Bruce Lee the greatest fighter that ever lived?

[dootle]

translation,  you just finnished watching "the dragon" and you think you can write a book on Bruce Lee.

translation,translation..we're in a "bruce lee" thread and i pointed out the only thing you know about him..i was 2 years old when he died,so i obviously never met the dude and any info i learned about him came from books and film..i'm just saying that Bruce lee fought real fights and isn't getting enough respect in this thread..shame on you all

[americanbulldog]

a lot of martial arts are not pratical....  a fight doesnt end and reset as soon as you land a clean blow.  Could you imagine a boxing match , where after every clean jab landed the ref jumped in and broke them apart and then awarded a point.   

I have attended the JFJKD foundation meetings, and have personally witnessed film of Bruce sparring with all of his students, no tag, no refs.  Just he and Guro Dan, Sifu Richard, Sifu Larry Hartsell, dropping them with nice crisp boxing combinations with low and highline kicks, so yes he could fight.  I am a Wing Chun instructor (no longer practice) and a Jeet Kune Do Concepts assistant instructor.  Could he fight with today's fighters.  NO WAY.  Could he take care of himself against 1964-1973 fighters?  Yes.  Lets keep it in perspective. 

[student]

Bruce Lee is an icon......  He was the first person that got people interested in the martial arts in the west .  I look at Bruce Lee alot like I look at Muhammad Ali.  Neither were the greatest , but both are the most recognizable icons in their pursuits.  Difference was Ali actually participated in his field and paid the physical price, and Bruce lee made movies about kicking ass.

[onlyme]

never met wall, just heard stuff from other people. supposed to be a karate legend and a guy who really could fight, a bit nuts. also fairly close to the bruce lee gang ie chuck norris, mike stone, etc.

i've met and shook hands with norris (who hasn't?), but that's it, never hung out with him. would have been pretty cool to hang with some of these guys after all the stories i've heard.

onlyme, i understand you hung around chuck norris a bit so you've probably met wall.

you got any stories? heard he was a good fighter and didn't back down from one either.

Actually I know Bob well.  Met him through Chuck.  Went out to eat a couple times with him.  To date he has the neatest office I have evevr been in.  He owns mega real Estate in the Valley.  He owns several mini malls and shoppig Centers on Ventura Bl.  All of them have "Wall" in the title.  He collects Tarzan memeorabilia and his office is like a jungle.  Really cool.  He is the only person to appear in every Bruce Lee movie (at least thats what he told me).  I never got a copy of this pic we took but some magazine guy was at Benny Uriquez Gym (The Jet Center) when I was there training and took a pic of (me, Bill Wallace, Bob Wall, Chuck Norris, Benny, Blinky, Joe Lewis, Sugarfoot and a couple others but can't remember names)  I wish I had a copy of that pic.

Anyway me and Bob had a falling out a few years ago.  It was kind of stupid and couldn't believe what he did or was saying to me.  He was managing Dennis Alexio too at the time.  I think we made up but can't remember.  I'm sure when we see each again we'll be fine.

[rugged_bloke89]

I dont understand why Bruce Lee wouldnt be able to pose a threat to the fighters today, he had the speed, concentration, strength, etc...(but im talkin about in his prime, not if he were to be 60 today). How has fighting evolved so much that Bruce wouldnt be able to stand up to most fighters of today? not baggin out anyone but i wouldnt mind a plausible answer with an example if you could

[americanbulldog]

I dont understand why Bruce Lee wouldnt be able to pose a threat to the fighters today, he had the speed, concentration, strength, etc...(but im talkin about in his prime, not if he were to be 60 today). How has fighting evolved so much that Bruce wouldnt be able to stand up to most fighters of today? not baggin out anyone but i wouldnt mind a plausible answer with an example if you could

No defense for the muay thai plum, no takedown defense, little ground experience would make him meat for today's fighters.  If you are a one trick pony (stand up), your opposition will take you down and finish the fight there. 

[RUDE BUOY]

 

[BEAST 8692]

i'm sorry but lee didn't even have the stand up.

student is right. boxing is by far the best stand up skill. hands are everything in stand up. you need to keep both feet on the ground and if you're going to be a legitemate force. kicks are a luxury and practically the only kick i'll use in a bout/fight will be a round house kick to the thigh, calf.

unfortunately most people on this board have NO idea about actual fighting. y'all go by what you see on the movies. well i'm here to tell you that looks can be very very deceiving.

lee was very good 'looking', but practically, most of his stuff was completely USELESS. he would get owned very quickly in a modern mma bout.

in a street fight he would get owned by someone willing and prepared to use EVERY weapon at his disposal. whether that be biting, butting, tearing, baseball bat, knife, gun, etc, etc, etc.

naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen.

as pointed out, lee was an actor with SOME real world ability that was somewhat greater than ignorant americans were (to that point) used to. he made an absolute meal of it because he was a cocky s.o.b.

thanx onlyme. man, you knew everyone! we're lucky to have you on here.

[dootle]

If you watch any Bruce lee movies, his fight scenes are full of flashy/glamorous techniques which would be useless in a real fight..if you make judgments based on what he does in movies, of coarse he wouldn't stand a chance with a good mma fighter(But,he was just "acting" for the movie)...Why is everyone overlooking the fact that he had tons of real street fights and fought(and beat) anyone

[SinCitysmallGUY]

i'm sorry but lee didn't even have the stand up.

student is right. boxing is by far the best stand up skill. hands are everything in stand up. you need to keep both feet on the ground and if you're going to be a legitemate force. kicks are a luxury and practically the only kick i'll use in a bout/fight will be a round house kick to the thigh, calf.

unfortunately most people on this board have NO idea about actual fighting. y'all go by what you see on the movies. well i'm here to tell you that looks can be very very deceiving.

lee was very good 'looking', but practically, most of his stuff was completely USELESS. he would get owned very quickly in a modern mma bout.

in a street fight he would get owned by someone willing and prepared to use EVERY weapon at his disposal. whether that be biting, butting, tearing, baseball bat, knife, gun, etc, etc, etc.

naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen.

as pointed out, lee was an actor with SOME real world ability that was somewhat greater than ignorant americans were (to that point) used to. he made an absolute meal of it because he was a cocky s.o.b.

thanx onlyme. man, you knew everyone! we're lucky to have you on here.

You fucking out of the country fuk... jesus i get so sick of hearing you AMERICANS..... are you from france..... Bruce Lee wouldnt have a chance in a fight with todays MMA artists i will agree with you there. But to say that Bruce Lee didnt have any stand up proves you to be a fool. Bruce lee was a small man that knew much of pressure points and also energy transition... Two things that i believe are a huge advantage in a fight. two the man was fast as hell and very accurate. He trained traditional martial arts right from the origin of it. Not that it makes a huge differance but i wuld rather train in tailand if i was going to do kick bocking so bruce trained in his style in the home of it.... before he came to america... and yes bruce lee wouldnt stand a chance against a gun maybe not a knife... but how well would you most people dont train against weapons.... and im sure you love fedor hes a great fighter but do you think he could defend a gun a knife a baseball bat.... i gurantee bruce in his prime would be a small but quick agile powerful and accurate force to reckon with... size isnt always shit..

[student]

I'd rather train in the Kronk gym , or the wildcard then thailand.    People love Bruce Lee.  I'm not trying to tear him down, I'm just saying people go over the top about him.  He doesn't have the credibility that a true proffesional  has.  Some one affliated with a organization that sanctions matches , can be evaluated against his level of opposition , his wins versus loses, championships he has won etc.   Bruce Lee is unfairly given a free pass over people that have risked their health , and fought legitamite matches on record and in front of witnesses.  He may have been the best representitive , but without a true account of his abilities, he can't be called or even mentioned amoung anyone who climbed in a ring.

[student]

Every one can fight until they get clipped on that chin.

[BEAST 8692]

precisely. if you don't fight the best opponents you CAN'T be the best fighter. it's an impossibility and that is why bruce lee is a myth created by movie producers.

someone tell me WHO lee fought, i mean REALLY fought, in a sanctioned bout with someone of decent calibre, not some subordinate in a controlled setting ie dojo. anyone oh, and please, NO fictitious stories created by nut huggers. i want a little more proof than, 'i read in...' or 'i saw in a movie...' 

sincity, you sound like the typical american i speak of, all angry and shit where there is zero risk of accounting for it ie message board. key board tough guy.

let me guess, you're 14 yrs old and live with ma and pa. you're obese because you eat way too much home cooked apple pie and watch too much tv just like ma and pa.

i know you can't fight because if you actually learned how to you'd know that you NEVER show your emotions, especially anger. melting down is a very obvious sign of a little brat with low self esteem.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

precisely. if you don't fight the best opponents you CAN'T be the best fighter. it's an impossibility and that is why bruce lee is a myth created by movie producers.

someone tell me WHO lee fought, i mean REALLY fought, in a sanctioned bout with someone of decent calibre, not some subordinate in a controlled setting ie dojo. anyone oh, and please, NO fictitious stories created by nut huggers. i want a little more proof than, 'i read in...' or 'i saw in a movie...' 

sincity, you sound like the typical american i speak of, all angry and shit where there is zero risk of accounting for it ie message board. key board tough guy.

let me guess, you're 14 yrs old and live with ma and pa. you're obese because you eat way too much home cooked
apple pie and watch too much tv just like ma and pa.

i know you can't fight because if you actually learned how to you'd know that you NEVER show your emotions, especially anger. melting down is a very obvious sign of a little brat with low self esteem.


Beast you my friend sound like the out of country fuck who has no idea... angry never, first i havent gotten angry at all... but good try attempting to read me... but my friend that was a horrible attempt. second i wasnt saying that bruce lee was a good fighter or that he ever did fight... im just saying that the man was a great martial artist. and sorry beast not quite 14 a little bit older, married and dont live with mom... And not obese either HINT FOR YOU LOOK AT THE NAME..... Small doesnt mean obese.. but another nice try... Not a very large fan of apple pie either.. And working 10 hour days not much time for tv would rather listen to glenn beck and rush limbaugh.... but you were close. And when it comes to fighting i have no idea how to. ive just been training for the last 13 years.. but you my friend must be a brit or french... im sure you have some horrible body odor. Nasty teeth. and more then likely suck penis for tea on the weekend. let me guess you must live with your man lover and paint pictures of cows. what the hell are you talking about you dont know me nor do i know you so dotn assume aything... save yorself the problem of looking like an ass..... AND NO THIS IS NOT A MELTDOWN.... so all the nuthugging meltdown callers save yourself the hassle...

[BEAST 8692]

great, thanx for telling me your life story also, with another added melt down at the conclusion.

btw, i have no doubt you're small (the small man syndrome's a bit of a give away  ). that doesn't mean you're not obese though, but i'll take your word for it. let's just call you pleasantly plump seeing as you're being so nice and sharing your life story with me.

so is there anything else you want to get off your chest little american boy? maybe you want to tell me exactly how you fight or have you already done that on this board.

you might have participated for 13 years, but you aint no fighter little boy.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

great, thanx for telling me your life story also, with another added melt down at the conclusion.

btw, i have no doubt you're small (the small man syndrome's a bit of a give away  ). that doesn't mean you're not obese though, but i'll take your word for it. let's just call you pleasantly plump seeing as you're being so nice and sharing your life story with me.

so is there anything else you want to get off your chest little american boy? maybe you want to tell me exactly how you fight or have you already done that on this board.

you might have participated for 13 years, but you aint no fighter little boy.

Yep Your right buddy no fighter.. And im sure you must bne the next fedor... slap yourself and wake up.... The only thing you've ever beat is your French lover fedinand's cock... keep wanking buddy....

[student]

Maybe the problem is in the definition.  If by martial artist you mean, some one that can preform all the punches and kicks quick and gracefully , like in an exhibition?  Then yeah, maybe Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist of all time.  If you mean can he take those skills and apply them in a real setting against anyone successfully?  No.  This argument is going downhill real quick.  I might find more a difference between martial artist and a fighter. 

[americanbulldog]

Maybe the problem is in the definition.  If by martial artist you mean, some one that can preform all the punches and kicks quick and gracefully , like in an exhibition?  Then yeah, maybe Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist of all time.  If you mean can he take those skills and apply them in a real setting against anyone successfully?  No.  This argument is going downhill real quick.  I might find more a difference between martial artist and a fighter. 

A lot of you have no clue about Bruce as a martial artist.  He was not a pressure points guy ala George Dildo.  He was a wing chun man who was unable to make his wing chun techniques work in America like they did in Hong Kong.  He started modifying kung fu techniques to work for him.  When he found that kung fu techniques would not work in a seamless flow, he started doing western boxing, judo (actually enrolled in a class), took concepts from fencing, added in some muay thai and catchascatchcan wrestling with some jiujitsu.  Do not mistake functional Jeet Kune Do with movie Jeet Kune Do.  He would not have fought as he did in movies.  Again, I have seen actual training footage of Bruce with his top students, and he looked like a modern day mma fighter (not as crisp, no groundwork).  He would transition from kicking, punching range.  Move side to side with a lot of head movement, change levels on strikes (high low high, inside kick, outside kick).  Would he  be comparable to today's fighters NO!  But would a 1973 Mustang be comparable to a 2006 GT500?  Of course not.  This debate is whether or not he is the greatest martial artist. 

Again, as a Bruce Lee fan, NO!  Did he have a profound impact on martial arts?  YES.  Was he, like the Gracie's doing his own interpretation of MMA back in the 60's and 70's?  YES.  If Keith were to ask Bob Wall how Bruce got his students, he would tell you Bruce would "Dojo storm" other schools, watch at first, then ask to spar with the toughest fighters.  He would systematically take them apart, then leave the school with the embarassed fighter asking to be trained by Bruce.  Through O'hara publishing (Black Belt magazine), he had an open challenge to ANYONE.  This is Bruce Lee the fighter.  So one of the better fighters of his day?  DEFINITELY.  Good enough for today?  HELL NO!  I have no doubt, had he been alive, he would be a BJJ blackbelt, and a big MMA advocate.  Just prior to his death, he was quoted as saying a man with 1 years boxing experience and some wrestling would beat 100% of the black belts out there.  (This didn't make him popular with the McDojo school owners at the time since he was the hottest thing out).  So there it is. 

[onlyme]

Bulldog I agree with the 73 Mustang compared to the new Shelby.  Except, you can make the 73 Mustang beat the new Shelby with some work on the engine and suspension and drive train.  Same with Bruce Lee.  Sure the way he was way back then wouldn't do well against todays MMA guys but guaranteed if the Bruce Lee of long ago trained like they did today and learned all the aspects to MMA then he would absolutely be one of the best if not the best.  There is not one guy in MMA with the total physical abilities and conditioning of Bruce Lee.  His mental strength is perhaps his strongest.  I am pretty sure he would have trained and trained and trained some more and would have dominated in MMA today.  But, everyone is right he wouldn't have done well today with yesterdays skills only.

And another point.  Allot of people rag on pro wrestlers (WWE and others) saying they can't fight it's all fake.  Believe me faking a fight and making it look real is harder than doing it for real.  These guys control punches and kicks NOT to hurt the person.  Being able to let it go and hit the target is allot easier.  Ask any stuntman.  Most of them them throw good clean punches at full speed and miss by inches and sometime less.  That takes allot of skill to do that.

[americanbulldog]

Bulldog I agree with the 73 Mustang compared to the new Shelby.  Except, you can make the 73 Mustang beat the new Shelby with some work on the engine and suspension and drive train.  Same with Bruce Lee.  Sure the way he was way back then wouldn't do well against todays MMA guys but guaranteed if the Bruce Lee of long ago trained like they did today and learned all the aspects to MMA then he would absolutely be one of the best if not the best.  There is not one guy in MMA with the total physical abilities and conditioning of Bruce Lee.  His mental strength is perhaps his strongest.  I am pretty sure he would have trained and trained and trained some more and would have dominated in MMA today.  But, everyone is right he wouldn't have done well today with yesterdays skills only.

And another point.  Allot of people rag on pro wrestlers (WWE and others) saying they can't fight it's all fake.  Believe me faking a fight and making it look real is harder than doing it for real.  These guys control punches and kicks NOT to hurt the person.  Being able to let it go and hit the target is allot easier.  Ask any stuntman.  Most of them them throw good clean punches at full speed and miss by inches and sometime less.  That takes allot of skill to do that.

True dat.  I know of a certain pro wrestler from Japan that ran roughshod over the Gracies.  Japanese pro wrestlers are truer to the roots of real wrestling.  Gotch had a big impact on wrestling and fighting in Japan. 

[student]

Again, Bruce Lee did not compete in sanctioned matches, you can't look up on boxrec.com and see his professional record......   Did he have any legit fights?  He might have been a tough guy and sparred his students, but wouldn't these tapes you have seen be used to promote his gym?  Only makes sense he might look like a complete badass if these tapes were really nothing more then early infomercials.....   
You can't judge a guy by what you think he could have done, you have to judge a guy by what he did. He was a great promoter.  He hasnt fought for titles or won tournaments, he played a butler in the green hornet , and made kung fu movies. 

[americanbulldog]

Again, Bruce Lee did not compete in sanctioned matches, you can't look up on boxrec.com and see his professional record......   Did he have any legit fights?  He might have been a tough guy and sparred his students, but wouldn't these tapes you have seen be used to promote his gym?  Only makes sense he might look like a complete badass if these tapes were really nothing more then early infomercials.....   
You can't judge a guy by what you think he could have done, you have to judge a guy by what he did. He was a great promoter.  He hasnt fought for titles or won tournaments, he played a butler in the green hornet , and made kung fu movies. 

He thought tournaments at the time were a waste of time because of the light contact.  He called them glorified games of tag.  Many witnesses to the Wong Jack Man fight which he won convincingly.  This fight was depicted in "Dragon, the Bruce Lee story."  Unlike the movie, he wasn't hur seriously, but this fight (which allowed him to continue to teach Gwai los (white people)) is what formulated him to stop doing Kung Fu as an art.  He started using boxing, wrestling and kicking.  We can debate this all we want.  I have actually trained with Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Larry Hartsell.  I have heard first hand accounts of his "challenge" matches and am satisfied with what I know.  His infamous 1964 Karate Invitational video is all over the internet.  He spars with Taky Kimura (one of his students, full contact).  It was this appearance that got him looked at by William Dozier, the man who would cast him as Kato. 

[student]

I know Ali was great because I have a 26 dvd set of all his fights.....  If I didn't have that I could look at many magazines that showed pictures of his fights....  the fighters that he fought also had careers and accomplished some success before fighting Ali so I know he was fighting some one with a pulse......  Ali didn't make movies about being a great boxer and then kick some guys ass in a gym some where.  That's not how he built his legend.  He built it by fighting quality opponents.

[theonlyone]

naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen.

They are also believe 100 % what there media says them

[alexxx]

Fedor, end of thread.

Is that a lepricorn?