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Author Topic: The Truth About Raw Foods For Our Dogs and Cats  (Read 12660 times)
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« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2007, 09:20:32 AM »

How much did all that cost?

  $178.50 total.   The beef is an every other month pickup so I stocked up since I can't get it again until the 2nd Saturday in Sept.  It was a flat .70/# for beef chunks, tripe, heart and liver (everything is in 5# rolls) which is waaaaaaaaaay cheaper than I can get it at the store or the butchers.   I still had some pork and chicken in the freezer but my butcher is going on vacation the next 2 weeks so I went a got an order there too.  So we are really really stocked now!
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« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2007, 09:41:39 AM »

STella, did you get my "donation" email?  I forgot to collect before I went and picked this all up!  lollz    Grin
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« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2007, 10:16:37 AM »

STella, did you get my "donation" email?  I forgot to collect before I went and picked this all up!  lollz    Grin

Yes but did you get mine?  To make things easy you owe me 357.00 - 178.50 = 178.50

 Grin
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« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2007, 01:58:27 PM »

Yes but did you get mine?  To make things easy you owe me 357.00 - 178.50 = 178.50

 Grin

  Damn!!!!    I've been STell0wnd!!   Grin
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« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2007, 04:50:06 PM »

Here's the freezer!!  The tubs on the door are Tino's chicken I make him.

  I love a full freezer!!!   
     Cheesy


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« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2007, 05:14:25 PM »

A great site with more than just raw feeding articles, please take a look and browse through some of the links:

  http://mypetcarnivore.com/


  I realize I may be one of the few people here that find this interesting, but I do hope some of you check these links out.  there are health related articles too.

        Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2007, 10:39:48 AM »


Food Source, rabbits, goat, tripe,more..... dehydrated items, whole and ground:

   http://www.hare-today.com/


"We euthanize all our rabbits with C02. CO2 is an approved method of euthanizing small animals approved by the American Veterinary association. The rabbits are placed in a large Rubbermaid tub with fresh hay on the bottom. The lid is closed and the co2 gas is turned on slowly. The rabbits will fall asleep. They just don't wake back up. I believe this is the most human method and this is important to me. Also C02 does not leave any residual build up in the blood stream so it does not affect the nutritional quality of the meat."
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« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2007, 11:44:11 AM »

Links:

  http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdiet.htm

  http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

  http://rawfed.com/myths/

  http://www.raingoddess.com/vetmed/rawfood.html

   http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html
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« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2007, 05:43:19 AM »

I just did some calculations to see if it costs me more, about the same, or less, to feed raw.

 I was told kibble* weighs about 4.5oz for a cup.  I would go through approximately 17 cups of kibble a day to feed my 4.   A 35# bag is 560oz.  And a 35#bag is approximately $30.

  560oz / 4.5oz = 124cups per 45#bag

  124 / 17 = 7.29 days per 35# bag   (7 days)

  $30 / 7 = $4.29/day



  My last raw purchases was for  275# @ $178.50 total.   I feed about 7.5# a day in raw food. 

   275# / 7.5# = 36 days

  $178.50 / 36 = $4.96/day


 So using those numbers it costs about the same.  BUT.... The beef items I purchased for that total cost $0.70/# and there was more purchased than for a month.  Chicken costs me $0.20-0.30 cents less a pound than the beef items.  So over the course of a month it could actually cost me LESS to feed a raw diet than kibble.


 This does not include the health & teeth benefits this diet may be bring in the form of less vet bills and chronic disease that would need to be treated, and the overall enjoyment consuming real food brings to my dogs, which is priceless.   Smiley
 




 *the kibble used for this comparison was Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul, the kibble that I recommend to kibble feeders
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« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2007, 03:44:40 PM »

Very interesting info.  Thanks Flower.
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« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2007, 08:50:48 PM »

I have been giving Scout raw marrow beef bones.  He loves them and only seems to want one about once a week.  If I give him one any more often, he immediately finds a place to bury it.  He then goes back to get it a few days later.  I've also been adding a small amount of beef BARF to his kibble.  I have a bag of BARF tripe in the freezer too.  Is all this okay or am I doing him a disservice by not committing to one or the other  Huh (Raw vs kibble)   I want to make sure I've done all my due diligence if and when I decide to go 100% raw.  I'm not there yet.


So... now that I have some of this stuff

what do I do with it?  Is it just for an ocassional treat or a meal?  How much at a time?

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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2007, 05:38:04 AM »

Flower has helped me switch Oscar over to raw for about the past 2 weeks. I still mix about a quarter cup of kibble in with his raw beef and bones(I havent got the nerve to thaw the tripe yet). So far so good- he no longer leaves half a cup of food for latter and the day and he comes and tells me when hes hungry!


Flower - his poop is picture perfect!  Cheesy
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« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2007, 03:32:53 PM »

I have been giving Scout raw marrow beef bones.  He loves them and only seems to want one about once a week.  If I give him one any more often, he immediately finds a place to bury it.  He then goes back to get it a few days later.  I've also been adding a small amount of beef BARF to his kibble.  I have a bag of BARF tripe in the freezer too.  Is all this okay or am I doing him a disservice by not committing to one or the other  Huh (Raw vs kibble)   I want to make sure I've done all my due diligence if and when I decide to go 100% raw.  I'm not there yet.


So... now that I have some of this stuff

what do I do with it?  Is it just for an ocassional treat or a meal?  How much at a time?




 Tripe is fed as a meal. You can mix it with the beef if you want or by itself.  He should LOVE it.   Cheesy

  Some people do feed raw and kibble with no apparent problems to the dog.  They usually do them separate, one meal kibble, one meal raw, because kibble and raw digest at different rates and may cause tummy problems.  That is how I would suggest feeding them if you continue to feed both, but if he is having no problems with them mixed, then you can continue to do it that way too.

  As far as doing him a disservice by feeding both..... By feeding the kibble you are still giving him grains, so he cannot get the full benefit of a raw, grain free diet.  Nor will you get the smaller poop benefit.   Lips sealed   If you don't want to go 100% raw for whatever reason, I would say to keep feeding him some raw if you can because then he is getting unprocessed real food  that way.  By feeding only preground raw he is missing out on the teeth cleaning benefits of having whole bones to crunch and chew.  While the marrow bones do help, because they are really eaten and crunched/chewed they don't compare to feeding raw meaty bones (RMB's). 
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« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2007, 03:34:09 PM »

Flower has helped me switch Oscar over to raw for about the past 2 weeks. I still mix about a quarter cup of kibble in with his raw beef and bones(I havent got the nerve to thaw the tripe yet). So far so good- he no longer leaves half a cup of food for latter and the day and he comes and tells me when hes hungry!


Flower - his poop is picture perfect!  Cheesy

Glad to hear this!!   I'm telling you, that tripe you have is less stinky than the kind I am currently feeding.   Lips sealed
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« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2007, 08:33:25 AM »

 Cool


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« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2007, 07:10:08 AM »

The FDA is working for the kibble manufacture agenda, this it TOTAL bullshit!


Quote:
Almost a week after Bravo! a raw pet food diet producer, announces a
product recall, Melinda Miller, one of the principals of Bravo and a
co-founder of the North American Raw Petfood Association (NARPA)
writes a memo and sends the following email:

*******
A Message From Bravo:

*ALL* raw meat carries pathogens. Whether you buy from the grocery
store, from wholesale meat suppliers, or from prepared raw diet
manufacturers.

It is impossible to avoid. The USDA allows poultry producers to have
up to 23% Salmonella contamination on poultry. A good portion of
chickens are actually *born* with Salmonella. So the poultry products
that manufacturers must use are contaminated long before it ever gets
to us. Since these are *RAW* diets and we don't cook them, the
bacteria is left intact. This is true for *every* raw diet
manufacturer and for every person who feeds raw regardless of their
source. Raw meat has bacteria - that's why people are told to wash
their hands after handling raw meat. ANYONE who has fed raw has fed
pathogens such as Salmonella and Listeria.

Do Salmonella and Listeria pose a threat to our dogs and cats? Not
really. If you go to our website you'll find a recall FAQ that gives
citations about how Salmonella is a normal part of the intestinal
flora and how dogs apparently neutralize the bacteria. There's even a
quote from the FDA Consumer magazine that acknowledges that healthy
dogs and cats rarely become ill from Salmonella.

So why is the FDA involved and why did we do the recall? You can find
more information on that on our website also. But briefly you should
know some of this:

The FDA agents told us that we are just the first of the raw diet
companies to be visited, and that they hope to be able to shut down
the raw diet industry and stop raw feeding. So this is an industry
problem, not a Bravo problem.

The FDA has a very black eye due to the melamine recalls. So, they
want an easy win so they can prove they are safeguarding America's
pets. Raw diets are an easy target for them.

The FDA is holding raw diets to a *cooked* diet standard and has no
desire to be reasonable and acknowledge that you can't hold *RAW* meat
to the same regulation that governs *cooked* meat.

The FDA and USDA are currently in a bitter battle. The FDA is trying
to take control of USDA operations. We believe one of the reasons
Bravo was chosen was that we are a USDA facility. By bashing Bravo
they are able to bash the USDA.

This recall is the result of politics and unreasonable bureaucrats.
Bravo raw products carry the same risk - and BENEFITS - as any raw
product - whether home-prepared or manufactured.

We have been a company dedicated to high quality. That's why we use
antibiotic-free poultry, and grass-fed, hormone-free red meats. It's
why we manufacture in our own USDA plant under USDA human processing
standards. Other than the reality that all raw meat has some pathogen
presence, nothing has changed. You can still count on us to make a
high quality and beneficial products.

To those who have been sending notes of support, thank you very much.
We're caught in the midst of a political struggle and it helps to know
there are people who understand and appreciate the passion
and care we put into Bravo products.
FMI: www.bravorawdiet.com

Melinda

Melinda Miller
Bravo Raw Diet

Unquote

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/recallinfo.html
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« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2007, 07:13:14 AM »

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/recallinfo.html

Have any pets or humans become ill from Bravo! Raw Diet?
No.  None that we know of

Why is Bravo! recalling their products?
There are existing FDA regulations which do not allow Salmonella presence in cooked pet foods – i.e., canned foods and kibble. While raw diet manufacturers do not make cooked foods, we fall under the same FDA standards as those who do. Despite the difference in products – cooked vs. raw – Bravo! wants to fully cooperate with the FDA and is voluntarily complying with their regulations.

How did your Bravo! products become contaminated?
Raw meat, especially poultry, harbors pathogens (bacteria). That is why it is essential for you to wash your hands after handling raw meat and to clean surfaces and utensils that have been in contact with raw meat. Approximately 15 percent to 23 percent of all poultry is estimated to be contaminated with Salmonella by the time it reaches the age of slaughter.1 Therefore, contamination takes place long before the poultry parts ever make it to raw diet manufacturers for processing. The USDA recognizes Salmonella as a fact of life and has even set “tolerance levels” for Salmonella – so poultry producers are allowed to have a certain amount of Salmonella present in their birds. The reality for raw feeders is that low levels of pathogens are present in most raw meats, most of the time, whether they feed raw meat from the supermarket or whether they buy prepared raw diets from manufacturers. If you have been feeding raw food to your pet for more than a day or two, your pet has consumed pathogens such as Salmonella.

Does this mean my pet is going to get Salmonella poisoning?
There is no definitive answer for this; however, we want you to consider the following:

Most dogs and cats can eat high quality raw meat without a problem, even if the same raw meat would make humans very sick. They are resistant - NOT immune - from the disease potential of these pathogens, and healthy dogs often harbor them without symptoms. Think about your dog - this is an animal that can lick itself, lick other dogs, eat a variety of disgusting rotting things, and ingest its own feces or those of other animals with no ill effects. Dogs, and cats as well, simply can handle greater bacterial loads than humans can because their physiology is different.

Here’s what the Merck Veterinary Manual says about Salmonella in pets:
“Many dogs and cats are asymptomatic carriers of Salmonellae. Clinical disease is uncommon, but when it is seen, it is often associated with hospitalization, another infection or debilitating condition in adults, or exposure to large numbers of the bacteria in puppies and kittens.” 2

To translate: Many dogs and cats carry Salmonella in their systems (as evidenced by the presence of Salmonella in their feces), but they rarely become ill. It is just a natural part of what lives in their GI systems. When illness does occur it is usually associated with an already ill animal who is already immune-compromised. Illness may also occur when young animals are exposed to very high numbers of the bacteria. This might happen if a puppy finds and licks the inside of an outdoor garbage can that has never been washed and is teeming with bacteria.

Research indicates that approximately 36 percent of healthy dogs and 17 percent of healthy cats carry Salmonella in their digestive tract.3  The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) agrees with these numbers.4  It is interesting to note that these numbers are based on kibble-fed dogs – which means that Salmonella is a natural part of life for our pets regardless of what they are eating.

The resistance to illness in dogs from Salmonella is apparent in a study of raw-fed dogs in Canada. In that study 16 dogs were deliberately fed commercial raw diets contaminated with Salmonella. None of those 16 dogs became ill. Additionally, only 7 of those 16 dogs shed Salmonella in their feces.5  While it was not further studied, one might speculate that the 9 dogs who ate Salmonella-contaminated food but did not shed it in their feces effectively neutralized the bacteria.

Even the FDA, in the FDA Consumer magazine, acknowledges that healthy pets rarely become ill from Salmonella contamination.6
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« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2007, 07:16:30 AM »

What does all of this mean to me and my pet?
All types of pet food carry some risk. That is also true for raw diets. These risks can be reduced by feeding the highest quality products you can buy and by following all the recommendations about temperature, storage and hygiene. Only you can decide if the risks outweigh the benefits. Most people feeding raw diets were not completely happy with the health of their pets when they were being fed kibble. If they were, the entire raw diet movement would have never taken root. There’s nothing more convenient than pouring kibble into a dish. So, some people must be seeing benefits from feeding raw.

What is Bravo! doing to reduce the risk of bacterial contamination?

Bravo! products are manufactured in a USDA-inspected human meat processing facility which we own. Our full line of products are made with only high-quality, USDA-inspected and approved meats and poultry. All processing is done by our own local employees to insure high-quality production, and all of our Bravo! production adheres to the same USDA standards required for processing human meat products.

Our meat processing rooms are kept between 35 to 40 degrees during production. Processed products are then immediately placed in a blast freezer where they are subjected to a temperature of -20 degrees for a minimum of 24 hours. The blast-frozen products are then transferred to our commercial freezers where temperatures between 0 and 10 degrees are constantly monitored and maintained.

Bravo! follows all of the FDA guidelines for manufacturing raw diets (except irradiation). You can find those guidelines at: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/Guidance/Guide122.doc

Additionally, Melinda Miller, one of Bravo!’s principals, is one of the founders of the North American Raw Petfood Association (NARPA) and is currently its President. NARPA has been investigating manufacturing options to further reduce pathogen presence in raw diet products and will hopefully be establishing industry standards as viable processing procedures are found. Bravo! will be introducing some of these production steps into its manufacturing process.

How will I know if my pet has Salmonella sickness?

As noted above, it is highly unlikely your pet will contract Salmonella. However, as with humans, younger, older or sickly pets would most likely be affected. The symptoms of Salmonella sickness in pets is also similar to those in humans and includes: vomiting, diarrhea, poor appetite, dehydration, sluggishness, weakness and high fever. If your pet exhibits any of these symptoms, please contact your veterinarian.

How can I avoid Salmonella infection?
In short, hygiene, hygiene, hygiene. When dealing with any raw protein, such as meat, poultry or fish, or when handling pet foods and/or coming into contact with pets or surfaces exposed to these foods it is essential to thoroughly wash your hands with hot water and soap. It is also advised you wash counters, utensils, storage containers and pet food bowls that are exposed to raw meats. You should also avoid contact with your pet’s stool as Salmonella and other pathogens may be present in the stool. If you do have contact with pet feces, always remember to thoroughly wash your hands afterwards. You should also avoid letting your pets lick you immediately after they’ve eaten.

There has been a lot of talk about Salmonella contamination, but what about the Listeria contamination?
Listeria is not seen in cats and is extremely uncommon in dogs. When it is seen in dogs the symptoms are typically diarrhea, fever, neurological signs and vomiting. The symptoms are the same in people. Listeria infection in pregnant women has been associated with miscarriages and stillbirths. Again, when handling raw meat products, practice good hygiene. For information on Listeria: www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/listeriosis_g.htm 

What should I feed my pet in place of the recalled product?
You should continue with your pet’s raw diet. Only the specific products from the specific batch ID codes are affected by the recall. Other Bravo! products, which have other batch ID codes, are not part of the recall.

How can I tell if the product I have in my freezer is part of the recall?
Please check the product batch ID code located on the plastic hang tag attached to the bottom of each tube. Only the specific products from the specific batch ID codes are affected by the recall. Other Bravo! products, which have other batch ID codes, are not part of the rec

What should I do if I have recalled product in my home?
If unopened, you may return it to the store where purchased for a full refund.

If opened, you may dispose of the contents in a safe manner (example, a securely covered trash receptacle) and return the washed plastic batch ID tag to the store where purchased for a full refund.

Footnotes
1. www.consumerreports.org/cro/food/food-safety/chicken-safety/chicken-safety-1-07/overview/0107_chick_ov.htm 

2. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfle=htm/bc/20900.htm

3. Hand, M.S., Thatcher, C.D., Remillard, R.L., and Roudebush, P. (2000) Small Animal Clinical Nutrition. Mark Morris Institute. Pg. 36-42,188.

4. http://www.avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znsalmonellosis.asp

5. Finley, R., et al. (2007) The Risk of Salmonellae Shedding by Dogs Fed Salmonella-contaminated Commercial Raw Food Diets. Can Vet J. Vol 48 #1. Pg. 69-75.

6. http://www.fda.gov/FDAC/departs/2000/500_upd.html#pigs
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« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2007, 12:04:19 PM »

The FDA is working for the kibble manufacture agenda, this it TOTAL bullshit!


Quote:
Almost a week after Bravo! a raw pet food diet producer, announces a
product recall, Melinda Miller, one of the principals of Bravo and a
co-founder of the North American Raw Petfood Association (NARPA)
writes a memo and sends the following email:

*******
A Message From Bravo:

*ALL* raw meat carries pathogens. Whether you buy from the grocery
store, from wholesale meat suppliers, or from prepared raw diet
manufacturers.

It is impossible to avoid. The USDA allows poultry producers to have
up to 23% Salmonella contamination on poultry. A good portion of
chickens are actually *born* with Salmonella. So the poultry products
that manufacturers must use are contaminated long before it ever gets
to us. Since these are *RAW* diets and we don't cook them, the
bacteria is left intact. This is true for *every* raw diet
manufacturer and for every person who feeds raw regardless of their
source. Raw meat has bacteria - that's why people are told to wash
their hands after handling raw meat. ANYONE who has fed raw has fed
pathogens such as Salmonella and Listeria.

Do Salmonella and Listeria pose a threat to our dogs and cats? Not
really. If you go to our website you'll find a recall FAQ that gives
citations about how Salmonella is a normal part of the intestinal
flora and how dogs apparently neutralize the bacteria. There's even a
quote from the FDA Consumer magazine that acknowledges that healthy
dogs and cats rarely become ill from Salmonella.

So why is the FDA involved and why did we do the recall? You can find
more information on that on our website also. But briefly you should
know some of this:

The FDA agents told us that we are just the first of the raw diet
companies to be visited, and that they hope to be able to shut down
the raw diet industry and stop raw feeding. So this is an industry
problem, not a Bravo problem.

The FDA has a very black eye due to the melamine recalls. So, they
want an easy win so they can prove they are safeguarding America's
pets. Raw diets are an easy target for them.

The FDA is holding raw diets to a *cooked* diet standard and has no
desire to be reasonable and acknowledge that you can't hold *RAW* meat
to the same regulation that governs *cooked* meat.

The FDA and USDA are currently in a bitter battle. The FDA is trying
to take control of USDA operations. We believe one of the reasons
Bravo was chosen was that we are a USDA facility. By bashing Bravo
they are able to bash the USDA.

This recall is the result of politics and unreasonable bureaucrats.
Bravo raw products carry the same risk - and BENEFITS - as any raw
product - whether home-prepared or manufactured.

We have been a company dedicated to high quality. That's why we use
antibiotic-free poultry, and grass-fed, hormone-free red meats. It's
why we manufacture in our own USDA plant under USDA human processing
standards. Other than the reality that all raw meat has some pathogen
presence, nothing has changed. You can still count on us to make a
high quality and beneficial products.

To those who have been sending notes of support, thank you very much.
We're caught in the midst of a political struggle and it helps to know
there are people who understand and appreciate the passion
and care we put into Bravo products.
FMI: www.bravorawdiet.com

Melinda

Melinda Miller
Bravo Raw Diet

Unquote

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/recallinfo.html

Flower, the statistics cited for bacteria contamination are correct.  Thats why humans are advised to thoroughly cook their foods.   I've treated cases of salmonella in dogs---its not pretty and I've seen dogs die from it.   That said, I've never seen or heard of acase of listeria in a dog. 


Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument with you, I just want to put in my two cents about the FDA.  After the entire proheart 6 scandal and the actions they've had with a couple of other drugs, I've pretty much lost faith in that organizations ability to "protect" us.  They are politically and financially motivated in my opinion and as a result should be closely watched by the average consumer.  I work closely with the USDA and have for several years with exotic species.  I have faith in that organization because of those interactions.  I don't with the FDA. 
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« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2007, 12:24:07 PM »

The FDA should keep it's nose out of this, it is the USDA's business.  It is a move to get rid of raw food sellers especially after the kibble fiasco and people losing some faith in that industry.

"Research indicates that approximately 36 percent of healthy dogs and 17 percent of healthy cats carry Salmonella in their digestive tract.3  The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) agrees with these numbers.4  It is interesting to note that these numbers are based on kibble-fed dogs – which means that Salmonella is a natural part of life for our pets regardless of what they are eating."

Raw food or not, a good number of dogs have salmonella in their digestive tracts.

I personally have never heard of a raw fed dog dieing from salmonella, but I have heard of a number of kibble fed dogs that did or got really sick.  Maybe when you feed crap the body is less able to deal with things it normally could? The digestive system is forced to deal with food that it was not meant too.  Roll Eyes  In addition to that I would hazard to guess that the same people that raw feed are also conservative when it comes to vaccines and topical or oral poisons  used on their pets. Something else that may allow a dog or cat to deal with what is natural to them.
   
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« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2007, 01:20:45 PM »

The FDA should keep it's nose out of this, it is the USDA's business.  It is a move to get rid of raw food sellers especially after the kibble fiasco and people losing some faith in that industry.

"Research indicates that approximately 36 percent of healthy dogs and 17 percent of healthy cats carry Salmonella in their digestive tract.3  The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) agrees with these numbers.4  It is interesting to note that these numbers are based on kibble-fed dogs – which means that Salmonella is a natural part of life for our pets regardless of what they are eating."

Raw food or not, a good number of dogs have salmonella in their digestive tracts.

I personally have never heard of a raw fed dog dieing from salmonella, but I have heard of a number of kibble fed dogs that did or got really sick.  Maybe when you feed crap the body is less able to deal with things it normally could? The digestive system is forced to deal with food that it was not meant too.  Roll Eyes  In addition to that I would hazard to guess that the same people that raw feed are also conservative when it comes to vaccines and topical or oral poisons  used on their pets. Something else that may allow a dog or cat to deal with what is natural to them.
   


The question I ask with those statistics are where did the salmonella come from in the first place?  Salmonella is not a naturally occuring bacteria in most omnivores or carnivore digestive tracts.  I'd be interested in seeing a study that investigates incidence of salmonella from human food (either raw scraps, bones, or raiding garbage) consumption.   
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« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2007, 01:34:55 PM »


The question I ask with those statistics are where did the salmonella come from in the first place?  Salmonella is not a naturally occuring bacteria in most omnivores or carnivore digestive tracts.  I'd be interested in seeing a study that investigates incidence of salmonella from human food (either raw scraps, bones, or raiding garbage) consumption.   


from the link provided of the AVMA:
http://www.avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znsalmonellosis.asp

Nontyphoidal salmonellosis is one of the leading causes of acute bacterial gastroenteritis in the United States, responsible for an estimated 1.4 million cases of illness annually.1 Many animals, both domestic and wild, are colonized by Salmonella spp, usually harboring the bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts with no apparent signs of illness. Hence, salmonellae are often present in feces excreted by healthy animals and frequently contaminate raw foods of animal origin through fecal contact during production and slaughter.

  that makes it sound like it is very common  Undecided
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« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2007, 01:50:48 PM »


from the link provided of the AVMA:
http://www.avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znsalmonellosis.asp

Nontyphoidal salmonellosis is one of the leading causes of acute bacterial gastroenteritis in the United States, responsible for an estimated 1.4 million cases of illness annually.1 Many animals, both domestic and wild, are colonized by Salmonella spp, usually harboring the bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts with no apparent signs of illness. Hence, salmonellae are often present in feces excreted by healthy animals and frequently contaminate raw foods of animal origin through fecal contact during production and slaughter.

  that makes it sound like it is very common  Undecided

It is very, very common--that study is over 5 years old.  Thats why the guidelines are to completely cook your food---that will kill salmonella and e-coli.  I am of the firm opinion that meat and meat products purchased from a grocery store or a even a local butchershop are much more likely to be contaminated with potentially disease causing bacteria than meat that is home butchered.   The thing is most people don't have a way to do that.  So they are lulled into a sense of feeling "safe" by purchasing bullshit like "organic" or "range fed" or some other marketing shit. 

The study I'm not aware of is incidence of those food borne diseases that are contracted by domestic animals via ingestion of human food or waste food.   I don't know of any study like that that has been done. 
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« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2007, 02:01:10 PM »

But if it is very common to be in the digestion, then why be worried about them consuming it on food unless they are unhealthy or compromised?

  To me the salmonella angle as a deterrent to feeding raw food is misrepresented and the risk inflated.   Now if they want to say that a PERSON has a higher chance of getting salmonella if they feed raw, I would agree with that, BUT if a person can handle meat for their family, they should be able to with their pets.  And kibble fed dogs test positive for salmonella in their stools just like raw fed dogs can, again, if you aren't touching kibble poop and putting your hands in your mouth, then why would people with raw feeding? 
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« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2007, 02:10:30 PM »

But if it is very common to be in the digestion, then why be worried about them consuming it on food unless they are unhealthy or compromised?

  To me the salmonella angle as a deterrent to feeding raw food is misrepresented and the risk inflated.   Now if they want to say that a PERSON has a higher chance of getting salmonella if they feed raw, I would agree with that, BUT if a person can handle meat for their family, they should be able to with their pets.  And kibble fed dogs test positive for salmonella in their stools just like raw fed dogs can, again, if you aren't touching kibble poop and putting your hands in your mouth, then why would people with raw feeding? 
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You get salmonella by eating the food that is contaminated, not by handling it.  Handling raw meat is less risky than eating it.  And how many humans do you know eat absolutely raw meat?  Even a rare steak has been exposed to heat on the surface sufficient to kill surface contamination (that surface contamination is why ground meats are so dangerous). 


Again, the fact that kibble fed dogs test positive doesn't answer my question about a study to determine where the contamination comes from---think about it.  Dogs eat grass, some eat shit, they eat road kill, dogs raid the garbage, dogs will eat raw food intentionally fed to them by their human owners.  Even a 'kibble fed" dog doesn't eat just kibble.   Thats why I'd like to see the study I've been talking about.   The thing is it would be a long one---because I'm willing to bet you would have to start culturing feces at the time of birth and it has to take into consideration different species of salmonella and living conditions of the dog. 
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