Author Topic: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article  (Read 3370 times)

BayGBM

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Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« on: March 15, 2007, 12:43:11 PM »
Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
Baptist Seminary Leader Sparks Furor With "Is Your Baby Gay?" Article

The president of the leading Southern Baptist seminary has incurred sharp attacks from both the left and right by suggesting that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven, and that prenatal treatment to reverse gay orientation would be biblically justified.

The Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the country's pre-eminent evangelical leaders, acknowledged that he irked many fellow conservatives with an article earlier this month saying scientific research "points to some level of biological causation" for homosexuality.

Proof of a biological basis would challenge the belief of many conservative Christians that homosexuality _ which they view as sinful _ is a matter of choice that can be overcome through prayer and counseling.

However, Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., was assailed even more harshly by gay-rights supporters. They were upset by his assertion that homosexuality would remain a sin even if it were biologically based, and by his support for possible medical treatment that could switch an unborn gay baby's sexual orientation to heterosexual.

"He's willing to play God," said Harry Knox, a spokesman on religious issues for the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay-rights group. "He's more than willing to let homophobia take over and be the determinant of how he responds to this issue, in spite of everything else he believes about not tinkering with the unborn."

Mohler said he was aware of the invective being directed at him on gay-rights blogs, where some participants have likened him to Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor notorious for death-camp experimentation.

"I wonder if people actually read what I wrote," Mohler said in a telephone interview. "But I wrote the article intending to start a conversation, and I think I've been successful at that."

The article, published March 2 on Mohler's personal Web site, carried a long but intriguing title: "Is Your Baby Gay? What If You Could Know? What If You Could Do Something About It?"

Mohler began by summarizing some recent research into sexual orientation, and advising his Christian readership that they should brace for the possibility that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven.

Mohler wrote that such proof would not alter the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, but said the discovery would be "of great pastoral significance, allowing for a greater understanding of why certain persons struggle with these particular sexual temptations."

He also referred to a recent article in the pop-culture magazine Radar, which explored the possibility that sexual orientation could be detected in unborn babies and raised the question of whether parents _ even liberals who support gay rights _ might be open to trying future prenatal techniques that would reverse homosexuality.

Mohler said he would strongly oppose any move to encourage abortion or genetic manipulation of fetuses on grounds of sexual orientation, but he would endorse prenatal hormonal treatment _ if such a technology were developed _ to reverse homosexuality. He said this would no different, in moral terms, to using technology that would restore vision to a blind fetus.

"I realize this sounds very offensive to homosexuals, but it's the only way a Christian can look at it," Mohler said. "We should have no more problem with that than treating any medical problem."

Mohler's argument was endorsed by a prominent Roman Catholic thinker, the Rev. Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Fla., and editor of Ignatius Press, Pope Benedict XVI's U.S. publisher.

"Same-sex activity is considered disordered," Fessio said. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science."

Such logic dismayed Jennier Chrisler of Family Pride, a group that supports gay and lesbian families.

"What bothers me is the hypocrisy," she said. "In one breath, they say the sanctity of an unborn life is unconditional, and in the next breath, it's OK to perform medical treatments on them because of their own moral convictions, not because there's anything wrong with the child."

Paul Myers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota-Morris, wrote a detailed critique of Mohler's column, contending that there could be many genes contributing to sexual orientation and that medical attempts to alter it could be risky.

"If there are such genes, they will also contribute to other aspects of social and sexual interactions," Myers wrote. "Disentangling the nuances of preference from the whole damn problem of loving people might well be impossible."

Not all reaction to Mohler's article has been negative.

Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York City psychiatrist critical of those who consider homosexuality a disorder, commended Mohler's openness to the prospect that it is biologically based.

"This represents a major shift," Drescher said. "This is a man who actually has an open mind, who is struggling to reconcile his religious beliefs with facts that contradict it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/14/ap/national/main2571303.shtml

Butterbean

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 01:07:29 PM »
Nutty! 

If they are ever able to test for things like that (which they won't be), why isn't the focus on something like psychopathy first and then a host of other things before homosexuality?  Wouldn't it benefit the world more to "vaccinate" the psychopathic fetuses instead? ::)

Bay, considering the anguish and struggles you've witnessed and experienced regarding homosexual orientation, if there were such a "vaccination" would you support it? 
R

BayGBM

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 01:47:41 PM »
No, for a variety of reasons.  Certainly, my life would have been easier had I been straight, but would I be the same person?  Would I have the same values?  Would I be as interested in social justice and equality for all. Probably not.  Like most well adjusted minorities, I’m too invested in who I am to give it all up simply to have an “easier” life.  I wouldn’t give up being African American either though being white would obviously have given me an easier path in life.  Would you choose to be male?  Or choose to have a male child?  The preference for male children is so extreme in India and China that female infants are often killed, abandoned or thrown away.

Beyond the personal there are natural and scientific concerns to the hypothetical you pose.  I addressed this somewhat in this thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133463.msg1889091#msg1889091

As I mentioned there, I believe that Nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  I don’t pretend to know what that reason is, but I believe it exists.

If at some future date we are able to screen embryos for a host of factors, we will likely reach a point when a fertility doctor will say to a couple, “we’ve screened your embryo and noticed that X, Y, & Z genes are mutated.  Would you like us to screen that out?”   Almost everyone would say “yes” to this question but they may do so without understanding that mutated or “defective” genes are not always bad.  Sometimes Nature mutates genes to mankind’s benefit.

For example, people with a mutation of the CCR5 gene -- called "delta 32” are immune to HIV!  The implications of this for a vaccine or cure are obvious!  But if this screening technology were available 50 or 100 years ago, most couples would have screened out this mutated gene if they were told that “your baby has a mutated gene” and they would have done so without understanding future importance of this gene.  This is just one dramatic example.  My point is that genes that cause a predisposition to problems--even serious problems like cystic fibrosis, diabetes, cancer, etc.--may also cause benefits that we do not yet understand and cannot predict.

I’m much more in favor of laws and values that recognize the equality and dignity of human life in all its diversity than in flipping genetic switches to make a future child more “acceptable” to society.  But my view may be in the minority.  Someone like Ted Haggard, who obviously hates being gay (I still think he is gay despite his claims to 100% hetero conversion) would love a "gay vaccination."  I suspect Dick and Lynne Cheney would have chosen it as well had it been available.  ::)

Anyone interested in this topic of genetic screening and selection should watch the movie Gattaca.  http://imdb.com/title/tt0119177/  I used to show that film to my students.


24KT

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 12:45:28 AM »
Wow Bay, that was so well said!  Gattaca was a great movie btw.  :)
w

Purge_WTF

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 06:46:48 PM »
  I'm a Conservative and don't agree with or understand homosexuality, but this won't exactly help the cause.  People like him don't want stem-cell research to be carried out out of fear of somehow "tampering" with life, yet they propogate this nonsense. Pure hypocrisy.

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 06:55:41 PM »
  I'm a Conservative and don't agree with or understand homosexuality, but this won't exactly help the cause.  People like him don't want stem-cell research to be carried out out of fear of somehow "tampering" with life, yet they propogate this nonsense. Pure hypocrisy.

Not quite, Mr. President.

First of all, "people like him" are only against one particular type of stem-cell research: the embryonic kind. All the other types are just fine and dandy.

Secondly, Mohler sets the record straight, if you will, on Baptist Press (BP) News.

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25194


Purge_WTF

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 07:14:01 PM »
  Hey McWay: Thou Shalt Not Consume MuscleTech.  :D ;D

MCWAY

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 07:26:10 PM »
  Hey McWay: Thou Shalt Not Consume MuscleTech.  :D ;D

You forgot the rest of that verse:

Thou shalt not consume MuscleTech supplements...........lest thou gaineth 2400% more mass than thy brethren.


Purge_WTF

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 07:05:17 AM »
   LOL!  :P

gymforlord

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 01:51:59 PM »
  I'm a Conservative and don't agree with or understand homosexuality, but this won't exactly help the cause.  People like him don't want stem-cell research to be carried out out of fear of somehow "tampering" with life, yet they propogate this nonsense. Pure hypocrisy.
Purge, you are Da Man!
I am Conservative & actually have nothing against gays-it's your life & live it the way you want-it is,indeed, the Land of The Free-God Bless it. I take issue with a lot of the agenda, but that is another issue entirely.
Life is Life and is Sacred and should not be tampered with.

Butterbean

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2007, 09:06:25 PM »
No, for a variety of reasons.  Certainly, my life would have been easier had I been straight, but would I be the same person?  Would I have the same values?  Would I be as interested in social justice and equality for all. Probably not.  Like most well adjusted minorities, I’m too invested in who I am to give it all up simply to have an “easier” life.  I wouldn’t give up being African American either though being white would obviously have given me an easier path in life.  Would you choose to be male?  Or choose to have a male child?  The preference for male children is so extreme in India and China that female infants are often killed, abandoned or thrown away.

Beyond the personal there are natural and scientific concerns to the hypothetical you pose.  I addressed this somewhat in this thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133463.msg1889091#msg1889091

As I mentioned there, I believe that Nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  I don’t pretend to know what that reason is, but I believe it exists.

If at some future date we are able to screen embryos for a host of factors, we will likely reach a point when a fertility doctor will say to a couple, “we’ve screened your embryo and noticed that X, Y, & Z genes are mutated.  Would you like us to screen that out?”   Almost everyone would say “yes” to this question but they may do so without understanding that mutated or “defective” genes are not always bad.  Sometimes Nature mutates genes to mankind’s benefit.

For example, people with a mutation of the CCR5 gene -- called "delta 32” are immune to HIV!  The implications of this for a vaccine or cure are obvious!  But if this screening technology were available 50 or 100 years ago, most couples would have screened out this mutated gene if they were told that “your baby has a mutated gene” and they would have done so without understanding future importance of this gene.  This is just one dramatic example.  My point is that genes that cause a predisposition to problems--even serious problems like cystic fibrosis, diabetes, cancer, etc.--may also cause benefits that we do not yet understand and cannot predict.

I’m much more in favor of laws and values that recognized the equality and dignity of human life in all its diversity than in flipping genetic switches to make a future child more “acceptable” to society.  But my view may be in the minority.  Someone like Ted Haggard, who obviously hates being gay (I still think he is gay despite his claims to 100% hetero conversion) would love a "gay vaccination."  I suspect Dick and Lynne Cheney would have chosen it as well had it been available.  ::)

Anyone interested in this topic of genetic screening and selection should watch the movie Gattaca.  http://imdb.com/title/tt0119177/  I used to show that film to my students.


Bay, I appreciate this informative response.  Thank you.
R

Tre

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2007, 05:00:59 AM »

One of the best posts in GetBig history - nicely stated, Bay, and I agree with you.

No, for a variety of reasons.  Certainly, my life would have been easier had I been straight, but would I be the same person?  Would I have the same values?  Would I be as interested in social justice and equality for all. Probably not.  Like most well adjusted minorities, I’m too invested in who I am to give it all up simply to have an “easier” life.  I wouldn’t give up being African American either though being white would obviously have given me an easier path in life.  Would you choose to be male?  Or choose to have a male child?  The preference for male children is so extreme in India and China that female infants are often killed, abandoned or thrown away.

Beyond the personal there are natural and scientific concerns to the hypothetical you pose.  I addressed this somewhat in this thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133463.msg1889091#msg1889091

As I mentioned there, I believe that Nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  I don’t pretend to know what that reason is, but I believe it exists.

If at some future date we are able to screen embryos for a host of factors, we will likely reach a point when a fertility doctor will say to a couple, “we’ve screened your embryo and noticed that X, Y, & Z genes are mutated.  Would you like us to screen that out?”   Almost everyone would say “yes” to this question but they may do so without understanding that mutated or “defective” genes are not always bad.  Sometimes Nature mutates genes to mankind’s benefit.

For example, people with a mutation of the CCR5 gene -- called "delta 32” are immune to HIV!  The implications of this for a vaccine or cure are obvious!  But if this screening technology were available 50 or 100 years ago, most couples would have screened out this mutated gene if they were told that “your baby has a mutated gene” and they would have done so without understanding future importance of this gene.  This is just one dramatic example.  My point is that genes that cause a predisposition to problems--even serious problems like cystic fibrosis, diabetes, cancer, etc.--may also cause benefits that we do not yet understand and cannot predict.

I’m much more in favor of laws and values that recognized the equality and dignity of human life in all its diversity than in flipping genetic switches to make a future child more “acceptable” to society.  But my view may be in the minority.  Someone like Ted Haggard, who obviously hates being gay (I still think he is gay despite his claims to 100% hetero conversion) would love a "gay vaccination."  I suspect Dick and Lynne Cheney would have chosen it as well had it been available.  ::)

Anyone interested in this topic of genetic screening and selection should watch the movie Gattaca.  http://imdb.com/title/tt0119177/  I used to show that film to my students.



BayGBM

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 09:11:24 PM »
One of the best posts in GetBig history - nicely stated, Bay, and I agree with you.


Blush!  :-[   :)

BayGBM

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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2008, 09:43:13 AM »
How many couples would have a gay child on purpose?

Please don't try equating gays with blacks, chinese, etc... they are not a seperate race.


Here is an interesting follow up to my earlier thesis that Nature knows what it is doing.  Last night’s Nightline featured a story about dwarfs in Equador that are effectively immune to cancer!  You can read about it here http://abcnews.go.com/Health/OnCall/story?id=6282128&page=1

The same genetic mutation or “disorder” that causes them to be dwarfs also prevents them from developing cancer.  Researchers are now studying this population of dwarfs and trying to isolate the cancer suppressant factor in their genetic code.  It is still a long way off, but if their work is successful, the cure to cancer could very well come from this population of dwarfs!

Now, imagine if genetic screening were widely available (as seen in the film Gattaca)  and the parents of all these dwarfs had been told “your embryo has a mutated gene… and unless we take action your child will likely be a dwarf.  Would you like us to eliminate this ‘problem’?”  Most people would, of course, say “yes.”  My earlier point is worth repeating here: genes that cause a predisposition to problems--even serious problems like dwarfism--may also cause benefits that we do not yet understand and cannot predict.

We do not yet know the etiology of homosexuality, but many geneticists believe that there is a genetic component to it.  Now, imagine that early in your pregnancy, your doctor comes to you and says they have run a battery of tests on the embryo and they have determined that your child will likely be gay or lesbian, but they can fix this ‘problem’ by flipping a genetic switch.  Most people today would opt to flip the switch . . . but mankind might regret that later!

I have long said that Nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population and that homosexuality is part of the diversity of Nature’s portfolio.  We should embrace that diversity in all its forms.  The diversity we reject today could be the very thing that saves us tomorrow.


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Re: Furor Over Baptist's Gay-Baby Article
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2008, 11:56:16 AM »
No, for a variety of reasons.  Certainly, my life would have been easier had I been straight, but would I be the same person?  Would I have the same values?  Would I be as interested in social justice and equality for all. Probably not.  Like most well adjusted minorities, I’m too invested in who I am to give it all up simply to have an “easier” life.  I wouldn’t give up being African American either though being white would obviously have given me an easier path in life.  Would you choose to be male?  Or choose to have a male child?  The preference for male children is so extreme in India and China that female infants are often killed, abandoned or thrown away.

Beyond the personal there are natural and scientific concerns to the hypothetical you pose.  I addressed this somewhat in this thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133463.msg1889091#msg1889091

As I mentioned there, I believe that Nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  I don’t pretend to know what that reason is, but I believe it exists.

If at some future date we are able to screen embryos for a host of factors, we will likely reach a point when a fertility doctor will say to a couple, “we’ve screened your embryo and noticed that X, Y, & Z genes are mutated.  Would you like us to screen that out?”   Almost everyone would say “yes” to this question but they may do so without understanding that mutated or “defective” genes are not always bad.  Sometimes Nature mutates genes to mankind’s benefit.

For example, people with a mutation of the CCR5 gene -- called "delta 32” are immune to HIV!  The implications of this for a vaccine or cure are obvious!  But if this screening technology were available 50 or 100 years ago, most couples would have screened out this mutated gene if they were told that “your baby has a mutated gene” and they would have done so without understanding future importance of this gene.  This is just one dramatic example.  My point is that genes that cause a predisposition to problems--even serious problems like cystic fibrosis, diabetes, cancer, etc.--may also cause benefits that we do not yet understand and cannot predict.

I’m much more in favor of laws and values that recognize the equality and dignity of human life in all its diversity than in flipping genetic switches to make a future child more “acceptable” to society.  But my view may be in the minority.  Someone like Ted Haggard, who obviously hates being gay (I still think he is gay despite his claims to 100% hetero conversion) would love a "gay vaccination."  I suspect Dick and Lynne Cheney would have chosen it as well had it been available.  ::)

Anyone interested in this topic of genetic screening and selection should watch the movie Gattaca.  http://imdb.com/title/tt0119177/  I used to show that film to my students.



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