Author Topic: Year of the Donkey  (Read 6661 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 09:28:11 PM »
again

why do I care if oil companies pay more taxes??

why do you care?

I also said (wrote) above to leave dividend/cap gains/mortgage interest alone.

I think we should also find a mechanism to encourage savings.  Maybe make interest income on CD, savings, etc... tax free or taxed at a very low rate.  I think that could have a stablizing effect on the economy (another one of my brillian/worthless theories)

anyway good luck selling your argument against the "infamous tax cut's to the middle class"





Why are you asking me why you care if oil companies pay more taxes?  Only you know the answer to that question.

I'll say, again, that I favor tax cuts across the board.  That would includes every person and entity that pays taxes.  The government needs to run on less of my money.  On less of everyone's money. 

I agree they shouldn't touch capital gains taxes, unless they're going to reduce them.  I also agree they should leave the mortgage interest deduction alone.  They better. 

I'm not "selling" any argument.  I'm not even making an argument.  I'm expressing my opinion.  I'm an anti-tax militant.  Graduate of the Robert Novak school of tax reform. 

Straw Man

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 09:37:43 PM »
Dude - YOU are the one making the point about raising taxes on oil companies

I am responding to your questions

Why do you CONSTANTLY  deflect the question ("tea in china" .."why should I know what you want" etc..)

If you can't have a dialogue where you support your statements then there's no fucking reason to talk to you

Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2007, 09:44:31 PM »
Dude - YOU are the one making raising the point about raising taxes on oil companies

I am responding to your questions

Why do you CONSTANTLY  deflect the question ("tea in china" .."why should I know what you want" etc..)

If you can't have a dialogue where you support your statements then there's no fucking reason to talk to you


Well quit talking to me then.   ::)  I didn't make the point about raising taxes on oil companies.  The article did, which claims Edwards and Hillary want to raise taxes on oil companies. 

You asked a bizarre question:  "do you own or work for an oil company?"  My response:

"What does me owning or working for an oil company have to do with the price of tea in China?" 

Legitimate question (mine).   :)

Straw Man

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2007, 09:48:01 PM »
Well quit talking to me then.   ::)  I didn't make the point about raising taxes on oil companies.  The article did, which claims Edwards and Hillary want to raise taxes on oil companies. 

You asked a bizarre question:  "do you own or work for an oil company?"  My response:

"What does me owning or working for an oil company have to does with the price of tea in China?" 

Legitimate question (mine).   :)

I asked you if you worked for an oil company
 
That's a Yes or No Question

Did you answer the question?

btw - my question was a bit more nuanced and I know you know that, as do most everyone reading this (massive audience of less than 10 I'm sure)


Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »
I asked you if you worked for an oil company
 
That's a Yes or No Question

Did you answer the question?

btw - my question was a bit more nuanced and I know you know that, as do most everyone reading this (massive audience of less than 10 I'm sure)



Actually, you asked me if I owned or worked for an oil company.  And I answered your question with a question:

"What does me owning or working for an oil company have to does with the price of tea in China?"

Straw Man

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2007, 11:24:38 AM »
Actually, you asked me if I owned or worked for an oil company.  And I answered your question with a question:

"What does me owning or working for an oil company have to does with the price of tea in China?"

your "answer"/"non-answer"  has absolutely nothing to do with my question or my larger point (which is obvious to you and everyone else).   This is your standard MO - avoid the question (and the topic) by deflection.

you started this by claiming (or referencing an article that claims - I know you're big on semantics) that the Dems would raise taxes on oil companies and I asked you ( in various ways) why you or I should care if oil companies pay higher taxes?  They control a finite resources which we (as a species) must wean ourselves off.   The oil companies are also making WORLD RECORD profits at the expense of the common good.   So I ask you again, what's wrong with oil companies paying higher taxes???   Let's tax the shit out of them and put that revenue towards the development of alternative resources, mass transportation, rebuilding our education system (to support the ongoing need for smart people to work on these problems, etc.....) 

You also wrote:

Pretty obvious that the revenue generated from raising taxes on oil companies will be used to fund something else, probably the infamous "tax cuts for the middle class."   

And of course the "taking" is taxes.  A repeal of tax cuts results in higher taxes.  Increasing taxes on oil companies is "taking."

What's obvious (to me anyway) is any revenue received from taxing those with high incomes and/or the "big corporation" boogie man will not be used to provide relief to those same people/entities. 

I have no problem with the middle class paying less taxes.  There's something called discretionary income and the lower/middle class have less and less of it and a large part of the reason is the cost of enery (gas, heating oil, etc...)   I'm not going to lose any sleep at night if the oil companies have to cut their profits by a few billion dollars. They still have billions left over.  Also, cutting taxes on the middle/lower classes would be a good thing because people in that bracket tend to (by necessity) spend that money which is good for our economy but it would also be good for them to be able to save some money. 

Your statement  "revenue received by taxing those with high income...will not be used to provide relief to the same people/entities"  is baffling.   Of course the additional revenue would not go back to those entities.  What would be the point of that??

We (the US government) creates the rules for corporations to exist.   The only purpose of any corporation is to make a profit (usually by any means possible) and there are times when that has to be tempered with the common good.   Again - they control a finite resource on which our entire economic engine is run.  I see no problem with strong regulation of this industry and YES higher taxes for them too.



Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2007, 12:20:07 PM »
your "answer"/"non-answer"  has absolutely nothing to do with my question or my larger point (which is obvious to you and everyone else).   This is your standard MO - avoid the question (and the topic) by deflection.

you started this by claiming (or referencing an article that claims - I know you're big on semantics) that the Dems would raise taxes on oil companies and I asked you ( in various ways) why you or I should care if oil companies pay higher taxes?  They control a finite resources which we (as a species) must wean ourselves off.   The oil companies are also making WORLD RECORD profits at the expense of the common good.   So I ask you again, what's wrong with oil companies paying higher taxes???   Let's tax the shit out of them and put that revenue towards the development of alternative resources, mass transportation, rebuilding our education system (to support the ongoing need for smart people to work on these problems, etc.....) 

You also wrote:

I have no problem with the middle class paying less taxes.  There's something called discretionary income and the lower/middle class have less and less of it and a large part of the reason is the cost of enery (gas, heating oil, etc...)   I'm not going to lose any sleep at night if the oil companies have to cut their profits by a few billion dollars. They still have billions left over.  Also, cutting taxes on the middle/lower classes would be a good thing because people in that bracket tend to (by necessity) spend that money which is good for our economy but it would also be good for them to be able to save some money. 

Your statement  "revenue received by taxing those with high income...will not be used to provide relief to the same people/entities"  is baffling.   Of course the additional revenue would not go back to those entities.  What would be the point of that??

We (the US government) creates the rules for corporations to exist.   The only purpose of any corporation is to make a profit (usually by any means possible) and there are times when that has to be tempered with the common good.   Again - they control a finite resource on which our entire economic engine is run.  I see no problem with strong regulation of this industry and YES higher taxes for them too.




Dude you are all over the place.  It's actually your question about me owning or working for an oil company that has nothing to do with anything.  Don't get frustrated when I don't answer a question that doesn't make any sense. 

I've said, repeatedly, that I favor tax cuts across the board.  So of course I don't think we should be raising taxes on anyone, which includes "oil companies" (as much as I hate them).  That's the answer to your question about why "I" care about whether taxes are raised.  Whether "you" care is your problem. 

You asked me to explain how taxing oil companies would amount to redistribution of wealth.  Answer:  "What's obvious (to me anyway) is any revenue received from taxing those with high incomes and/or the "big corporation" boogie man will not be used to provide relief to those same people/entities."  In other words, they will tax a big oil company and/or a high income earner and spend the revenue received from these companies/individuals elsewhere.  You don't have to agree with my opinion (and I don't care if you do), but if you cannot understand that point, then I don't know what to say.

I also said I question whether the feds can pass laws that only raise taxes on specific entities.  Perhaps they can (e.g., tobacco taxes), but those higher taxes will only be passed along to us. 

Straw Man

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2007, 01:20:23 PM »
Dude you are all over the place.  It's actually your question about me owning or working for an oil company that has nothing to do with anything.

I guess my confusion was about your grave concern that the "Dems" wanted to raise taxes on oil companies and I thought maybe you worked for one, owned a bunch of stock etc...
I've said, repeatedly, that I favor tax cuts across the board.  So of course I don't think we should be raising taxes on anyone, which includes "oil companies" (as much as I hate them). 

I guess that's where we obviously differ.  I don't favor tax cuts across the board.  I actually draw some distinction between a family with 3 kids and a household income of 60k facing the growing costs of energy, healthcare, etc... vs. say an OIL COMPANY with the highest profits of any company in the history of mankind.   I even see an obvious distinction between OIL vs. virtually any other industry.  Oil is the commodity that drives our entire world economy so it's a bit different than pretty much any other industry.

Your mantra of  "tax cuts across the board" is simple minded (IMO)

In other words, they will tax a big oil company and/or a high income earner and spend the revenue received from these companies/individuals elsewhere

yes, that's the whole point.  First there is a difference between an oil company and a "high income earner".  I'm sure you aware of that.

Oil companies control a finite asset which as it becomes more scarce (combined with growing demand due to industrialization and population growth) will only get more expensive.   We, as a society, should take some of their EXTREME profit and use it to develop alternatives (for example -  we raise their taxes and use the increase in revenue to offer tax credits or various other methods to incentivize investments in the development of alternative energy).  Guess what -   Those very same oil companies can use these incentives (which were paid for by them) to help develop these absolutely necessary alternatives.     

These problems are complicated and require a bit more nuance than just  "lower taxes across the board for everyone"

Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 02:53:23 PM »
I guess my confusion was about your grave concern that the "Dems" wanted to raise taxes on oil companies and I thought maybe you worked for one, owned a bunch of stock etc...
I guess that's where we obviously differ.  I don't favor tax cuts across the board.  I actually draw some distinction between a family with 3 kids and a household income of 60k facing the growing costs of energy, healthcare, etc... vs. say an OIL COMPANY with the highest profits of any company in the history of mankind.   I even see an obvious distinction between OIL vs. virtually any other industry.  Oil is the commodity that drives our entire world economy so it's a bit different than pretty much any other industry.

Your mantra of  "tax cuts across the board" is simple minded (IMO)

yes, that's the whole point.  First there is a difference between an oil company and a "high income earner".  I'm sure you aware of that.

Oil companies control a finite asset which as it becomes more scarce (combined with growing demand due to industrialization and population growth) will only get more expensive.   We, as a society, should take some of their EXTREME profit and use it to develop alternatives (for example -  we raise their taxes and use the increase in revenue to offer tax credits or various other methods to incentivize investments in the development of alternative energy).  Guess what -   Those very same oil companies can use these incentives (which were paid for by them) to help develop these absolutely necessary alternatives.     

These problems are complicated and require a bit more nuance than just  "lower taxes across the board for everyone"

1.  I never expressed "grave concern" over Edwards and Hillary purportedly wanting to raise taxes on oil companies. 

2.  Yes my "mantra" of tax cuts across the board is simple, simple mindeded, etc.  That's the way taxes should be:  simple and low.  I'm not sure how to implement the policy, but people like Steve Forbes have advocated a "flat tax."  That's simple too.  But it's about a mindset that too many in government don't have:  how do we avoid taking more of the people's money. 

3.  I don't believe in class warfare (no you didn't say you advocated class warfare).  When it comes to taxes, I don't make any distinction between the classes, income, etc.  Everyone is entitled to relief IMO.  The proverbial "middle class family" is often used to justify class warfare/redistribution, but I don't buy it.  The government shouldn't have the right to reach deeper into someone's pocket solely because the person or business has been successful. 

4.   I said the following is redistribution of wealth:  "In other words, they will tax a big oil company and/or a high income earner and spend the revenue received from these companies/individuals elsewhere."  You agreed:  "yes, that's the whole point."

5.  I don't like the idea of targeting specific companies as a means to give that money to someone else.  (I'm repeating myself.   :-\

6.  You raise good points about the oil industry.  Still, I wouldn't use taxes to attack that industry.  I think we have laws on the books to deal the antitrust, price fixing, etc.  I'd be all for attacking them in that way for gouging consumers.   

Hedgehog

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2007, 03:02:39 PM »
That's what i'm saying bro,  these guys and companies need to be taxed.  Unfortunately, even then we the end users will pay for it anyway.

If the gas is highly taxed, people will look for alternatives.

The tax needs to be increased over a period of say 2-3 years.

Also, some of the money from the gas taxes should be directed at improving public transportation greatly.

Raising the tax on gas would make ethanol and other alternative fuels, a reality. Hybrid cars could shortly become a reality as well, if the gas is made expensive, and the alternatives ARE MADE CHEAP.

-Hedge
As empty as paradise

Straw Man

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2007, 07:31:29 PM »
1.  I never expressed "grave concern" over Edwards and Hillary purportedly wanting to raise taxes on oil companies. 

My perception since most of your argument seemed to about raising taxes on oil companies


2.  Yes my "mantra" of tax cuts across the board is simple, simple mindeded, etc.  That's the way taxes should be:  simple and low.  I'm not sure how to implement the policy, but people like Steve Forbes have advocated a "flat tax."  That's simple too.  But it's about a mindset that too many in government don't have:  how do we avoid taking more of the people's money. 

The problem is that the world is NOT simple and most of the tax laws and loopholes benefit the rich and the corporations who would be the first to bitch when all their loopholes went away. 

3.  I don't believe in class warfare (no you didn't say you advocated class warfare).  When it comes to taxes, I don't make any distinction between the classes, income, etc.  Everyone is entitled to relief IMO.  The proverbial "middle class family" is often used to justify class warfare/redistribution, but I don't buy it.  The government shouldn't have the right to reach deeper into someone's pocket solely because the person or business has been successful. 

A progressive tax sysytem is not class warfare and there is nothing proverbial about the middle class.  The middle class actually exists and makes up the largest % of our population.   The fact that you make no distinctions between income classes is part of the problem.  Let me give you an example outside the world of taxes.  Being a christian, I assume that you wouldn't want people to starve to death in a country with so much abundance as ours.  People at lower incomes can get food stamps.   If we're going to make no distinction between income then shouldn't we give foodstamps to everyone.   I make a lot of money but if I had food stamps I could save even more money.  It's not fair that I don't get food stamps.  Aren't we all equal?  Why should I be penalized because I make more money?
4.   I said the following is redistribution of wealth  "In other words, they will tax a big oil company and/or a high income earner and spend the revenue received from these companies/individuals elsewhere."  You agreed:  "yes, that's the whole point."

When I asked you how this redisdribution of wealth would work you mostly mentioned oil so my response was mostly about oil companies.   Again, I make a distinction between a human being or a human family vs. a corporation and also a distinction between oil/energy vs. other industries (for example dairy products)


5.  I don't like the idea of targeting specific companies as a means to give that money to someone else.  (I'm repeating myself.   :-\)    
I'm sure you realized that the  government "targets" all kinds of in all kinds of industries for special benefits (essentially taking from the commons and giving to the few), especially oil (and energy in general).  Every year around this time my CPA tries to convince me to invest in limited partnerships for oil and gas exploration.  The selling point being the special tax implications of these things.   The government also subsidizes agriculture and uses special tax credits and sometimes tariffs (taking this time instead of giving) in a bunch of different industries.  Let's not forget that the government grants exploration leases on government owned land for pennies on the dollar.   This is land that is part of the commons and owned by you and I.   Sweetheart deals for oil and gas companies so that they can extract a natural resource which then can then sell on the market to the highest bidder.  Again, your beliefs are simplistic but unfortunately the world is complicated (no offense intended - you said this yourself in #2 above)



6.  You raise good points about the oil industry.  Still, I wouldn't use taxes to attack that industry.  I think we have laws on the books to deal the antitrust, price fixing, etc.  I'd be all for attacking them in that way for gouging consumers.   
   
Nice sentiment but unfortunately a large portion of this natural resource is in fact controlled by a monopoly over which we have no control.  Other portions of it are owned by nation states and are not subject to our laws.   

If you believe that consumers are actually being gouged and you're fond of simplistic answers to complicated problems then why not just hit them with a windfall profit tax (not my preference but it is simple) or any of the other things I've mentioned. 
 

Dos Equis

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2007, 08:50:56 AM »
I didn't say I don't make distinctions between people when it comes to income in general.  Here is what I said:  "When it comes to taxes, I don't make any distinction between the classes, income, etc.  Everyone is entitled to relief IMO." 

OzmO

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Re: Year of the Donkey
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2007, 03:12:38 PM »
If the gas is highly taxed, people will look for alternatives.

The tax needs to be increased over a period of say 2-3 years.

Also, some of the money from the gas taxes should be directed at improving public transportation greatly.

Raising the tax on gas would make ethanol and other alternative fuels, a reality. Hybrid cars could shortly become a reality as well, if the gas is made expensive, and the alternatives ARE MADE CHEAP.

-Hedge

Cool.  I like it.  Makes sense.  Hope it happens.