Long term juicing and health.

[jaejonna]

Some of the best people who know about safe bb you might consider asking ...

Ken Wheeler
Tom Prince
Mike Matarazzo
Orville Burke
the Ghost of Andreas Munzer

[sean]

Its all down to your genetics. Arnold and Lou were juicing [on and off] for upwards of twenty years - and they're fine. Judging from his pics i'd say that Dorian started in 85 and finished in 97 - and hes fine. Same [or thereabouts] for Kev and Shawn. Some people are just unlucky, simple as that.

With moderate use you should be fine, as long as you're not hitting coke, pills, speed etc [and many are]. I'm still amazed everytime i see a bodybuilder smoking. And it disgusts me everytime someone posts a "can i drink whilst on the gear" over on the steroid board. NO! Be sensible! Enjoy the gear, enjoy the benefits it brings - but protect your health.

I was flipping through the Bodybuilding Encyclopedia by Robert Kennedy the other day and it was suprising how a guy on almost every other page was either dead or sick. 

Dont be ignorant to the facts.  Arnold was sick and probably still is. Two heart surgeries and coloring his hair since about age 30. Dorian, Kevin, Shawn... how do you know they're ok? Dorian seems to look up and down.

[sean]

i remember reading about Pete Grymkowski being a human guinea pig as far as massive dosages go and he's still kicking around, onlyme could probably talk about him more.

Did you ever see that Musclemag with Grymkowski lying on a bed in the ER with tubes coming out of his mouth and a crew of medical personel trying to revive him from his heart attack?... i believe it was his second.  Seeing that he's about my dads age.... he not really kicking around so-to-speak.

[timfogarty]

Some of the best people who know about safe bb you might consider asking ...

Ken Wheeler
Tom Prince
Mike Matarazzo
Orville Burke
the Ghost of Andreas Munzer

the problem with such "Reefer Maddness" arguing techniques is that it doesn't convey any real information.   

We know that diuretics can kill (Munzer).  We know that unmonitored high BP for years and years can cause kidney damage (Wheeler).  We know that unmonitored cholesterol and triglycerides combined with a diet high in saturated fats can lead to a heart attack (Matarazzo).  and we know that even simple surgeries can go horribly wrong (Burke, but what does that have to do with bodybuilding?)

Millions of guys have used anabolic steroids over the last 60 years, and most of them have not abused them, nor have they had any long term side effects.    Doing 2000 mg a week for 6 months to a year is probably not a good idea.  Doing 200-400 mg a week for 10-12 weeks is probably safe for most guys.

[jaejonna]

the problem with such "Reefer Maddness" arguing techniques is that it doesn't convey any real information.   

We know that diuretics can kill (Munzer).  We know that unmonitored high BP for years and years can cause kidney damage (Wheeler).  We know that unmonitored cholesterol and triglycerides combined with a diet high in saturated fats can lead to a heart attack (Matarazzo).  and we know that even simple surgeries can go horribly wrong (Burke) but what does that have to do with bodybuilding?

Millions of guys have used anabolic steroids over the last 60 years, and most of them have not abused them, nor have they had any long term side effects.    Doing 2000 mg a week for 6 months to a year is probably not a good idea.  Doing 200-400 mg a week for 10-12 weeks is probably safe for most guys.

Sorry didnt mean to belittle your info Tim, you are correct with what you say, but the majority of Steroid users do not put that much thought into what they are gettin into..more like the 'I see my boy doing this, imma do the same' type of technique...If they were legal then i feel we can minimize the risk associated with usage however their prohibition will continue to help the proliferation the back alley techniques used by novices in the sport.

[honest]

Are you natural JaeJoanna

[ether]

As far as I know there are no real studies which have examined this.

First of all, long term studies such as this one are virtually impossible to conduct.

You would have to recruit a cohort of BBers who admit they are on juice (most claim they are "clean") they you would have to follow them over several years, administering tests along the way. The drop out rate would be higher than Cormier in high school.

Thirdly, there would be NO ONE willing to fund this type of a study and lastly no paper which would accept this type of article.

Therefore, for the above reasons this answer will never be answered definitively. Everything else on this post is pure conjecture based on a few isolated cases of those people who died, got very sick or are perfectly fine.

However, there are tons of confounding factors in group analyzing individual cases such as these....genetics, age, duration of AAS, Dosing, Types, other supplements etc....

Having said all this, as one of the MD's on this board, I would have to say that you would be hard pressed to find an accredited physician who would endorse taking AAS.

[Heywood]

As far as I know there are no real studies which have examined this.

First of all, long term studies such as this one are virtually impossible to conduct.

You would have to recruit a cohort of BBers who admit they are on juice (most claim they are "clean") they you would have to follow them over several years, administering tests along the way. The drop out rate would be higher than Cormier in high school.

Thirdly, there would be NO ONE willing to fund this type of a study and lastly no paper which would accept this type of article.

Therefore, for the above reasons this answer will never be answered definitively. Everything else on this post is pure conjecture based on a few isolated cases of those people who died, got very sick or are perfectly fine.

However, there are tons of confounding factors in group analyzing individual cases such as these....genetics, age, duration of AAS, Dosing, Types, other supplements etc....

Having said all this, as one of the MD's on this board, I would have to say that you would be hard pressed to find an accredited physician who would endorse taking AAS.

Thank you very much for that response!!  I'm not a doctor, but that is my opinion as well.

Non-physicians come on a discussion board and say "take A or B or C because it bypasses the liver"... and on and on and on.

They have absolutely no credentials or licensing or anything at risk in making these statements.  They can't be sued if they are wrong.  They are, in effect, endorsing "safe use" of steriods, even though they themselves have no experience, data or studies to cite.  They consider themselves experts because they understand some of the basic concepts of how the drugs work in the body.

Steriod use basically began with Dianabol in the 60's.  So go do a study of a % of lifters and bodybuilders who competed in the national AAU and IFBB contests in the 3 sports of b/b, p/l and o/l meets during the 60's and 70's.  Find out how their livers, prostates and hearts, etc have fared over the last 40 or so years.  Then come back and give us the results, and we have something to base opinion on. 

[Ex Coelis]

is D-bol bridging considered a cycle or post cycle therapy?

[sarcasm]

If one thing should be made clear from this post it's that bodybuilding (i.e., gaining mass and being shredded) has NOTHING - absolutely nothing - to do with health.

Take Lee Priest in his muscletech ads.  Whatever he does clearly does get him the results he wants for competitive bodybuilding but doesn't have the slightest thing to do with being healthy.  Now maybe Lee himself is healthy but I would probably already have diabetes if I followed his diet.

he probably has diabetes and doesn't know it.

[onlyme]

Some pictures of Grymkowski with his new child were posted last year and he was looking ok, but you would not ever know he was juicing or was anywhere near as thick as he used to be.  Given that he would compete at around 240 and in good condition at 5'10.  In the pics I remember he had a pretty thin build.  But he was still alive and didn't appear to be terribly unhealthy - not that appearances count for everything.  At least his reproductive system was good enough after all that heavy juicing to conceive a child.

Pete is a very good friend of mine and my kids godfather.  He competed at 265 and I don't think he is that thin when he competed.  And you are right about appearance.  Pete had 4 heart attacks in 2 weeks.  His spine is or was detoritating.  He has spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars traveling around the world to get better. Of all the countries and doctors he has been to from Germany to Brazil to Mexico, he told me Tijuana Mexico is where he got the best treatment.  He is better nwo and feeling good.  He could barely walk a block but now is better.  I try to talk to him as much as possible but he spends allot fo time in Cabo since he had a house built there.

[G o a t b o y]

coloring his hair since about age 30.

What's that got to do with anything?  How early your hair turns gray is genetic, and has nothing to do with the state of your overall health.

[sarcasm]

Pete is a very good friend of mine and my kids godfather.  He competed at 265 and I don't think he is that thin when he competed.  And you are right about appearance.  Pete had 4 heart attacks in 2 weeks.  His spine is or was detoritating.  He has spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars traveling around the world to get better. Of all the countries and doctors he has been to from Germany to Brazil to Mexico, he told me Tijuana Mexico is where he got the best treatment.  He is better nwo and feeling good.  He could barely walk a block but now is better.  I try to talk to him as much as possible but he spends allot fo time in Cabo since he had a house built there.

Pete had an awesome build back then, that's what a guy should look like, big but not bloated and freaky, Pete looked hard as nails and extremely strong, do you know the stories of what he took Keith?

[sarcasm]

I also want to know.  Is he 5'10?  I read that in a few sources.  If so, 265 is ridiculously big.

i would say he was probably around there, if you look at the picture he looks at least 10 inches taller than Padilla who was like 5'2" or something.

[onlyme]

Yes he is 5'10 barefoot.  And he comepted at 265 most of the time.  He weighs about 180 now.  He has told me numerous times what and hwo much he took.  I can't remeber it all.  Buthe was famous for how much he took.  His body reacted very good to everything.  He also guest posed no more than 5 to 7 pounds over his comp weight.  He always felt if the promoter was giving him money to pose then he deserved the best.  He hates how the guys look today when they guest pose.  I wish he coould type cause if you heard his stories they are unreal the shit he has seen and did.  Makes me look like a newborn.

[NYC Rex]

Its all down to your genetics. Arnold and Lou were juicing [on and off] for upwards of twenty years - and they're fine.

Arnold had open heart surgery in 1996 when he was 49, supposedly for a "genetic defect."

[lonewolf]

Don'y you guys listen to anybody. Take anything you want by the truckload. Don't worry about cycling. Double your doses and never come off anything. Keep the juice levels up.Be sure to send me your name and next of kin.

                                                   Sincerely,
                                                   N. Tomb--Funeral Director

[timfogarty]

Steriod use basically began with Dianabol in the 60's. 

steroid esters were used by many in the 1940s and 1950s.  first reference that I've found for an anabolic steroid in a bodybuilding mag was in a 1938 Strength and Health.