuilding training: "Heavy weights" or "stimulate, don't annihilate"?

[cephissus]

If you get injured your either an idiot or a massive pussy. How many guys do you know that have gotten injured in the gym? and dont use a pro as an example.

Ive never seen a person benching 3 plates that were small. I see guys benching 1.5-2 plates every day at the gym who look like shit.

When I first got really focused on bodybuilding I started going to bevs powerhouse and the first thing I noticed about the big guys I wanted to look like,,was that they were lifting heavy ass weights.

Um, well myself.  Torn both rotator cuffs, torn a tendon in my knee, possibly fucked a disc in my lower back, who knows what else.  I've come to the conclusion that statements like "lift intensely with heavy weights" and "really push yourself" etc. mean something quite different to me than to most people.  I recently decided to take several months off from lifting because my body doesn't seem to work anymore.  I can't get a pump, nor any muscle sensation really, and all my joints hurt.  I've really tried everything over the years and it only got worse and worse.

The one thing that remained consistent, though, was my firm belief that I had to work absolutely as hard as possible.  I would never quit unless I felt destroyed, and even then I always felt like I could do more.  It was very hard to convince myself I was working hard enough.  I suppose I should have payed more attention to how other people lift, instead of how they talk, because it seems like they don't put themselves through nearly as much punishment, on average, in the gym that I would.

I was just never satisfied with a workout unless I felt like it had really exhausted me.  In the end I think this is what did me in.

[apply85]

WHo hasnt torn something... shoullder, upper back muscle, quad strain, cuff strain, funny feelin in my right trap for like a year that I don't fully understand lol

[Palpatine Q]

I've never suffered a gym related injury.

The only time I've ever been hurt seriously in my life I fell of a 20. Foot roof onto cement..wasn't pretty LOL.

But the gym....I learned a long time ago from an experienced dude that its not necessary to grind yourself into dust every workout . Thank God I learned that early in the game....probably the reason I'm still banging away now with no problems

[MCWAY]

Heavy weight school of thought:

1.  More weight = more muscle size.  Aim to get more reps or add weight to the bar every workout.
2.  Go to failure.  The muscle won't grow if you don't push it beyond its limits.
3.  Often sets and reps are very important for those subscribing to this mentality.  They tend to focus on the 5-8 rep range and may even record their workouts in a log book.

"Stimulate, don't annihilate" school of thought:

1.  Use as little weight as you can while still fatiguing the muscles.
2.  You don't have to go to failure, doing so can lead to injury / "overtraining."
3.  Reps should be very smooth.  The last rep in the set won't look much different from the first (no grinding it out).
4.  Use a weight you can control.  The positive portion of a rep should be explosive, while the negative should be controlled.  Yes, even the last rep of a set (no grinding).
5.  Reps and sets are less important.  Getting a pump, and feeling the muscle on every rep is more important.  If you stop feeling the muscle, then you should end your exercise or workout.

Which is better?

It seems like most bodybuilders and bodybuilding media sites say heavy weights are king, but is this really what they believe?  Sure there is the occasional ronnie coleman who lifts very, very heavy weights, but people seem to overlook the fact that he's also very strong, and doesn't struggle with these weights that much.

I was just looking at this video of lee haney today,

who of course is known for coining the phrase "stimulate, don't annihilate" and was surprised at some of the weights he was using: 115 (?) for barbell curls, 200 for lat pulldowns, 125 for preacher curls, maybe low 100s for leg extension? GH15 repeatedly tells us that bodybuilders usually lift much heavier for their videos than for their everyday training.

how about this one of nasser and jay?

Bench press with two plates?  And what were those dumbbells?  90 lbs, 100, 110?  Flyes with 60 lbs dumbbells?

Shawn ray... squatting with 3.5 plates, every rep SUPER SMOOTH, doesn't even look like a problem at all for him.  If he can build the legs he had with just 3.5 plates on the bar, what business do all the gymrats have putting on 3-4 plates and killing themselves, only to end up with little twig legs?

How about this one?

I assume this video shows every consecutive set of lat pulldowns he did for the workout.  I don't know about your gym, but I routinely see kids looking like they put twice the effort into their sets, and probably using more weight too!

Is the whole "heavy weights" strategy just another brainwashing tool to sell legal, non-steroid muscle building "solutions" (in the form of training books, personal training, supplements, and the like)?  Is it a ploy used by bodybuilders to further enhance their image (as hardworking, strong athletes)?

Or is there something to be said for all those kids deadlifting four plates, struggling like crazy on each rep, huffing and puffing only to end up with the back thickness of their little sister?

Those are contest videos, in which usually the guys train a bit lighter. Haney was no slouch in the strength department. He probably did most of his heavier lifts in the off-season.

As for the kids you see in your gym, dollars to donuts, they're probably only squatting a quarter of the way down. And, during their benches, they bounce the bar off their chest and arch their backs to the point that either their training partner is about to blow them, or they're going to get their nads chopped off by the ceiling fan.

I rarely train to failure; when I do, it's usually the last set or two on an exercise. And, then that's on a machine, where I don't have to worry about injuring myself if my strength gives out.

[cephissus]

I've never suffered a gym related injury.

The only time I've ever been hurt seriously in my life I fell of a 20. Foot roof onto cement..wasn't pretty LOL.

But the gym....I learned a long time ago from an experienced dude that its not necessary to grind yourself into dust every workout . Thank God I learned that early in the game....probably the reason I'm still banging away now with no problems

Groink, I appreciate your posts regarding training.  Regardless of all the nonsense surrounding you I believe you know what you are doing in the gym and don't embellish it.  If I could train with one guy from getbig it would probably be you.

[Papper]

At first it felt weird stopping early because I pretty much felt programmed to always go to failure or else I wasn't working hard. I never really had that much trouble figuring out when was 1-2 away from failure. When your push on say bench slows down noticeably and where you know you could gut it out and get another rep or two but u would be close to failing, rack the weight.

I might just try this approach over this fall.

[Moen]

Um, well myself.  Torn both rotator cuffs, torn a tendon in my knee, possibly fucked a disc in my lower back, who knows what else.  I've come to the conclusion that statements like "lift intensely with heavy weights" and "really push yourself" etc. mean something quite different to me than to most people.  I recently decided to take several months off from lifting because my body doesn't seem to work anymore.  I can't get a pump, nor any muscle sensation really, and all my joints hurt.  I've really tried everything over the years and it only got worse and worse.

The one thing that remained consistent, though, was my firm belief that I had to work absolutely as hard as possible.  I would never quit unless I felt destroyed, and even then I always felt like I could do more.  It was very hard to convince myself I was working hard enough.  I suppose I should have payed more attention to how other people lift, instead of how they talk, because it seems like they don't put themselves through nearly as much punishment, on average, in the gym that I would.

I was just never satisfied with a workout unless I felt like it had really exhausted me.  In the end I think this is what did me in.

Exactly. You trained too hard, got several injuries and are basically done. I've seen this so many times already. Train, don't strain should be everyones motto. It's not the training that's going to make much of a difference anyway...

[cephissus]

Exactly. You trained too hard, got several injuries and are basically done. I've seen this so many times already. Train, don't strain should be everyones motto. It's not the training that's going to make much of a difference anyway...

Are you saying I won't recover... 

[Papper]

Are you saying I won't recover... 

you WILL recover my brother. maybe not in an bodybuilding sense. but you will recover fully and be happy, in the true definition.

youre welcome. 

[Moen]

Are you saying I won't recover... 

Yep 

[RC Money]

WHo hasnt torn something... shoullder, upper back muscle, quad strain, cuff strain, funny feelin in my right trap for like a year that I don't fully understand lol

Sounds about right, top it off with a pec and knee injury.