New Jersey Cop Fatally Shoots Unarmed Man With His Hands Up

[Grape Ape]

In my opinion, its hard to determine what a good cop is. Sure, most cops who pull me over for a moving violation are just fine. However, I also determine moral action when you're put in a scenario that really determines character.

Lets be honest here: If there was a scenario where two cops approached a person. Let say cop 1 used excessive force and was clearly wrong in the situation. Let say cops 2 was just standing by. When it is all said and done, and cop 2 needs to give a statement to his boss, is cop 2 more likely to side with the civilian or side with his partner (cop 1)? I'd say the majority of cops, not all,  would side with their partner, even if their partner was clearly wrong. And this may be a good that interactions just fine with civilians on a daily basis.

That is why its so hard to say what is a good or bad cop, because different scenarios will elicit different responses.

Take out policeman and use construction worker, firefighter, and accountant, and I'd think most would back up their peers and co workers vs the gen pop.

But regardless of the situation, good cops will do their job to uphold and abide by the law.  I don't think the lines are that blurred.

[BIG ACH]

I was pulled over last month (ticket was $500+ :-/ ) but none of these shenanigans went on... I was polite and the officer was actually pleasant despite the expensive ass ticket... He was very professional and friendly.  I think the general public is being too harsh on cops.... Don't act like a dick and you won't be treated like one.  We heard about all these shootings, assaults, choke holds, etc. How does it come to this... What did the civilian do to escalate it to that level.

People forget cops deal with the shittiest ass people in the world, they are always on edge, don't make their job harder, just be polite and cooperate.

[SF1900]

Take out policeman and use construction worker, firefighter, and accountant, and I'd think most would back up their peers and co workers vs the gen pop.

But regardless of the situation, good cops will do their job to uphold and abide by the law.  I don't think the lines are that blurred.

Depends. In many jobs people are mandated reporters and if they suspect a coworker is harming a client, they are required by state law to report them or they can lose their license, get thrown in jail or be fined. So, it really depends on the occupation. Some jobs have VERY strict guidelines about reporting coworkers.

The issue is that many of those jobs you described do not involve direct contact with people on a daily basis. Furthermore, those jobs usually do not involve a person's life being put in danger on a daily basis (except fireman). You would hope that cops are held to a higher moral standard than a construction worker, given their oaths to serve and protect the population on a daily and continuous basis. Thus, it becomes even more stickier when one cop covers for another cop, considering the high need civilians place on cops to be honest and moral, even beyond a construction worker.

Yes, the thing is, how many good cops are out there that will actually speak out against their partners and corruption within the department? As I said, its very cult-like, so many cops would fear retaliation and ostracization by other cops, and thus will remain silent. Its actually similar to the street rule, "No snitching." Police departments need to do a better job of celebrating those good cops who bring down corruption within the department, instead of ostracizing them. Its really an organizational problem. And there have been quite a few instances of this.

[Grape Ape]

Depends. In many jobs people are mandated reporters and if they suspect a coworker is harming a client, they are required by state law to report them or they can lose their license, get thrown in jail or be fined. So, it really depends on the occupation. Some jobs have VERY strict guidelines about reporting coworkers.

The issue is that many of those jobs you described do not involve direct contact with people on a daily basis. Furthermore, those jobs usually do not involve a person's life being put in danger on a daily basis (except fireman). You would hope that cops are held to a higher moral standard than a construction worker, given their oaths to serve and protect the population on a daily and continuous basis. Thus, it becomes even more stickier when one cop covers for another cop, considering the high need civilians place on cops to be honest and moral, even beyond a construction worker.

Yes, the thing is, how many good cops are out there that will actually speak out against their partners and corruption within the department? As I said, its very cult-like, so many cops would fear retaliation and ostracization by other cops, and thus will remain silent. Its actually similar to the street rule, "No snitching." Police departments need to do a better job of celebrating those good cops who bring down corruption within the department, instead of ostracizing them. Its really an organizational problem. And there have been quite a few instances of this.

The problem is you've created a specific, hypothetical situation, and applied your own subjectivity to it.   It's still the law of large numbers.  I'm sure what you mentioned actually happens.  But, does it happen on such a large scale that it's indicative of the whole population?  Of course not.  You'd have to have an astounding rate of occurrence.  And if it happened at that rate, we'd be having much, much more social unrest as a result.

[SF1900]

The problem is you've created a specific, hypothetical situation, and applied your own subjectivity to it.   It's still the law of large numbers.  I'm sure what you mentioned actually happens.  But, does it happen on such a large scale that it's indicative of the whole population?  Of course not.  You'd have to have an astounding rate of occurrence.  And if it happened at that rate, we'd be having much, much more social unrest as a result.

I do wonder how much mild corruption goes on in police departments that many officers know about, but are kept silenced. Its impossible to study, because of the silence among police officers due to possible fear and intimidation.

Just because its a hypothetical situation, it does not mean that it does not occur on a large scale, nor does it mean its not worthy of discussing. This is the same reason why it took so long for it to come out about priests molesting altar boys and Sandusky having sex with boys because certain institutions (church and penn state) made it very difficult to obtain that knowledge. And guess what? It was happening on a large scale, however, these institutions used fear and intimidation to silence people.  It doesn't mean all priests are molesters and all football coaches are molesters, but this was happening on a large enough scale to make people throw their arms up and say, "enough is enough." Now, this may or may not be happening in the police force. I don't know. But it is not totally implausible to throw out such a hypothesis. As stated previously, it would be nearly impossible to really get an accurate representation about how many cops know about corruption but remain silent.

[Erik C]

I wrote out a statement, but erased it. I can't even debate a statement like that.  

Of course you can't. When I right, I'm right. You can't argue with the truth, facts, and reality, without you looking stupid.

[Grape Ape]

I do wonder how much mild corruption goes on in police departments that many officers know about, but are kept silenced. Its impossible to study, because of the silence among police officers due to possible fear and intimidation.

Just because its a hypothetical situation, it does not mean that it does not occur on a large scale, nor does it mean its not worthy of discussing. This is the same reason why it took so long for it to come out about priests molesting altar boys and Sandusky having sex with boys because certain institutions (church and penn state) made it very difficult to obtain that knowledge. And guess what? It was happening on a large scale, however, these institutions used fear and intimidation to silence people.  It doesn't mean all priests are molesters and all football coaches are molesters, but this was happening on a large enough scale to make people throw their arms up and say, "enough is enough." Now, this may or may not be happening in the police force. I don't know. But it is not totally implausible to throw out such a hypothesis. As stated previously, it would be nearly impossible to really get an accurate representation about how many cops know about corruption but remain silent.

Your point is well thought out, but if so many people were mistreated by police officers at the scale you're talking about, we'd hear much, much more.  I get the Catholic Church thing, but it's a different crime, against a population extremely young from a different time.  It's not the same.  If police were doing this on a grand scale with adults, there'd be so much more press, especially in this age where things go viral instantly.

[SF1900]

Your point is well thought out, but if so many people were mistreated by police officers at the scale you're talking about, we'd hear much, much more.  I get the Catholic Church thing, but it's a different crime, against a population extremely young from a different time.  It's not the same.  If police were doing this on a grand scale with adults, there'd be so much more press, especially in this age where things go viral instantly.

Agreed with what you said. To me, its the same in the sense that it shows that large institutions can and do silence people from speaking out, even the good people.

The conversation did sort of switch to discussing what is considered a good cop in more general terms. I think a good cop is one that treats its civilians fairly, but also exposes police corruption within the department (that can be exposing excessive use of force by other officers or a corrupt boss, etc). I agree that the issue of mistreatment of adults is probably not widespread in that sense, however, I would not be surprised if corruption existed on other levels within the police department. I realize this is getting off-base, as the original topic was primarily about police brutality/excessive force.

I stand by my statement: Many large organizations (churches, police departments, military etc.) use fear of intimidation and ostracization to keep people silent. I think the police department does have many organizational issues that may lead to silencing its workers, even those good cops that want to do the right thing. Sometimes its tough to do the right thing when you have so much on the line (job, pension, salary, etc.). As stated, this is off-topic and is a whole other topic for discussion.

[Teutonic Knight]

He should have been killed the first time he tried to shoot a cop. Why are we so concerned with a convict carrying a gun?  

Black lives matter? You have 2589 people shot in Chicago alone in 2014. Most of the victims were black. Most of the known shooters are black. Where is Sharpton? Where are the protests? Where are the majority liberal news providers in print, internet and television? What do liberals care about? They care about guys that break the law, have criminal records, resist arrest and assault cops.

How's this for a statistic. In 2012 123 blacks were killed by cops and 326 whites. These stats came from the CDC.

Just like African tribal wars , must be genetics.

[SF1900]

Of course you can't. When I right, I'm right. You can't argue with the truth, facts, and reality, without you looking stupid.

okay, cool.

[Robgun1]

Here we go again.     

[SF1900]

Here we go again.     

It's getbig. The nature of the forum is arguing with each other. 

[Slapper]

I was pulled over last month (ticket was $500+ :-/ ) but none of these shenanigans went on... I was polite and the officer was actually pleasant despite the expensive ass ticket... He was very professional and friendly.  I think the general public is being too harsh on cops.... Don't act like a dick and you won't be treated like one.  We heard about all these shootings, assaults, choke holds, etc. How does it come to this... What did the civilian do to escalate it to that level.

People forget cops deal with the shittiest ass people in the world, they are always on edge, don't make their job harder, just be polite and cooperate.

Did you let him fuck your wife too?

[Thespritz0]

I DID NOT see any "hands up" with the passenger!!  He was fighting the whole time then barreled out of the car presumably to fight it out...

[ChuckleHead]

after watching the video i have to say the cop had little choice.

the cop didn't have to shoot but he would have been risking his and his partner's life.

there was a gun present within the detainee's reach. he was told expressly not to reach or move repeatedly. the guy did not comply but resisted, you can even see the cop pushing against the car door to keep it closed which the guy forced open and then popped out.

there can only be one reason why he didn't comply, he had bad intentions.

and if he didn't, the reason you comply is because you know the cop can;t know your intentions.

how much more clearer can you put it than "if you reach you will be fucking dead", over and over again. did he think the cop wasn't serious?

notice the driver was not shot. he complied.

i'm the last guy to defend cops. but the guy asked for it.

if anyone of us was in that same spot, none of us would move.

[Pray_4_War]

Sad that it had to go down like that but it was a good shoot.

[ChuckleHead]

i just saw a better quality video. i thought the gun was still in the car, but the fucking cop took the gun first, i didn't notice that in the version here. how can that be a justified if the cop took the gun? there was not imminent threat.......... bad shooting. bad. murder.

 

[woodman]

i just saw a better quality video. i thought the gun was still in the car, but the fucking cop took the gun first, i didn't notice that in the version here. how can that be a justified if the cop took the gun? there was not imminent threat.......... bad shooting. bad. murder.

 

because your taught if you find one gun look for more...easily over a dozen times I arrested someone who was carrying multiple firearms including a man in a wheelchair armed with 6 revolvers!

[Slapper]

I DID NOT see any "hands up" with the passenger!!  He was fighting the whole time then barreled out of the car presumably to fight it out...

You cannot shoot nyone based on presumptions, and even when you shoot you have multiple non-vital parts to choose from.

Like I said, these two cops were out there hunting.

[woodman]

You cannot shoot nyone based on presumptions, and even when you shoot you have multiple non-vital parts to choose from.

Like I said, these two cops were out there hunting.

of course they were hunting ( but to catch) violent criminals! Unfortunately this Darwin candidate couldn't follow the cops orders and paid the price! Case closed