Refeed days during diet, please xplain the logic behind it

[galeniko]

a

[Borracho]

why not just a refeed cheat meal instead?

 
Theoretically, one purpose of a refeed is to raise certain hormones that go out of whack from dieting such as leptin which should make it easier for one to keep on losing fat. One cheat meal will only do this to a certain extent.

after what point in diet is it best to do the refeed?why?

It is said that the leaner you are the more frequent a refeed should be. I don't remember the exact recommendation but someone who is higher in bf will not require refeeds as often as a lean individual would.

doesnt it hinder fatloss?

It's supposed to help actually not only physiologically but also mentally.

other than slight carb up before a show i dont see a point in them

And this is where I now agree with you where before I thought they were needed. They just prolong the dieting process and like you I'd rather be done with it already.

I'll look for some articles and post them here later.



 

[Borracho]

Best I could do was find some articles online about leptin.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/index.php?s=leptin

But if you're interested I have some e-books outlining when, how, and why to refeed.

[Mitch]

It's relevant only if your metabolism begin to slow down. Then the refeeding can bring it back to its normal pace so you can continue to burn fat. Otherwise, the less you will eat, the less you will burn fat. You need to keep your metabolism as high as possible while on diet. Otherwise after a while you will just put your body into sleep.

My 2 cents.

[Mitch]

Best I could do was find some articles online about leptin.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/index.php?s=leptin

But if you're interested I have some e-books outlining when, how, and why to refeed.

Here an interesting article about leptin too. Pretty easy to understand.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/control_leptin_and_control_your_leanness

[Borracho]

It's relevant only if your metabolism begin to slow down. Then the refeeding can bring it back to its normal pace so you can continue to burn fat. Otherwise, the less you will eat, the less you will burn fat. You need to keep your metabolism as high as possible while on diet. Otherwise after a while you will just put your body into sleep.

My 2 cents.

I think they are much more useful for true naturals cause every little bit helps. If you're on than you don't need to worry as much about the muscle eating away at itself and simply that will help you get leaner without the need to do a refeed imo. Good article btw!

[The Onion]

Contrary to what the fitness mags want you to believe it's very hard to get your metabolism to slow down. I would only consider doing re-feeds after really prolonged dieting and achieving very low body fat.

Check out Lyle McDonald's "The fat loss handbook" for some advice on re-feeds.

As a side note, you could go completely without food for up to 72 hours without it slowing down your metabolism. After 36 hours your metabolic rate actually increases.

[dj181]

As a side note, you could go completely without food for up to 72 hours without it slowing down your metabolism. After 36 hours your metabolic rate actually increases.

just curious, did you get this from IF?

[arce1988]

  get ripped, keep calories super low, and and super clean, five to six days per week... then cheat and pig out... rinse, repeat...

[The Onion]

just curious, did you get this from IF?

Think I first read about it in Brad Pilon's "Eat stop eat", so yeah - it's a book about intermittent fasting.

"The effect of fasting for 12, 36 and 72 h was studied in twenty-nine healthy subjects (seventeen women and twelve men). Measurements were made of cardiovascular variables, metabolic rate, respiratory exchange ratio, plasma metabolites, insulin, thyroid hormones and catecholamines. During starvation there were no significant changes in blood pressure, whilst heart rate (beats/min) increased at 36 h and remained elevated after 72 h (12 h 62.5 (SE 1., 36 h 68.0 (SE 1.9), 72 h 69.2 (SE 1.; P < 0.001). Forearm blood flow (FBF) increased progressively from 3.32 (SE 0.20) to 6.21 (SE 0.46) ml/100 ml per min (P < 0.001). Resting metabolic rate (kJ/min) was significantly increased after 36 h of starvation (12 h 4.60 (SE 0.14), 36 h 4.88 (SE 0.13), P < 0.001), but was not significantly different from the 12 h value after 72 h (72 h 4.72 (SE 0.15) P = 0.06). The respiratory exchange ratio fell progressively from 0.80 to 0.76 to 0.72 (P < 0.001). Blood glucose fell, whilst plasma glycerol and beta-hydroxybutyrate rose and plasma lactate did not change. Plasma insulin and free triiodothyronine fell during starvation. Plasma adrenaline and noradrenaline were unchanged at 36 h, but were significantly increased after 72 h. Both sexes showed a similar pattern of response to starvation, although absolute values of blood pressure, forearm blood flow, metabolic rate and plasma catecholamines were higher in men than women. Acute starvation produces profound cardiovascular and metabolic changes which are not explained by the accompanying hormonal changes." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8172872

[arce1988]

  add shgh to your cardio and weights and then diet down until you are super ripped

[The Onion]

yeah esp on steroids,i dont see how metabolism gets slower.
and i can tell from experience, as i know and did diet myself to low bodyfat levels, infact i never go above 12%.
so this leaves me with some room to play around, and when id diet for 6 days hard and then have a huge refeed day and rinse repeat that process, id either stagnate as far as fat loss goes or even start to gain weight slowly, but definitely not become harder/leaner.
if i do just one cheat meal in a week, yeah then i still lose fat overal.
ofc after a cheat day,one will look very full and all that, but what about the 2 days after that?not so good anymore.

maybe this works until some 10-12% bf, but further down than that, this refeed thing is contraproductive, esp on steroids.

ive tried all the aproaches, the fastest way to lose fat is having no cheat nothing for me.

Re-feeds are pretty unnecessary if you're above 10-12% body fat in my opinion. Borracho has already mentioned the correlation to leptin. With that said, do whatever works for you. I've seen your most recent pics and you seem to be heading in the right direction. Just keep going. 

[Papper]

Here an interesting article about leptin too. Pretty easy to understand.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/control_leptin_and_control_your_leanness

"You permabulkers, take note: as you continue to overeat, triglyceride stores increase, causing fat cells to produce more leptin. With so much leptin around, leptin receptors become desensitized. Eventually they just tune out, which has big consequences. You have plenty of fat but your brain doesn't know it."

[Mitch]

but metabolism will stay high as long the muscle stay there.right?

Not necessarily. Numerous factors may affect your metabolism: stress level, sleep (quality and quantity), tiredness, stimulants, physical activity, state of mind (psychological factors...), etc.
And calorie for calorie, the quality of your meal also has an influence on your metabolism (hot or cold, spicy, cell structure, pH, vitamins, ...?)

I would say: if you are sleepy, sleep. If you are still sleepy when you wake up, eat.

It's not very scientific, but imho, that's the logic behind the refeeding.

[The Onion]

Most people really shouldn't be afraid of a lowered metabolism. It's an exaggerated fear imo.

Another interesting study. Every other day fasting for three weeks does not lower metabolism.

"Prolonged dietary restriction increases the life span in rodents. Some evidence suggests that alternate-day fasting may also prolong the life span. OBJECTIVE: Our goal was to determine whether alternate-day fasting is a feasible method of dietary restriction in nonobese humans and whether it improves known biomarkers of longevity. DESIGN: Nonobese subjects (8 men and 8 women) fasted every other day for 22 d. Body weight, body composition, resting metabolic rate (RMR), respiratory quotient (RQ), temperature, fasting serum glucose, insulin, free fatty acids, and ghrelin were assessed at baseline and after 21 d (12-h fast) and 22 d (36-h fast) of alternate-day fasting. Visual analogue scales were used to assess hunger weekly. RESULTS: Subjects lost 2.5 +/- 0.5% of their initial body weight (P < 0.001) and 4 +/- 1% of their initial fat mass (P < 0.001). Hunger increased on the first day of fasting and remained elevated (P < 0.001). RMR and RQ did not change significantly from baseline to day 21, but RQ decreased on day 22 (P < 0.001), which resulted in an average daily increase in fat oxidation of > or =15 g. Glucose and ghrelin did not change significantly from baseline with alternate-day fasting, whereas fasting insulin decreased 57 +/- 4% (P < 0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Alternate-day fasting was feasible in nonobese subjects, and fat oxidation increased. However, hunger on fasting days did not decrease, perhaps indicating the unlikelihood of continuing this diet for extended periods of time. Adding one small meal on a fasting day may make this approach to dietary restriction more acceptable." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Alternate-day%20fasting%20in%20nonobese%20subjects%3A%20effects%20on%20body%20weight%2C%20%20body%20composition%2C%20and%20energy%20metabolism

[The Onion]

yeah, i dont see it either for above 12% state.
and when lower than 10% theres not much room for it, calorie-wise.
it wont destroy a physique, but it will temporarly halt the fatloss.
yeah, the leptin therory im familiar with, but that can be tricked with some slightly larger meals i think.
also the very low carbs sidefect of lower thyroid rlease can be fixed with a bit of carbs.

dont wory about me, im 1maybe2 percent bodyfat away from where i want to be, the purpose of this thread is to share peoples knowledge , experiences and opinions.

I concur.

Aside from carbs you could also supplement with iodine and selenium to "assist" your thyroid hormones. Some algae are rich in the above and most are really cheap.

[Marty Champions]

epic rehashing late 90's early 2000 discussions on leptin and fatloss