honor killin in britain: famly was getting too "westernized" for father

[haider]

Watch out Haider... Next thing you know, it'll be you're either with him, or you're with them!

The government there is very tied to the religion... Of course they don't do anything about it... Their religion and culture has that as fundamental rule.

If you think it's so bad Bruce... feel free to go over to Saudi and tell them to stop it... I'll be looking for you on the evening news.

haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.

[Debussey]

haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.

Dear Haider.

Logic and reason will always come out on top.

And there is no reason to make a code about that. 

[tu_holmes]

haha, u're quite the cultural relativist aren't you. We can definitely make moral judgements that pertain to other societies since we have the mental capacity for logic and reason. This is how we can judge one society to be morally inferior, or backwards in some respects, to another society that grants its constituents better freedoms. Abuse of women can never be good for society in any case, so u cant even make a utilitarian case for it.

I am... yes, I believe that people who don't know... just don't know... All of these things are learned traits.

Lord of the Flies... If the society is anarchy... all of the people in it will be Anarchists... same thing applies.

In a society where all treat women as possessions and objects, that's how it will be... only after education will that change.

Even our society only BEGAN to treat women as equals about 100 years ago... Women had no say and were in fact property.

I believe the Commonwealth of Virginia still has a law on the books until maybe 10 or 15 years ago that says you can not rape your wife... She is your spouse and is supposed to succumb to your desire.

They also had a law that states you can beat your wife with a stick as long as it's not bigger than your thumb in diameter.... This too was just removed recently.

These are very NEW ideas in even our society... how can we expect a society who has no where near our social advancement to be as we are... I've said it before and I'll say it again... Socially speaking, our ideas are at least 500 years more advanced than there's.

I would never say that the abuse of women is good for a society... my point is that THEY don't know it's not good... WE do... That's why in our society it's not allowed... the original point was that since this guy left his society for ours, he should assimilate to our ways and be educated that masogany is wrong and if he didn't like it... go back where he came from.

[Camel Jockey]

You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.

Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.

In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.

This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.

[BRUCE]

You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.

Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.

In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.

This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.

That's actually an excellent post, you should get drunk more often!

[Camel Jockey]

That's actually an excellent post, you should get drunk more often!

And that's after 6 shots too! 

[tu_holmes]

You simply cannot use the cultural excuse for Islam anymore. The religion itself, like all other religions, is outdated and backwards. It supresses women, discriminates against rational thinking, reasoning, and it shuns learning.

Most muslims will make excuses about how they're not a certain way and that the extreme muslims are different from most muslims. They'll argue that they're the true muslims and the islamic crazies are the wild and radical ones. However, one thing they wont dispute is that the fact the the Islamic faith teaches extreme and backwards beliefs and it also teaches supression of women. You cannot escape these facts, as they prove 1) Islam is backwards 2) Islam preaches violence.

In the global age we've seen hindus, christians and others move away from their violent past, this is simply because the rules of their faith have allowed them to do so. We don't see this with Islam, as true muslims are the terrorists and moderates are the one's who inside question their faith and on the outside continue to defend the barbaric faith that is Islam.

This may be a drunken rant but it's 100% true and you can't dispute it.

Hey, if you wanna hate on Islam, I guess that's ok... It's hard for me to do when not EVERYONE acts the same way in the faith though... There are some peaceful muslim's out there. I treat them individually...

[BRUCE]

And that's after 6 shots too! 

Get that man another drink!

[BRUCE]

Hey, if you wanna hate on Islam, I guess that's ok... It's hard for me to do when not EVERYONE acts the same way in the faith though... There are some peaceful muslim's out there. I treat them individually...

I don't think pointing out the obvious flaws in a belief system is hating anything other than beliefs.  Are you okay with that?

[tu_holmes]

I don't think pointing out the obvious flaws in a belief system is hating anything other than beliefs.  Are you okay with that?

Yes, I can agree with that statement... There are many flaws in it's belief system.

There are many flaws in pretty much any belief system... so I have no issue with what you're saying.

[BRUCE]

Yes, I can agree with that statement... There are many flaws in it's belief system.

There are many flaws in pretty much any belief system... so I have no issue with what you're saying.

Excellent!  We can only have a good debate on Islam when people realise there's nothing wrong with criticising belief systems.

[tu_holmes]

Excellent!  We can only have a good debate on Islam when people realise there's nothing wrong with criticising belief systems.

I criticize them all.

[BRUCE]

I criticize them all.

For example?

[tu_holmes]

For example?

Well, I think Christianity contains so many flaws that it's not even remotely funny... Your southern Baptists take communion but think drinking is wrong, so they drink Grape Juice... While Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.

Catholics say that Priests must be celebate however, Jesus himself (if you believe in his existance... which is highly suspect as I've recently researched) believed that marriage (and the church also believes this) is the holiest of Sacraments.

Mormons... well... we can talk about a guy getting hit on a rock and waking up to see Jesus and start a religion all day long.

Islam of course has faults, and Scientology has their crazy shit of course... I could go on.

I don't really consider Budhism a religion, but a philosophy, so I'll let it slide as I haven't researched it enough.

My point being you can criticize any religion if you really want to look at them.

[BRUCE]

Well, I think Christianity contains so many flaws that it's not even remotely funny... Your southern Baptists take communion but think drinking is wrong, so they drink Grape Juice... While Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.

Catholics say that Priests must be celebate however, Jesus himself (if you believe in his existance... which is highly suspect as I've recently researched) believed that marriage (and the church also believes this) is the holiest of Sacraments.

Mormons... well... we can talk about a guy getting hit on a rock and waking up to see Jesus and start a religion all day long.

Islam of course has faults, and Scientology has their crazy shit of course... I could go on.

I don't really consider Budhism a religion, but a philosophy, so I'll let it slide as I haven't researched it enough.

My point being you can criticize any religion if you really want to look at them.

Uh huh, you really compare all of this to a young woman unwillingly having part of her clitoris chopped off?

[tu_holmes]

Uh huh, you really compare all of this to a young woman unwillingly having part of her clitoris chopped off?

Nope... But that is not just Islam, and it's a cultural thing... I wasn't comparing them at all... Are you?

[BRUCE]

Nope... But that is not just Islam, and it's a cultural thing... I wasn't comparing them at all... Are you?

Yes, I am.  And Christianity is a much fairer and caring religion for women.

[tu_holmes]

Yes, I am.  And Christianity is a much fairer and caring religion for women.

Interesting... I wasn't comparing... However, it is funny... they weren't always that way... Women are property in the Bible too.

Whatever you wanna go with though.

[BRUCE]

Interesting... I wasn't comparing... However, it is funny... they weren't always that way... Women are property in the Bible too.

Whatever you wanna go with though.

Perhaps you should pay more attention to how Christians act, rather than what you believe the Bible says.

[Nordic Superman]

Muslim men are not taught to abuse their wives. Education is the biggest factor here (teh logic and reason). No educated muslim will tell you it is okay to beat your wife. This applies to all human beings.

Ironic you should say this, given the FACT that a lot of islamic fundamentalists in western society come from rich, highly educated backgrounds.

Refute it.

[tu_holmes]

Perhaps you should pay more attention to how Christians act, rather than what you believe the Bible says.

There are Christians who kill drown their children, commit adultery (If you think it's a sin), and beat their wives too... What's their excuse?

[Nordic Superman]

There are Christians who kill drown their children, commit adultery (If you think it's a sin), and beat their wives too... What's their excuse?

But who acts upon the verses to this very day? Who's progressed and who hasn't?

Why continue to degrade Christianity which has progressed considerably to favour the primitive non-progressive islamic "faith"?

[tu_holmes]

But who acts upon the verses to this very day? Who's progressed and who hasn't?

Why continue to degrade Christianity which has progressed considerably to favour the primitive non-progressive islamic "faith"?

Hey man... I'm just calling it like I see it... I think all religions are a sham, but if you want to take all that's good... you gotta take what comes out that's bad... A lot of Islam's don't see the hate in their religion, but apparently you do.

[24KT]

Yes you're right, and women in general have more to fear in their daily lives than men do. As far as spousal violence goes, it transcends many societal factors... rich, poor, ethnicity, etc... abused women are found in every walk of life. This particular case is a little more specific. A few crude examples would be: if I read that a murdering rapist was loose in my town, I'd worry.  If I heard only blonde women were targeted, I'd be 100 times more worried. Men pulverize each other in bars every weekend. If I were your average caucasian jock, I'd take my chances in any jock, sports bar.  If I were gay, however, I'd worry a lot more about getting the beatdown of my life any time I stepped into one. This is like that. Women of a certain community are sent a message that if they don't toe the line, they could be next. I'm a little surprised that an emancipated woman would downplay this.  You're entitled to your opinion of course. Just a little surprised. If Amish men in particular were abusing or victimizing women, I would hope that would be discovered and exposed.  Why is exposing this any different? Should people be silent to avoid offending others of another culture?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be exposed or that people should be silent to avoid offending others of another culture.

I'm saying it is what it is... another case of domestic violence, and to report it in a way that makes it infammatory against muslims detracts from the fact that it is domestic violence that cuts across all walks of society. Is it any more outrageous that a Muslim woman was killed? Should we have more empathy for her and her family than we do for a blonde haired, blue eyed, WASP woman murdered at the hands of her husband? I say NO. Each incident should provoke an equal outrage, ...but that's not the case is it?

[24KT]

Dear Haider.

Logic and reason will always come out on top.

And there is no reason to make a code about that. 

Didn't seem to help the US at the polls in 2000 ...or 2004