Author Topic: The Michael Jordan of baseball  (Read 8338 times)

HockeyFightFan

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2013, 02:11:51 PM »
Those three are the only three since Williams retired (1960) to hit above .380 in a season

1941 Ted Williams 185/456 = .406 (played in 143 games)
1977 Rod Carew 239/616 = .388 (played in 155 games)
1980 George Brett 175/449 = .390 (played in 117 games)
1994 Tony Gwynn 165/419 = .394 (played in 110 games)

Williams was a badass 8)


Williams hit .400 for a season once in his career? Didn't Rogers Hornsby and Ty Cobb hit over .400 three (maybe four?) times in a season during their career? I know it's two different eras, but Hornsby did hit .424 one year.

snx

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2013, 02:16:57 PM »
Williams hit .400 for a season once in his career? Didn't Rogers Hornsby and Ty Cobb hit over .400 three (maybe four?) times in a season during their career? I know it's two different eras, but Hornsby did hit .424 one year.

Yes. But it had been 11 years since anyone had hit .400 when Williams did it. Baseball had changed, or at least was in the throes of major change, when Williams did it.

And yes, Hornsby was a machine. For my money, I would have taken him over Cobb any day.

HockeyFightFan

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
Yes. But it had been 11 years since anyone had hit .400 when Williams did it. Baseball had changed, or at least was in the throes of major change, when Williams did it.

And yes, Hornsby was a machine. For my money, I would have taken him over Cobb any day.

Williams hit .406 in his third season, which was about 50 points higher than his first two seasons, and about 40 points higher than he ever hit again.

Without being sacreligious, maybe it was a bit of a fluke?

Hulkotron

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2013, 02:25:04 PM »
He hit .388 once late in his career.

funk51

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2013, 02:26:29 PM »
He hit .388 once late in his career.
1957 see earlier post. ::)
F

Hulkotron

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2013, 02:29:17 PM »
1957 see earlier post. ::)

Nobody was talking to you spunkof51men.

The Abdominal Snoman

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2013, 02:42:20 PM »
Please.  In the strike shortened year of 96 Larry Walker was on fire and was close to 400 and a little over for early part of the season.  He was having an amazing season then it just ended.

The players in the 90's aren't close to the players today when it comes to speed and defense...Every other sport has evolved leap years in terms of speed compared to the 60s-70's-80's and even 90's...Everyone today works out and eats relatively good...The 90's were really the beginning of it. It's just harder to see the actually evolution of baseball today compared to other sports because it's such a slow game. But the evolution is there.

Watch a hockey game in the early 90's and watch one today. The speed of the whole game is unbelievable today...Players as a whole are so much faster. Well, its the same with baseball...Imop we won't see another .400 hitter. The defense is just too good today and will only continue to get better as a whole.

snx

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2013, 02:53:17 PM »
Williams hit .406 in his third season, which was about 50 points higher than his first two seasons, and about 40 points higher than he ever hit again.

Without being sacreligious, maybe it was a bit of a fluke?

I agree - it was a fluke year. He approached it again only once (as someone pointed out, in '57). He was as good in 57 as he was the year he hit .406. Most would say "how can a man who hits .388 be as good as when he hit .406". It's all when you adjust for the league's average production. When you look at how productive the average player was in 57 versus 41, you'll see that Ted was as good relative to the average ballplayer in 41 as he was in 57.

And it's not sacriligeous (sp?) to say it was a fluke year. He had two of them in his career. Now, his average years were ridiculously good for any player, ever.

How good was his '57 season? Well, he never came close to it (except in '41) and to put it into context, no one else did until Bonds came along. Bonds crushed Williams' best ever season an amazing 4 times in a row. Ridiculous. But we can all say "steroids".

So how many guys went over a 200 OPS+ between the year when Wiliams did it in 57, and the steroid era? It happened a grand total of 5 times. Once by Mantle, once by McCovey, once by Brett (the year he almost hit .400) and then twice by Bonds in the early 90s before the juice took hold. So yes, Williams' year was a fluke. Even amongst contemporaries in his era, the only guys who ever produced an OPS+ over 200 in a season were Ruth, Gherig, Foxx, Cobb and Hornsby.

Cobb did it only once. Hornsby did it 4 times. Ruth did it a ridiculous amount of times (LOL)...

So in a long-winded way, you're right to point out that Williams fluked out in 41, and in 57. Total flukes and anomalous years in even his great career. The only guys who didn't fluke out by crushing it with an OPS+ over 200...well, there's three guys. Ruth, Bonds, and Hornsby. Those men did it often enough to have one think they were truly that great...even greater than Williams.

Another interesting thing I point out above...no man had ever hit 200 OPS+ more than once after Williams did it. Only 3 guys had ever done it even once. Bonds did it twice before (some would argue) he ever touched the juice. That's why I think Bonds deserves to be in the HOF. His juice numbers were crazy, but he was HOF bound before he ever found the stuff. He was a once-in-a-generation hitter before his first needle - easily qualifying for HOF. The needle helped him become the second best ever.

Baseball writers are prissy bitches.

The Abdominal Snoman

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2013, 02:57:09 PM »
Babe's stats are simply retarded.

I'm a huge Ruth fan but there's no doubt the guy went up against a lot of cans. A lot of the pitchers back then and all the way up through the 60's and into the 70's threw over 300 innings a season. Most of these guys had nothing in the tank when they took the mound half way through the season. 3 days rest was the norm...In the Ruth days, pitchers would threw back to back days or every other day...The mindset was to just throw and eat up innings... So some guy who might have been able to throw 85 to 90 mph(which was fast back then), would be throwing in the mid 70's after the all star break...Most of the pitchers had to throw a shitload of off speed stuff and breaking balls. So much easier to hit when you know a guy has a rubber arm and is only going to throw off speed shit. Hell a 70+ mph fastball is basically batting practice pitching...But no doubt that's what Ruth faced more often than not...

The Abdominal Snoman

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2013, 03:04:37 PM »
Tony Gwynn I believe also hit near .400 a few times and he was a fat fuck.

Bonds in 2004 was ridiculous.  He put up Little League numbers against the best in the world who were all on an all-you-can-eat PED buffet too.

When Bonds went from using a little test and deca in his early days to full on bodybuilding diet of gear after 2001, he was comically to watch...In 04 he basically didn't miss a pitch if it was near the zone. And like someone already mentioned, he was lucky to get one near the zone. I believe Bonds used a lighter and shorter bat than most. And choked up an inch or so. So that bat must have felt like nothing in his hands.

The Ugly

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2013, 01:12:02 PM »
I'm a huge Ruth fan but there's no doubt the guy went up against a lot of cans. A lot of the pitchers back then and all the way up through the 60's and into the 70's threw over 300 innings a season. Most of these guys had nothing in the tank when they took the mound half way through the season. 3 days rest was the norm...In the Ruth days, pitchers would threw back to back days or every other day...The mindset was to just throw and eat up innings... So some guy who might have been able to throw 85 to 90 mph(which was fast back then), would be throwing in the mid 70's after the all star break...Most of the pitchers had to throw a shitload of off speed stuff and breaking balls. So much easier to hit when you know a guy has a rubber arm and is only going to throw off speed shit. Hell a 70+ mph fastball is basically batting practice pitching...But no doubt that's what Ruth faced more often than not...

I don't doubt this, but Ruth was hitting more home runs than most teams, which tells you what a giant he was in his day. Bottom line, they were all facing these same pitchers, but no one annihilated them the way Babe did. He certainly wouldn't put up those numbers against today's pitching, no. He'd still be head and shoulders above his contemporaries, though.

Grape Ape

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Re: The Michael Jordan of baseball
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2013, 01:20:55 PM »
I'm a huge Ruth fan but there's no doubt the guy went up against a lot of cans. A lot of the pitchers back then and all the way up through the 60's and into the 70's threw over 300 innings a season. Most of these guys had nothing in the tank when they took the mound half way through the season. 3 days rest was the norm...In the Ruth days, pitchers would threw back to back days or every other day...The mindset was to just throw and eat up innings... So some guy who might have been able to throw 85 to 90 mph(which was fast back then), would be throwing in the mid 70's after the all star break...Most of the pitchers had to throw a shitload of off speed stuff and breaking balls. So much easier to hit when you know a guy has a rubber arm and is only going to throw off speed shit. Hell a 70+ mph fastball is basically batting practice pitching...But no doubt that's what Ruth faced more often than not...

Yeah, but Ruth's deviation from the mean at the time is still off the charts.  Nobody was even in the same stratosphere, and they were facing the same pitching.
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