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Author Topic: The Truth About Raw Foods For Our Dogs and Cats  (Read 13669 times)
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« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2007, 03:14:35 PM »

If most dogs (and other animals) go through life with salmonella in their digestive tract but no problems, does it really matter where it came from?  What is trying to be proved?   Huh   What would be the point of the study?   What if the study showed a dog remains salmonella free until someone feeds him some raw meat, or he sticks his head in a garbage can?  Most dogs unless compromised have no problem (because that is how nature made them  Grin ), so what would we learn from that study that would apply to anything?
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« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2007, 07:10:53 AM »

My doctor found 4lbs of low grade beef and a womans partially digested femur bone in my gut once  Smiley
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« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2007, 10:30:29 PM »

If most dogs (and other animals) go through life with salmonella in their digestive tract but no problems, does it really matter where it came from?  What is trying to be proved?   Huh   What would be the point of the study?   What if the study showed a dog remains salmonella free until someone feeds him some raw meat, or he sticks his head in a garbage can?  Most dogs unless compromised have no problem (because that is how nature made them  Grin ), so what would we learn from that study that would apply to anything?

Well, first off salmonella is not considered "normal" flora of the GI tract of any mammal even though studies have shown percentages suggesting a fair number of dogs may harbor this bacteria.  That means an animal that is actively shedding salmonella is in a state of constant flux as a result fo that bacterial infection.   You need to remember that withbacteria capable of developing a chronic shedding state, one of three things happens when an animals immune system encounters them.  First (and ideally) the immune system/animals defenses against infection killes the invading bacteria.  2) the invading bacteria overwhelms the immune system/animals defenses and the animal dies or 3) the salmonella bacteria persist in teh animal despite an appropriate immune response.  These are bad because that bacteria will then take advantage of a good situation when the immune system is compromised, rapidly growing and causing severe disease.   You often speak of "building up" dogs by feeding them a raw diet, but if you think about it, if you are repeatedly innoculating them with salmonella, you are doing the exact opposite.  Not only that, but when you consider normal intestinal flora, salmonella compromises a very, very small number even in severely ill animals.  Despite this low number it is capable of causing severe GI disease, including persistant ulcerative colitis.  This won't kill the dog until their colon perforates, but they will chronically loose blood into their feces from the bleeding intestinal lining. 

So what are you going to learn from that study that I suggested?  Well, definitive proof salmonellosis comes from feeding a raw diet is kind of a no brainer.  Its asanine to recommend feeding a diet that is proven to potentially result in a deadly bacterial infection or a chronic carrier state shedding that bacterium. Its also borderline asanine to feed a diet that may contribute to dogs developing a chronic carrier state, where they are chronically shedding bacteria in their feces, thus potentially jeopardizing the health of anyone who comes in contact with that feces.  Be honest, we all know kids who've handled dog shit in earnest and we all know dogs who've unloaded diarrhea in our living room.  Now think of that pile of dogshit containing a bacteria that potentially will cause severe disease.  Resolve is not a disinfectant and will do virtually nothing to kill bacteria.  Remember that.   Wink
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« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2007, 05:01:23 AM »

Don't twist my words- I never said "building them up" by feeding them a raw diet. I said by feeding a raw diet you allow their digestive system to work the way it is supposed to, which also includes being able to deal with salmonella, I never said keep giving them salmonella so they will get used to it.   Roll Eyes
 What I think is asinine is to feed a diet a digestive system is NOT designed to process, that the animal doesn't get the bioavailable nutrients from, and that causes stress on the animals body because of that. 

 As for the feces comment and handling, and of course a dog crapping in the house, well if that is your reasoning then reptiles and turtles should NOT be allowed as pets because aren't they always contaminated with salmonella which a person comes in contact with by touching the animal?   Most people would wash their hands after picking up dog shit, or a mess the animal made in the house, but how often do you think it is that someone is handling a reptile or turtle (and snakes, not sure about them) and puts a hand in their mouth or eats something, or just doesn't wash afterwards? 

 I think it is pretty asinine to feed an inappropriate diet which can cause CHRONIC HEALTH PROBLEMS for the animal because of a small chance of something that might happen, a very small chance.  Your whole argument is full of overblown scare tactics.   I have heard you mention about man meddling with nature/animals and fucking them up for our (mans) own purpose, yet you have no problem using scare tactics and over blowing/skewing truths to do the same?   Undecided

I have never heard of a dog getting sick from salmonella on a raw diet, I have heard of dogs getting sick from salmonella from KIBBLE.  Could it be that the inappropriate diet of kibble messes with the natural workings of the digestive system so when it comes in contact with an abundance of salmonella it can't handle it? 

  Your arguments sound good, they have the affect that people that use them are going for, fear, but when you actually look at the facts, that fear tactic is pretty lame and weak. 
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« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2007, 06:46:44 AM »

I wonder if in kibble fed dogs the level of hydrochloric acid is less so when they get kibble contaminated with salmonella their natural defense has been weakened from eating the inappropriate food, combined with the stress it takes on their system already digesting the inappropriate food, added to a digestive system that is designed for raw food and would usually have a short transit time, the transit time is lengthened because their bodies are trying to digest the inappropriate food so the salmonella gets to sit there for much much longer and has that much more of a chance to make them sick.

      Cheesy  yeah for long run on sentences!! 


  Maybe man should stop trying to "fix" what is not broken which in turn causes more problems (that man then tries to fix, and so on...)

 If 36% of dogs at any time are actively shedding salmonella (and that number was obtained from KIBBLE fed dogs) I would think we would be hearing about a lot of cases of people getting it from dogs because that is a pretty high number.  The salmonella argument is used by anti-raw people because it can put fear in people.  But when you break it down and look at salmonella and raw feeding animals factually, it's laughable.   Cheesy


 on the other hand, look at what the CDC has to say about salmonella:


Diseases from Reptiles

An estimated 3% of households in the United States own at least one reptile. Reptiles, including turtles, lizards, and snakes, can carry germs that make people sick. Of greatest importance is salmonellosis. An estimated 70,000 people get salmonellosis from contact with reptiles in the United States each year.

    Shocked
 
 Now Vet, you said that you said reptile restriction laws were stupid, but it seems to me that they are a public health hazard and asinine to allow just anyone to have them as a pet.   Cool
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« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2007, 01:35:29 PM »

Don't twist my words- I never said "building them up" by feeding them a raw diet. I said by feeding a raw diet you allow their digestive system to work the way it is supposed to, which also includes being able to deal with salmonella, I never said keep giving them salmonella so they will get used to it.   Roll Eyes
 What I think is asinine is to feed a diet a digestive system is NOT designed to process, that the animal doesn't get the bioavailable nutrients from, and that causes stress on the animals body because of that. 

 As for the feces comment and handling, and of course a dog crapping in the house, well if that is your reasoning then reptiles and turtles should NOT be allowed as pets because aren't they always contaminated with salmonella which a person comes in contact with by touching the animal?   Most people would wash their hands after picking up dog shit, or a mess the animal made in the house, but how often do you think it is that someone is handling a reptile or turtle (and snakes, not sure about them) and puts a hand in their mouth or eats something, or just doesn't wash afterwards? 

 I think it is pretty asinine to feed an inappropriate diet which can cause CHRONIC HEALTH PROBLEMS for the animal because of a small chance of something that might happen, a very small chance.  Your whole argument is full of overblown scare tactics.   I have heard you mention about man meddling with nature/animals and fucking them up for our (mans) own purpose, yet you have no problem using scare tactics and over blowing/skewing truths to do the same?   Undecided

I have never heard of a dog getting sick from salmonella on a raw diet, I have heard of dogs getting sick from salmonella from KIBBLE.  Could it be that the inappropriate diet of kibble messes with the natural workings of the digestive system so when it comes in contact with an abundance of salmonella it can't handle it? 

  Your arguments sound good, they have the affect that people that use them are going for, fear, but when you actually look at the facts, that fear tactic is pretty lame and weak. 


You know, I dont' give a shit if you are scared or arent and the last thing I'm trying to do is twist your words.  I'm just trying to present what I know as facts considering infectious disease and I'm trying to get you to take your blinders off considering your opinions and think about them for a second.   You can feed your dogs whatever you want as far as I'm concerned.  The thing I find troubling is you insisting that there are correlations with disease based on anecdotal claims at best.  You have absolutely no proof to back up many of the claims you make, but you sure do spout them off when you get a chance.   And you know what, even that is fine because I've come to expect you to spout off.  I don't want to argue with you.  Its just not worth it.  All I want you to do is think about what you are posting because we are guaranteed there is some other dumbass who will log in here and consider your words gospel....and then go kill their dog because they dont' have the brains to feed a raw diet that is appropriately balanced for the animal.  Does that make sense? 

The salmonella cases I've treated have all involved dogs that ate raw foods.  Thats right, food that was contaminated with salmonella that was not appropriately prepared or food that was taken from the garbage or the worst case was food offered in the form of scraps left from butchering.  You aren't going to 'build them up" by repeatedly exposing them to infectious diseases.  You yourself use that as the basis of your arguments why vaccinations are bad.  Its not about exposure to an abundance of salmonella.  its about salmonella growing under conditions that are favorable to the organism causing chronic disease or a chronic intermittant shedding effect. 

I do agree with you about digestability, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are severely mistaken with your assumptions that Canids are strict carnivores.  I don't have a position as to a homemade diet being better or worse for domestic dogs.  That said, I think there are variations with commercially available dog foods and feeding the cheapest isn't ideal. 

Using the dog and reptile example.... most people I know who own don't let their pet snakes access the same areas that they do their dogs.  Dog shit is right there on the carpet where a kid can eat it.  Snake shit is a solid pellet in some form of a container (cage, aquarium, snake room) that typically isn't accessable as easily as blowing diarrhea right out on the living room floor (the spot where every puppy I've ever owned has blown out diarrhea). 
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« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2007, 01:45:55 PM »

I wonder if in kibble fed dogs the level of hydrochloric acid is less so when they get kibble contaminated with salmonella their natural defense has been weakened from eating the inappropriate food, combined with the stress it takes on their system already digesting the inappropriate food, added to a digestive system that is designed for raw food and would usually have a short transit time, the transit time is lengthened because their bodies are trying to digest the inappropriate food so the salmonella gets to sit there for much much longer and has that much more of a chance to make them sick.

      Cheesy  yeah for long run on sentences!! 

Yeah, its a runon, but its a good thought. 


Quote
  Maybe man should stop trying to "fix" what is not broken which in turn causes more problems (that man then tries to fix, and so on...)

 If 36% of dogs at any time are actively shedding salmonella (and that number was obtained from KIBBLE fed dogs) I would think we would be hearing about a lot of cases of people getting it from dogs because that is a pretty high number.  The salmonella argument is used by anti-raw people because it can put fear in people.  But when you break it down and look at salmonella and raw feeding animals factually, it's laughable.   Cheesy 

I don't know, 36% of them shedding the disease is cause of concern to me. 


Quote
on the other hand, look at what the CDC has to say about salmonella:[/color]

Diseases from Reptiles

An estimated 3% of households in the United States own at least one reptile. Reptiles, including turtles, lizards, and snakes, can carry germs that make people sick. Of greatest importance is salmonellosis. An estimated 70,000 people get salmonellosis from contact with reptiles in the United States each year.

    Shocked
 
 Now Vet, you said that you said reptile restriction laws were stupid, but it seems to me that they are a public health hazard and asinine to allow just anyone to have them as a pet.   Cool


thats right cave into your ridiculous fears and use scare tactics....   Roll Eyes 


I'll be honest, I've always questioned CDC statistics with exotic pets.  The reporting is so haphazard, its hard to tell whats factual and what isn't.  for example, a household with a small child that has reptiles in the basement where the child NEVER comes into contact with the animal can be reported as the child getting salmonella from the reptile even though the kid admittantly ate spoiled chicken salad the weekend before.  It also varies because some municipalities with their exotic animal control laws require that ALL DISEASES SUSPECTED must be reported, but others don't. 


Can you get salmonella from a reptile?  yes, I know because I have.  Are reptiles dangerous because of that?  No, not if you use a bit of common sense and wash your fucking hands. 
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« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2007, 01:51:34 PM »

Quote
You aren't going to 'build them up" by repeatedly exposing them to infectious diseases.  You yourself use that as the basis of your arguments why vaccinations are bad.  Its not about exposure to an abundance of salmonella.  its about salmonella growing under conditions that are favorable to the organism causing chronic disease or a chronic intermittant shedding effect.

Again, I never said they are going to build up by repeatedly exposing them.  You missed what I said. 

I've known people with Iguanas and snakes (one Iguana was free roam) who let them roam around rooms.  So the snake (or reptile) never comes in contact with its feces and gets some transfer on it's body and then the person touches that spot?  With 70,000 cases of salmonella a year attributed to reptiles, that is an awful lot of people ingesting reptile shit.


        Grin

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« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2007, 02:00:03 PM »

Can you get salmonella from a reptile?  yes, I know because I have.  Are reptiles dangerous because of that?  No, not if you use a bit of common sense and wash your fucking hands. 

  You ate reptile shit?    You are some crazy people in vet school!!   Grin

 Wouldn't this apply to dogs also?  With a little common sense any threat to people is very small. 

 I don't think reptiles are dangerous or should be banned, I just used that as an example to refute not raw feeding because of salmonella.   I think when people use that angle it is using a scare tactic and inflating it. 

 For some reason the CDC only had the reptile salmonella cases number, no dog one? 

  Some people give their dogs apple cider vinegar with raises the acid in the stomach to combat salmonella.   I did in the beginning (because it has other benefits) but haven't in years.
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« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2007, 02:11:29 PM »

Quote
All I want you to do is think about what you are posting because we are guaranteed there is some other dumbass who will log in here and consider your words gospel.

  that wasn't very nice  Embarrassed





















                Grin
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« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2007, 05:07:16 PM »

Again, I never said they are going to build up by repeatedly exposing them.  You missed what I said. 

I've known people with Iguanas and snakes (one Iguana was free roam) who let them roam around rooms.  So the snake (or reptile) never comes in contact with its feces and gets some transfer on it's body and then the person touches that spot?  With 70,000 cases of salmonella a year attributed to reptiles, that is an awful lot of people ingesting reptile shit.


        Grin




Yup, but they aren't going to shed the bacteria through their skin.  Its fecal oral transmission.  that means shit to mouth.  Grin  Wink
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« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2007, 05:20:02 PM »

  You ate reptile shit?    You are some crazy people in vet school!!   Grin

yeah, i ate reptile shit.    When I was in college I worked for the herp lab at the university.  Part of my job was basically to go out and do field work catching species native to Missouri.  I got salmonella after catching some snakes, that shit all over me as I was trying to get weights and lengths on them.   I ate a sandwich after catching those snakes---I didn't wash my hands and apparently a sandwich bag is not a good protective cover from salmonella.  I was squirting brown water out my ass two days after that field trip. 

   
Quote
Wouldn't this apply to dogs also?  With a little common sense any threat to people is very small. 

I'm not arguing with you about that at all. 

 
Quote
I don't think reptiles are dangerous or should be banned, I just used that as an example to refute not raw feeding because of salmonella.   I think when people use that angle it is using a scare tactic and inflating it. 

I understand where you were coming from. 

Quote
For some reason the CDC only had the reptile salmonella cases number, no dog one? 

  Some people give their dogs apple cider vinegar with raises the acid in the stomach to combat salmonella.   I did in the beginning (because it has other benefits) but haven't in years.[/color]

The reptile cases go back to the baby turtle ban in the 1970's.  That redflagged reptiles as being "dangerous" and led to the tracking of salmonella. 


I honestly dont' know about apple cider vinegar.  I will say i've questioned it because the body does have buffering mechanisms (such as bicarbonate in saliva).  Not only that but stomach pH is lower (between 1.5-2.5 depending on your reference) than the pH of apple cider vinager (pH 3-4).  if anything i'd think it might actually temporarily raise   stomach pH until the body responded by secreting H+(Cl) ions, lowering it back to where it belongs, but thats a whole lot of chemistry I'm not in the mood of thinking about right now. 
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« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2007, 10:02:29 PM »

Flower.  Can you recommend a good kibble in your eyes.
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« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2007, 04:38:59 AM »

Flower.  Can you recommend a good kibble in your eyes.

The one that I recommend to people is the Chicken Soup line.  There was a recent thread and I thought you and JMT had some suggestions?  Canidae? Eagle Pack? 

  My ferrets (one 9 year old left now who eats the ground chicken "gravy" stuff I make for him) used to eat premium ferret food and I switched them to the Chicken Soup for Kittens and I noticed a difference so that is the only line I personally have any experience with.  I believe Princess L was (is?) feeding it, and STella too?  I haven't heard anything bad about it at least.  They weren't involved in the recall and have their own plants, they don't outsource it so they have better control over producing it. 

   This is a raw food thread you sneak!!
Angry .,..................... Grin 
 
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« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2007, 02:48:45 PM »

The one that I recommend to people is the Chicken Soup line.  There was a recent thread and I thought you and JMT had some suggestions?  Canidae? Eagle Pack? 

  My ferrets (one 9 year old left now who eats the ground chicken "gravy" stuff I make for him) used to eat premium ferret food and I switched them to the Chicken Soup for Kittens and I noticed a difference so that is the only line I personally have any experience with.  I believe Princess L was (is?) feeding it, and STella too?  I haven't heard anything bad about it at least.  They weren't involved in the recall and have their own plants, they don't outsource it so they have better control over producing it. 

   This is a raw food thread you sneak!!
Angry .,..................... Grin 
 

I was being serious.  I may try it.
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« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2007, 03:00:15 PM »

What about Timberwolf Organics?  Have you ever heard of them?

http://www.heartypet.com/products.php?cat=34

this food "TimberWolf Organics Southwest Chicken and Herbs Canid Formula" actually looks decent.  First three are meat.
http://www.heartypet.com/proddetail.php?prod=tw_dry5&cat=34
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« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2007, 05:58:38 AM »

one issue with the timberwolf, evo, solid gold and a few other high grade kibbles is the price.  you can get a 40lb bag of the canidae all life stages in the $35-$40 range while the 33lb bag of the timberwolf is in the $55-$60 range. its definetly one of the top kibbles but i dont see how it really justifies the big difference in price. canidae also gets rated as one of the best yet it is still priced more in line with some of the regular store brands. i think the chicken soup is also priced with the canidae.
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« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2008, 04:03:41 PM »

 
  bump for good eatin! !
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« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2009, 07:39:46 PM »

good thread
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« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2009, 04:36:45 PM »

 Wink
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« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2009, 04:45:32 PM »


  double  Wink  Wink


  I think I need to reorganize the dog's freezers again, I keep forgetting I have stuff!


 Anybody who raw feeds check yahoogroups for a co-op or buying group in your area.  You can get much better deals buying as a group and get more variety.  I buy stuff that is processed and sold strictly as pet food (organ grinds and tripe I buy mainly that way, I prefer to feed RMB's whole and not ground), and I also have access to bulk human grade items.


 
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« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2009, 11:00:57 PM »

awesome.  I'd like to buy some pets once again.
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