Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!

[PJim]

I'll tell you right now that you will never get anything productive out of arguing with tbombz. His insights are of minuscule value and he'll never change his opinion. You can throw all the science you want at him and he won't give a shit. He's arrogant and poorly educated beyond repair... a bad mix.

Don't waste your time.

x2

[Growth NOOB]

I'll tell you right now that you will never get anything productive out of arguing with tbombz. His insights are of minuscule value and he'll never change his opinion. You can throw all the science you want at him and he won't give a shit. He's arrogant and poorly educated beyond repair... a bad mix.

Don't waste your time.

x2

I'm not going out of my way to insult him, since he never really directly insulted me, but he comes across as a complete amateur. He argues points no one is discussing, as if that refutes anything I have said.  He throws out ridiculous absolutes that if you can't prove "x", then "Y" (his position) must be true, along with other pretty juvenile and poorly thought out arguments.  Towards the end, I really suspected I was being trolled but apparently he is being serious.

[tbombz]

morality exists, it's a conception of right and wrong.

as for the rest of your post:

1.  logic is a function of a brain.  it exists inside your mind.  the statement 2 + 2 = 4 has no meaning, or even existence, outside of a mind.  this is pretty much the definition of subjective.

2.  it's easy to get caught up in "objective facts," because some things seem irrefutable.  nonetheless, every method we have of verifying something is subjective, there is no "independent viewpoint" because every view is attached to someone.  you can't "get around" yourself in the attempt to verify a fact.

3.  you say "when you do right, you feel good," "a pure conscience is worth more than all the treasures in the world," and "what is good for one, is good for all."  However, different people have different constitutions, and consequently feel good in different circumstances.  Murder might make one person feel terrible, and another feel great -- it might even make the first person feel great depending on the circumstances.  People's consciences also differ.  Some people's consciences make them physically ill when forced to lie, some people do it without suffering the slightest bad feeling.  Consequently, what is good for one is not good for all.  The concept "taste" was created to reflect this fact.  We readily accept people having different taste in food, fashion, culture, women, etc., even sexuality! so why not morality -- or, taste in right and wrong -- as well?

4.  as for "love your neighbor" thanks for the reiteration but I understand the concept... my qualm is with the application.  even jesus, who preached "turning the other cheek" drove the profiteers from the temple grounds in a fit of rage.  certainly he cast a dark cloud over their day.  didn't he realize they were having so much fun, ripping people off and desecrating the lord's home?  sure, he made a lot of fans that day, but only at the expense of others' wellbeing.  He made these people feel bad, cut into their profits, and sent them packing, violently!

"love your neighbor" and "do unto others" are just slick ways of convincing people to accept your morals.  those who espouse these mantras just want everything their way (like everyone else), and refuse to acknowledge the fact that different people have different ideas of right and wrong, etc.  someone might get into a fight with me, and I cry out "do unto others!"  he could easily, and very truthfully respond, "I WANT you to fight me!"

in reality, people think more along the lines of: "love your neighbor" unless he "doesnt do unto you, as you wish he would," and then gang up with enough like minded people that suddenly they've created an entire culture which ostracizes and punishes those with "bad" (ie different) values in the name of the "greater good" (ie the good of the mob).  It's no different than "might makes right" though people wish it were so...

bro, this song reminded me of our conversation. the lyrics are a great example of what morality is and why it is so.

Sometimes in our lives, we all have pain, we all have sorrow.
But if we are wise, we know that there's always tomorrow.
Lean on me, when you're not strong and I'll be your friend.
I'll help you carry on,
for it won't be long 'til I'm gonna need
somebody to lean on.
Please swallow your pride, if have things you need to borrow.
For no one can fill those needs that you won't let show.

[tbombz]

I'm not going out of my way to insult him, since he never really directly insulted me, but he comes across as a complete amateur. He argues points no one is discussing, as if that refutes anything I have said.  He throws out ridiculous absolutes that if you can't prove "x", then "Y" (his position) must be true, along with other pretty juvenile and poorly thought out arguments.  Towards the end, I really suspected I was being trolled but apparently he is being serious.

i didnt see this reply.

such statements as "if not X, then Y" are absolutely useful and logical.

for example, "if not nonexistent, then existent"


and related to our previous discussion "if not natural, then supernatural"