What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad

[loco]

John Day? He was born before this country was even created... A printer born in the 1500s, what the heck does John Day have to do with anything?

Not John Day, John Jay:

John Jay(December 12, 1745 – May 17, 1829) was an American politician, statesman, revolutionary, diplomat, and jurist. Considered one of the "founding fathers" of the United States,
one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York).

Oh, and you know he fled England to avoid religious persecution right?

Yes, many protestants fled Europe to avoid religious persecution from the Roman Catholic Church.

In God We Trust wasn't even thought of until 1861... so please don't show printed money as a sign that the founding fathers supported religion in government... It just was not the case.

I know.  Relax.  I only posted the printed money as a response, in good fun, to Straw Man's quote below.   

I would say more but I need to go pay homage to the true religious belief of this country which is the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

[tu_holmes]

Not John Day, John Jay:

John Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York).

Ah... I see... He also proposed several amendments to the religious tolerance clause, restricting the rights of Catholics unless they swore allegiance to the state superceding any allegiance to their Church or Pope.

That sounds like the opposite of what you describe.

Then again, he disliked Catholics as was normal for the time.

So it's OK to follow God, but not if you're a Catholic.

The guy sounds like a hypocrite.

[loco]

Ah... I see... He also proposed several amendments to the religious tolerance clause, restricting the rights of Catholics unless they swore allegiance to the state superceding any allegiance to their Church or Pope.

A good thing he did.
 

That sounds like the opposite of what you describe.

Then again, he disliked Catholics as was normal for the time.

What?  How is that the opposite of what I described?  Did I not say

"Yes, many protestants fled Europe to avoid religious persecution from the Roman Catholic Church." ?

So it's OK to follow God, but not if you're a Catholic.

The guy sounds like a hypocrite.

You call your own founding fathers hypocrites?  Okay.   

[Dos Equis]

I think it's bad for any country to be run, in part or in whole, based on belief in a fable.

If one chooses to believe it as "truth" and conduct their own life based on this then I think one should be free to do so, provided that belief doesn't compell (or require) said person to impose their beliefs onto others or society at large. 

I like Jefferson's simple way of addressing this issue:

 "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

I would say more but I need to go pay homage to the true religious belief of this country which is the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

What about the fact that millions in this country believe in God?  Many of those people serve in public office.  In fact, we (the people) will not put a person in high public office who does not have some measure of religious faith.

I don't believe religious doctrine can or should control how we run the country, but you cannot expect people to check their personal beliefs at the door either.  We bring all of our life experiences, including our faith, to the table, whether we acknowledge it or not. 

[loco]

Ah... I see... He also proposed several amendments to the religious tolerance clause, restricting the rights of Catholics unless they swore allegiance to the state superceding any allegiance to their Church or Pope.

That sounds like the opposite of what you describe.

Then again, he disliked Catholics as was normal for the time.

So it's OK to follow God, but not if you're a Catholic.

The guy sounds like a hypocrite.

"The Christianity practiced in America was described by John Jay as "wise and virtuous," 19

by John Quincy Adams as "civilized," 20

and by John Adams as "rational." 21

A clear distinction was drawn between American Christianity and that of Europe in earlier centuries. As Noah Webster explained:
 
The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it.22
 
Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:
Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron] are unknown—general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land!23"

Endnotes
19. John Jay, Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, editor (New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p. 491, Address to the Annual Meeting of the American Bible Society, May 8, 1823.

20. John Quincy Adams,An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at Their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), p. 17.
 
21. John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1856), Vol. IX, p. 121, in a speech to both houses of Congress, November 23, 1797.

22 Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 339.

23. Daniel Webster, Mr. Webster’s Speech in Defence of the Christian Ministry and In favor of the Religious Instruction of the Young. Delivered in the Supreme Court of the United States, February 10, 1844, in the Case of Stephen Girard’s Will (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1844), p. 52.

[tu_holmes]

A good thing he did.
 
What?  How is that the opposite of what I described?  Did I not say

"Yes, many protestants fled Europe to avoid religious persecution from the Roman Catholic Church." ?

You call your own founding fathers hypocrites?  Okay.   

How is that good?

Yes, he's a hypocrite because he's saying religious freedom if you're him and God this God that... unless you're Catholic.

That is hypocritical.

[loco]

How is that good?

Yes, he's a hypocrite because he's saying religious freedom if you're him and God this God that... unless you're Catholic.

That is hypocritical.

Read my post above.

[tu_holmes]

Read my post above.

All religions are in themselves Tyrannical...

They are all wielding power without anyone to answer to except the invisible spaghetti monster in the sky.

[loco]

All religions are in themselves Tyrannical...

They are all wielding power without anyone to answer to except the invisible spaghetti monster in the sky.

Read the life and teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible.  Then tell me if that's tyrannical.

[tu_holmes]

Read the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.  Then tell me if that tyrannical.

Jesus didn't even exist!

I have gotten into this a billion times... There was no Jesus. No documents discuss him until even 150 years after his supposed death... I could go on and on. Let's just say for a second he did....

Just because Jesus talked about goodness and harmony does not mean that Religion has not perverted his sayings to mean otherwise.

I'm not against faith... but "religion", organized religion, is a sham.

[Straw Man]

I respect your opinion, but it seems your founding fathers would disagree.

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world" - John Jay

you've got one quote from one person and that proves your position?  I'm a bit pressed for time but I dig up a contrary quote from another founding father later and I guess that will prove that it's not true.

BTW - when did the founding fathers add "in God We Trust" to US currency.

Wait - who are the founding fathers again - shouldn't we clarify that too.

Or maybe we can just look at the Constitution.   Do you find any mention of Jesus or God

[Straw Man]

Read the life and teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible.  Then tell me if that's tyrannical.

it's a story in a book - nothing more

Of course - that's my opinion and luckily in the US one is entitled to their own opinion on this subject

[loco]

you've got one quote from one person and that proves your position?  I'm a bit pressed for time but I dig up a contrary quote from another founding father later and I guess that will prove that it's not true.

No.  I was repeating only one quote that I had already posted.  Did you miss all of the quotes from all of those guys above?  I have more if you want me to go on.

BTW - when did the founding fathers add "in God We Trust" to US currency.

I posted that only in response to your quote below.  It's just humor, so relax.   

I would say more but I need to go pay homage to the true religious belief of this country which is the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

[loco]

Jesus didn't even exist!

I have gotten into this a billion times... There was no Jesus. No documents discuss him until even 150 years after his supposed death... I could go on and on.

Hey man, even if you don't believe in God, Jesus did exist.  He is a historical figure, even if you don't believe that he is the Son of God.  None of the following came from the Bible and their sources are NOT Christian:

Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Endnotes
Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
Talmudic designation of Jesus.
"Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.

[Cavalier22]

John Jay was born in New York City.  He didn't fell anywhere.

Many people came to the US from Europe to avoid persecution from Catholics, the Church of England, Lutherans, etc. 

I would venture a guess than many more Catholics came here to avoid discrimination than Protestants.

[loco]

John Jay was born in New York City.  He didn't fell anywhere.

Many people came to the US from Europe to avoid persecution from Catholics, the Church of England, Lutherans, etc. 

I would venture a guess than many more Catholics came here to avoid discrimination than Protestants.

tu_holmes is the one who said John Jay fled England.  I didn't say it.  I try not to venture guesses.

[loco]

Wait - who are the founding fathers again - shouldn't we clarify that too.

You quoted Wikipedia earlier.  So here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Signatories_of_the_Declaration_of_Independence

[loco]

Samuel Adams

Rights of the Colonists, 1772:
The rights of the colonists as Christians … may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.…

"Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty," in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all men are clearly entitled to by the eternal and immutable laws of God and nature, as well as by the law of nations and all well-grounded municipal laws, which must have their foundation in the former.…

"American Independence" Speech, 1 August 1776:
Our forefathers … opened the Bible to all, and maintained the capacity of every man to judge for himself in religion. Are we sufficient for the comprehension of the sublimest spiritual truths, and unequal to material and temporal ones? We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds his subjects assuming that freedom of thought and dignity of self-direction which he bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun, may his kingdom come!

Letter to John Adams, 4 October 1790:
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.

[loco]

Patrick Henry

A written statement on the back of Henry's Stamp Act Resolves:
     This [the Stamp Act] brought on the war which finally separated the two countries and gave independence to ours. Whether this will prove a blessing or a curse, will depend upon the use or people make of the blessings, which a gracious God hath bestowed on us.
     If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable.
     Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.
 
Speech of March 23, 1775:
     Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people,  armed in the Holy cause of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us.
     Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations; and who will raise up friends to fight our battle for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.…
     Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

 
Letter to his daughter, Betsy, 20 August 1796:
     Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.
 
Patrick Henry's Will:
     This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed.

[Straw Man]

You quoted Wikipedia earlier.  So here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Signatories_of_the_Declaration_of_Independence

Fair enough - let's go with that list.  Now If I start posting quote after quote from these guys about their religious beliefs or lack there of would it really make any difference?  I'm really pressed for time today but I could probably do it tonight.

BTW - can you show me any reference to Jesus or God in the Constitution?  If this country were really founded upon Christian beliefs you'd think it would be mentioned somewhere in that document

As I've stated before I have no doubt that many of the "founding fathers" held personal beliefs that could be identified as Christian (and many also did not) but there's nothing in the Consitution to support the proposition that our country was founded upon such beliefs and in fact (as posted earlier) the US Government has officially stated that fact

[Straw Man]

No.  I was repeating only one quote that I had already posted.  Did you miss all of the quotes from all of those guys above?  I have more if you want me to go on.

I posted that only in response to your quote below.  It's just humor, so relax.   

Sorry - I though you were trying to be factual

[tu_holmes]

tu_holmes is the one who said John Jay fled England.  I didn't say it.  I try not to venture guesses.

I said I made a mistake... I thought you said John "D"ay... who was a printer in the 1500s I made a mistake on the "name"

[tu_holmes]

Hey man, even if you don't believe in God, Jesus did exist.  He is a historical figure, even if you don't believe that he is the Son of God.  None of the following came from the Bible and their sources are NOT Christian:

Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Endnotes
Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
Talmudic designation of Jesus.
"Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.

Every single one of these people you quote was at least 100 years after "Jesus" supposedly had lived.

Why are there no documents mentioning him while he's alive? We have documents discussing many people WHILE "Jesus" was supposedly alive, but nothing that mentions Jesus?

That's a sham.

[Cavalier22]

You really think Jesus did not exist?  I'm sure there was at least some obscure preacher person executed and then had his life and image used to start a new religion many years later by some ambitious people.

[tu_holmes]

You really think Jesus did not exist?  I'm sure there was at least some obscure preacher person executed and then had his life and image used to start a new religion many years later by some ambitious people.

I am 50/50 on the issue... I've done some research and I just can't find any documentation saying he existed until long after his death was to have happened (100 years after almost).

We have documents about David, Paul, and John (his beheading is in historical documentation aside from the Bible), but nothing about Jesus.

Don't you find that odd?