Author Topic: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?  (Read 22615 times)

Matt C

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Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« on: March 11, 2007, 03:35:50 PM »
I was gung-ho about getting back into it and applying the following:

- Adonis nutrition principles
- Milos' gym principles
- Gaspari SIZEON / Betancourt Nutrition High C

Then speaking with TA and McFarland about this, I can't believe some of the stuff being said.  They are suggesting I drop 20-40 pounds to gain muscle.  ???

Discuss.
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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 03:36:46 PM »
I was gung-ho about getting back into it and applying the following:

- Adonis nutrition principles
- Milos' gym principles
- Gaspari SIZEON / Betancourt Nutrition High C

Then speaking with TA and a friend about this, I can't believe some of the stuff being said.  They are suggesting I drop 20-40 pounds to gain muscle.  ???

Discuss.

post a current pic and your current work out and dietary habits
Here comes the money shot

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 03:42:19 PM »
Matt, can you tell me the difference between the Adonis principles and the Weight Watchers Flex program?

Flex program

The Flex system is, in essence, a simple way to quantify a participant's caloric intake and energy expenditure. Various servings of food are assigned a specific number of points, and various types of exercise are assigned negative numbers of points; a program participant is allocated a certain number of points per day, with that number based on the individual's current weight and weight goals.

The effect of this is that the participant is not restricted from eating any specific type of food, but they must stay under their total point value for the week. This stands in marked contrast to diet approaches such as the South Beach diet or the Atkins diet, under which some foods are completely forbidden and others are permitted in theoretically unlimited amounts. The participant's ability to factor exercise into the plan increases its flexibility: the participant can eat more points as long as they offset them with exercise, or eat fewer points if they prefer not to exercise.

Many Weight Watchers proponents enjoy the Flex system precisely because no food is out of bounds, as long as it is eaten in moderation, and because exercise can be factored in. (In the UK, Weight Watchers advertises under the slogan "Where no food is a sin"; this is a reference to its chief competitor Slimming World's system of giving some food "sin" values.) Others, however, dislike the record-keeping that the plan imposes on the participant, who must essentially keep track of the points value of everything they eat; they prefer other plans that place restrictions on types of food rather than amounts of food.

[edit] The POINTS formula

The formula for calculating the POINTS content of a specific food serving uses a formula described in US Patent 6,040,531:

    p(c,f,r) = \frac{c}{50} + \frac{f}{12} - \frac{\min\{r,4\}}{5}

Where p is the number of points, c is the number of calories, f is the grams of fat, and r is the grams of dietary fiber (if the dietary fiber is greater than four, use four). The POINTS value is always an integer, with fractional values rounded to the nearest point. (An alternative format, mentioned in the patent and used on some websites, rounds values to the nearest half-point.)

The above formula can be expressed in OpenOffice.org Calc as follows:

=(B1/50)+(B2/12)-(IF(B3>4;4;B3)/5)

Where B1 is calories, B2 is fat in grams, and B3 is fibre.

This looks very complicated, but it should be emphasized that new U.S. members are given a cardboard slide rule: by reading the U.S. nutrition label on any food package and quickly adjusting three of the slide rule scales for Calories, Fat, and Fiber, the points are easily determined by inspection of the fourth scale.

A small paperback book is available for purchase that lists thousands of foods for sale in Fast Food outlets, restaurant chains, and even generic restaurant foods, e.g. "Mexican: Refried Beans, 1/2 cup" and the corresponding point value. This is for use in cases where the nutritional label is not available.

An early version of the POINTS system did not limit the fiber "credit" to four grams. Another variation, which may be explained by rounding, is that the "POINTSfinder" manual calculator distributed at Weight Watchers meetings does not reach a POINTS value of 2 until after 70 calories have been reached, rather than 50 as the formula would indicate. As a result, point boundaries are 20 calories (or 4.8 fat grams) higher than might be expected. Though the patent mentions possibly using 70 rather than 50 as the single point baseline, that method is said to be intended for use by dieters who do not use fiber as a "point enhancer" (reducer).

More recent versions of the program, such as that described in US Patent 6,878,885, take exercise and physical activity into account to grant additional points in the daily allowance.

In Europe and some other areas or countries, including Australia and New Zealand, the nutrition labels are markedly different; in particular they normally show kiljoules rather than calories, and may not include fibre. Thus, the POINTS formula varies and it calculated only from energy (as kilojoules) and saturated fat. This formula is expressed in UK Patent 2302605 as:

    p = \frac{e}{k1} + \frac{f}{k2}

Where a is the number of points, b is the energy value, and zx is the grams of saturated fat. The constants are k1 and k2 are described as such: k1 is chosen so that the points target will be in the low tens. If the energy value is to be entered in calories, then k2 will be within the range of k1/35 and k1/10, ideally k1/17.5. If the energy value is defined in kilojoules, then the value of k2 will be between k1/146.7 and k1/41.8, ideally being k1/72.8.

A practical implementation of this formula for a kilojoule-based calculation appears to be:

    p = \frac{e}{300} + \frac{f}{4.12}

The resultant value, p is then rounded to the nearest half.

[edit] Plans

[edit] The Core Plan

In part as a response to the popularity of plans like Atkins and South Beach, Weight Watchers has recently developed a separate plan, known as the Core Plan. This plan classifies certain types of food as "core," and permits participants to eat core foods with the restriction that they should only eat these foods "until satisfied, not full." Core foods are a list of healthy foods from all the food groups, including fruits, vegetables, fat free dairy, lean meats, and whole grains. Non-core foods are assigned the usual point values, and participants are given an allottment of 35 non-core points that they can eat in a week.

[edit] The Flex Plan

Under this plan, participants are assigned a set number of points to consume per day based on their current weight. The number of points allowed may be increased with exercise. The "Flex" part of the plan is that several additional points are allotted (which is not based on weight) that can be used or not used during the week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_Watchers
E

McFarland

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 03:42:33 PM »
I didn't suggest that you "start the Adonis principles" necessarily.  I said that you should drop your bodyweight to 160 and in the process find a way to move more weight per unit time during your workouts because in doing so you will carry, at 160, more muscle than you currently carry at a bodyweight of 180.  

I didn't say to eat clean, and I didn't say to eat dirty.  I didn't say to do it with no effort, and I didn't say you should suffer.  I said FIND A WAY to get to 160.  It will involve either unrestricted activity levels, restricted eating, or some combination of the 2.   

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 03:44:50 PM »
I've seen pictures of Matt C.

You people suggesting he drop to 160 are out of your minds.  He says he's current 195 so I say he should lose about 15 pounds.

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 03:45:56 PM »
I thought you said you weighed 195 in the pictures you posted.

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 03:46:40 PM »
I have no current gym pics, just some bar pics from last night and the pics from the Arnold and I look like shit.  Take my old pics and take away probably 20 pounds in the same condition.  I haven't stepped on a scale in months though.  My diet is ok, but lower in calories then before and I dropped weight.

I wanted to get at least back to my old current weight of 200 then maybe shoot for 210.

Why don't you do apply Matt C principles?

I'm sure you picked up adequate nutrition knowledge over the years, as well as training experience.

Why not put all of that experience to use?

If you need a good book, try Sports Nutrition by Ron Maughan.

Just reading about veggies and stuff on bodybuilding.com will do as well. 8)

You've benched 315 lbs for reps, so I'm sure you know enough as it is.

-Hedge
As empty as paradise

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 03:49:15 PM »
Lift heavy weights. Eat alot of protein. 30 mins cardio a day. Why make things harder than they have to be?

Do not under ANY circumstances follow 'the Adonis principles'. Do you really want to end up looking like him or 'buttsuck'?


McFarland

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 03:50:26 PM »
I've seen pictures of Matt C.

You people suggesting he drop to 160 are out of your minds.  He says he's current 195 so I say he should lose about 15 pounds.

He said he's currently 180 in this picture taken at the Arnold.  He says he's 5'9".  IMO, he cannot go wrong (if his goal is to carry more muscle AND look better if right) getting to 160 while working his ass off with an appreciable amount of resistance training involved. 

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 03:52:52 PM »
195-205, depending on the picture.  In the back double biceps picture for example, I was 197.

HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGH IN THAT PICTURE MATT. 

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 03:54:33 PM »
Matt, can you tell me the difference between the Adonis principles and the Weight Watchers Flex program?

Flex program

The Flex system is, in essence, a simple way to quantify a participant's caloric intake and energy expenditure. Various servings of food are assigned a specific number of points, and various types of exercise are assigned negative numbers of points; a program participant is allocated a certain number of points per day, with that number based on the individual's current weight and weight goals.

The effect of this is that the participant is not restricted from eating any specific type of food, but they must stay under their total point value for the week. This stands in marked contrast to diet approaches such as the South Beach diet or the Atkins diet, under which some foods are completely forbidden and others are permitted in theoretically unlimited amounts. The participant's ability to factor exercise into the plan increases its flexibility: the participant can eat more points as long as they offset them with exercise, or eat fewer points if they prefer not to exercise.

Many Weight Watchers proponents enjoy the Flex system precisely because no food is out of bounds, as long as it is eaten in moderation, and because exercise can be factored in. (In the UK, Weight Watchers advertises under the slogan "Where no food is a sin"; this is a reference to its chief competitor Slimming World's system of giving some food "sin" values.) Others, however, dislike the record-keeping that the plan imposes on the participant, who must essentially keep track of the points value of everything they eat; they prefer other plans that place restrictions on types of food rather than amounts of food.

[edit] The POINTS formula

The formula for calculating the POINTS content of a specific food serving uses a formula described in US Patent 6,040,531:

    p(c,f,r) = \frac{c}{50} + \frac{f}{12} - \frac{\min\{r,4\}}{5}

Where p is the number of points, c is the number of calories, f is the grams of fat, and r is the grams of dietary fiber (if the dietary fiber is greater than four, use four). The POINTS value is always an integer, with fractional values rounded to the nearest point. (An alternative format, mentioned in the patent and used on some websites, rounds values to the nearest half-point.)

The above formula can be expressed in OpenOffice.org Calc as follows:

=(B1/50)+(B2/12)-(IF(B3>4;4;B3)/5)

Where B1 is calories, B2 is fat in grams, and B3 is fibre.

This looks very complicated, but it should be emphasized that new U.S. members are given a cardboard slide rule: by reading the U.S. nutrition label on any food package and quickly adjusting three of the slide rule scales for Calories, Fat, and Fiber, the points are easily determined by inspection of the fourth scale.

A small paperback book is available for purchase that lists thousands of foods for sale in Fast Food outlets, restaurant chains, and even generic restaurant foods, e.g. "Mexican: Refried Beans, 1/2 cup" and the corresponding point value. This is for use in cases where the nutritional label is not available.

An early version of the POINTS system did not limit the fiber "credit" to four grams. Another variation, which may be explained by rounding, is that the "POINTSfinder" manual calculator distributed at Weight Watchers meetings does not reach a POINTS value of 2 until after 70 calories have been reached, rather than 50 as the formula would indicate. As a result, point boundaries are 20 calories (or 4.8 fat grams) higher than might be expected. Though the patent mentions possibly using 70 rather than 50 as the single point baseline, that method is said to be intended for use by dieters who do not use fiber as a "point enhancer" (reducer).

More recent versions of the program, such as that described in US Patent 6,878,885, take exercise and physical activity into account to grant additional points in the daily allowance.

In Europe and some other areas or countries, including Australia and New Zealand, the nutrition labels are markedly different; in particular they normally show kiljoules rather than calories, and may not include fibre. Thus, the POINTS formula varies and it calculated only from energy (as kilojoules) and saturated fat. This formula is expressed in UK Patent 2302605 as:

    p = \frac{e}{k1} + \frac{f}{k2}

Where a is the number of points, b is the energy value, and zx is the grams of saturated fat. The constants are k1 and k2 are described as such: k1 is chosen so that the points target will be in the low tens. If the energy value is to be entered in calories, then k2 will be within the range of k1/35 and k1/10, ideally k1/17.5. If the energy value is defined in kilojoules, then the value of k2 will be between k1/146.7 and k1/41.8, ideally being k1/72.8.

A practical implementation of this formula for a kilojoule-based calculation appears to be:

    p = \frac{e}{300} + \frac{f}{4.12}

The resultant value, p is then rounded to the nearest half.

[edit] Plans

[edit] The Core Plan

In part as a response to the popularity of plans like Atkins and South Beach, Weight Watchers has recently developed a separate plan, known as the Core Plan. This plan classifies certain types of food as "core," and permits participants to eat core foods with the restriction that they should only eat these foods "until satisfied, not full." Core foods are a list of healthy foods from all the food groups, including fruits, vegetables, fat free dairy, lean meats, and whole grains. Non-core foods are assigned the usual point values, and participants are given an allottment of 35 non-core points that they can eat in a week.

[edit] The Flex Plan

Under this plan, participants are assigned a set number of points to consume per day based on their current weight. The number of points allowed may be increased with exercise. The "Flex" part of the plan is that several additional points are allotted (which is not based on weight) that can be used or not used during the week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_Watchers

Point system is INNACCURATE.

Now for the 4985349583489534 Time.

Fucking READ


Again.
"Well, it works like this. I have come up with a formula that determines down to the exact limit of how much heat I release in a closed system. I have come up with this formula based solely on each individuals performance so Anyone is capable of doing this.

Here is a before and after. I haver ALWAYS been a hard trainer and have used conventional methods in the past regarding diet. I have gotten lean on the typical bodybuilder diet, but I also got WEAKER,more tired,felt awful and not to mention it is inconvenient,not economical or practical.

I got fat eating Chicken Breast and Oatmeal and eating clean, I got Ripped eating, Ice Cream and Krispy Kreme.

The idea of eating 700 lbs of meat(350 grams of protein a day for a year) to build about 48 ounces of muscle(about the lifetime natural limit`s average muscle building potential) is just an inefficient waste of heat energy. The body is an effecient processor and science dictates that eating in this manner is futile and pointless. This being based on the conversion of energy. It simply makes zero sense to put in 700 lbs of potential energy to convert into 48 ounces of a different form of stored potential energy. It does not add up!
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed so as you can see, most of this 700 lbs is just wasted potential energy.

Now my equation can be utilized by anyone to be whatever Bodyfat their heart desires at any given time. This means anyone can also hold whatever conditioning they want indefinitely since they know their heat values. They can adjust accordingly at any moment up or down to manipulate fat storage.....You can essentially pick a single date on the calendar and to the DAY, determine EXACTLY what bodyfat you will be.

I also do no cardio and lift about 3 or 4 days a week.

The best part is, you do this by eating whatever your heart desires. I like Burger King,Krispy Kreme,Cake and Cookies and Pizza. So that is what I eat. I also eat off the Food Network. And my favorite, Ice Cream! Everyday! hahah MY girlfriend is one hell of a cook and we like to pick up specials from the fish market as well. The choices are limitless....Whatever you want."
-The True Adonis


danielson

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Re: Matt C considers the Adonis Principles.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 03:56:16 PM »
Well whats the formula then?
E

McFarland

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 03:59:33 PM »
MATT C IS 180 IN THAT PICTURE.  So where's his bodyweight need to go next to maximize the rate in which he will build muscle?  I say 160, over a period of 8-12 weeks.    

Even if he juices, he needs to get to 165, tops.  I'm not saying where he should go from there.  But to get his ass in bodybuilding gear (no pun intended), he will be best served by making a B-line to VERY LEAN before going any farther. 

Discuss.   

chaos

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Re: Matt C considers the Adonis Principles.
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 04:00:33 PM »
Well whats the formula then?
it's stuck in the pocket of his gravity suit
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

affy

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Re: Starting the Adonis principles.
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 04:01:59 PM »
Point system is INNACCURATE.

Now for the 4985349583489534 Time.

Fucking READ


Again.
"Well, it works like this. I have come up with a formula that determines down to the exact limit of how much heat I release in a closed system. I have come up with this formula based solely on each individuals performance so Anyone is capable of doing this.

Here is a before and after. I haver ALWAYS been a hard trainer and have used conventional methods in the past regarding diet. I have gotten lean on the typical bodybuilder diet, but I also got WEAKER,more tired,felt awful and not to mention it is inconvenient,not economical or practical.

I got fat eating Chicken Breast and Oatmeal and eating clean, I got Ripped eating, Ice Cream and Krispy Kreme.

The idea of eating 700 lbs of meat(350 grams of protein a day for a year) to build about 48 ounces of muscle(about the lifetime natural limit`s average muscle building potential) is just an inefficient waste of heat energy. The body is an effecient processor and science dictates that eating in this manner is futile and pointless. This being based on the conversion of energy. It simply makes zero sense to put in 700 lbs of potential energy to convert into 48 ounces of a different form of stored potential energy. It does not add up!
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed so as you can see, most of this 700 lbs is just wasted potential energy.

Now my equation can be utilized by anyone to be whatever Bodyfat their heart desires at any given time. This means anyone can also hold whatever conditioning they want indefinitely since they know their heat values. They can adjust accordingly at any moment up or down to manipulate fat storage.....You can essentially pick a single date on the calendar and to the DAY, determine EXACTLY what bodyfat you will be.

I also do no cardio and lift about 3 or 4 days a week.

The best part is, you do this by eating whatever your heart desires. I like Burger King,Krispy Kreme,Cake and Cookies and Pizza. So that is what I eat. I also eat off the Food Network. And my favorite, Ice Cream! Everyday! hahah MY girlfriend is one hell of a cook and we like to pick up specials from the fish market as well. The choices are limitless....Whatever you want."
-The True Adonis



listen you want people to stop calling you and your methods retarded

then post your formula or stfu

we'll judge how effective it is

btw meltdown in biblical proportions by me:D

McFarland

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 04:04:04 PM »
I'm not saying I wouldn't look better at 165, but I don't understand how I can be more muscular?  Don't virtually 100% of bodybuilders (natural or sauced to the max) bulk up and then cut down?  ???

Define "muscular," as you understand the definition of the word. 

The Squadfather

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 04:06:28 PM »
Define "muscular," as you understand the definition of the word. 
got your squat up to 200 yet Jeff?

danielson

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 04:06:39 PM »
Matt C, can you tell me the difference between the Weight Watchers Flex program and the Adonis Principles? I have read a few paragraphs with opinions, so can you please tell me only the facts? I am just curious as to why you would choose one over the other.
E

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 04:08:21 PM »
TA when are you going to actually unveil this formula with any of your case studies?
:)

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 04:09:30 PM »
matt - tell us about your milos training protocols.

The gaspari sizeon is AWESOME, seriously.  and the betancourt stuff is great too, easy on the belly.

The Squadfather

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2007, 04:10:05 PM »
when are you guys going to understand, figure out how many calories you burn in a day and then don't consume more than that, eat whatever you want as long as you don't exceed it.

danielson

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2007, 04:10:40 PM »
when are you guys going to understand, figure out how many calories you burn in a day and then don't consume more than that, eat whatever you want as long as you don't exceed it.

Like the Weight Watchers Flex program?
E

The Squadfather

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2007, 04:12:11 PM »
Like the Weight Watchers Flex program?
calories in vs. calories out my friend, it's that simple.

Matt C

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2007, 04:14:24 PM »
Discuss.
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McFarland

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Re: Are the Adonis Principles right for Matt C?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2007, 04:14:55 PM »
got your squat up to 200 yet Jeff?

Yes.   ;D

But I wanted to ask you.  How much should I be squatting, for how many reps, at a VERY LEAN 210 pounds before you find it respectable?  I'm serious, I wanna know a goal for myself.  Or is being VERY LEAN at 210 ever respectable to you given that I am 6'1"?  I'm being serious here; I like you.  ;D  Because 210-215's where I've decided to go next before anything else.