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Author Topic: Prayer and Religion in Public Life  (Read 269603 times)
The Scott
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« Reply #525 on: November 08, 2018, 04:20:42 PM »

No. Loophole #3004 "While Christians can believe themselves morally superior to non Christians, they are also subject to the sins of the flesh and therefore are expected to sin. However the difference between those covered in the blood of the Lamb, and heathens is, Christians are forgiven for their sins. "

Sheeesh..."Let he who is so painfully and obviously without the intelligence evolution gave a dust bunny cast the first stupid comment".

Yeah...That would be you this time and said comment is quoted above.  Grin
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« Reply #526 on: November 09, 2018, 02:17:22 PM »

No. Loophole #3004 "While Christians can believe themselves morally superior to non Christians, they are also subject to the sins of the flesh and therefore are expected to sin. However the difference between those covered in the blood of the Lamb, and heathens is, Christians are forgiven for their sins. "

Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.

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Agnostic007
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« Reply #527 on: November 09, 2018, 03:28:43 PM »

Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.



Splitting hairs. Can you say with any truth that you will never sin again? Of course not. By default that means you are expected to sin, the difference is, your sins are allegedly paid for by Jesus' sacrifice, mine aren't, So no, I am not wrong. 
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #528 on: November 09, 2018, 03:31:24 PM »

I'm not talking about Christians who believe they are forgiven I'm talking about the atheist false argument that because evil exists or that Christians commit crimes this proves the non existence of God.

Never heard of that atheist argument. There are multitudes of things atheists will say prove the biblical god is fake, that's a new one for me. Though it closely resembles the Christian argument that because an atheist doesn't believe in god, he or she is prone to rape and murder. Had a co worker tell me that with a straight face. Couldn't understand why as a non believer, I wasn't just a moral mess, raping and killing at will since there was no God to hold me accountable. 
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #529 on: November 09, 2018, 03:32:27 PM »

Sheeesh..."Let he who is so painfully and obviously without the intelligence evolution gave a dust bunny cast the first stupid comment".

Yeah...That would be you this time and said comment is quoted above.  Grin


Care to explain why it is in your view stupid, rather than post the nonsense you posted which does nothing but waste peoples time reading?
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The Scott
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« Reply #530 on: November 09, 2018, 06:27:24 PM »

Care to explain why it is in your view stupid, rather than post the nonsense you posted which does nothing but waste peoples time reading?

I don't think for a minute you are this stupid.  The Nazarene said, "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin some more".  But you knew that. 

"Nonsense"?!  LOL!  I write.  You and so  many others here merely type.  A chimp can type.  Don't believe me?  The Queeron is a perfect example of just that.  So are many Op Ed pieces puked out by cucktard "journalists".  As I so succinctly said elsewhere to another misguided miscreant, if you want to try and be a man again, go find your nuts.  Even if you have to look in a bag of Peanut M&Ms.

Shit. Who knows, maybe yours are the toy surpise in a box of Cracker Jacks.  Oooooo...Cracker Jacks must be whitey food.  FTN.  And to Chicago with cucktards.


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« Reply #531 on: November 09, 2018, 09:28:35 PM »

I don't think for a minute you are this stupid.  The Nazarene said, "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin some more".  But you knew that. 

"Nonsense"?!  LOL!  I write.  You and so  many others here merely type.  A chimp can type.  Don't believe me?  The Queeron is a perfect example of just that.  So are many Op Ed pieces puked out by cucktard "journalists".  As I so succinctly said elsewhere to another misguided miscreant, if you want to try and be a man again, go find your nuts.  Even if you have to look in a bag of Peanut M&Ms.

Shit. Who knows, maybe yours are the toy surpise in a box of Cracker Jacks.  Oooooo...Cracker Jacks must be whitey food.  FTN.  And to Chicago with cucktards.




I'll cut through the chaff and focus on the issue at hand. Jesus said a lot of things Christians disregard. Matthew 6:5 is all but ignored. The reality is, Christians are expected to sin. It isn't encouraged, but it is accepted as part of life. If there was an option to live without sin, Jesus wouldn't have had to do what is alleged to have happened. Romans 3:23 backs me up "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
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« Reply #532 on: November 10, 2018, 05:16:12 AM »

Never heard of that atheist argument. There are multitudes of things atheists will say prove the biblical god is fake, that's a new one for me. Though it closely resembles the Christian argument that because an atheist doesn't believe in god, he or she is prone to rape and murder. Had a co worker tell me that with a straight face. Couldn't understand why as a non believer, I wasn't just a moral mess, raping and killing at will since there was no God to hold me accountable. 
That seems to be your argument as you point out the Christian's wrongs as a reason God doesn't exist.
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« Reply #533 on: November 12, 2018, 12:30:53 AM »

Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.



If mere belief (unjustified too, since there is absence of evidence, hence the need for faith!) is all it takes to be sanctified, then sanctity is a meaningless term. Membership in a treehouse club is more valuable; at least treehouses have some standards.

Let’s think about why Christ supposedly died on the cross: because god loved humans so much, that he wanted to see them saved. Great. But saved from what? Himself. Huh

The whole “Christ died for your sins” thing is irrational nonsense. God didn’t need to send Jesus. He could have said “aww, shucks, you guys. I love you so much, I’m taking back that thing I said earlier, where I basically doomed you all. Sorry, anger issues. I’m in therapy for it and I’m trying to work on myself.”

As it stands, if we buy the story, God sacrificed himself to appease himself and save us from his wrath. Seems rather circuitous and pointless.

I’ve heard legitimately crazy people make up stories that made no sense and are, somehow, less crazy than core and rather mainstream Christian beliefs.
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« Reply #534 on: November 13, 2018, 08:26:27 PM »

The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.
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« Reply #535 on: November 13, 2018, 09:38:41 PM »

The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.

I'm not sure I follow what's being said here?
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« Reply #536 on: November 14, 2018, 03:14:38 AM »

The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.
Agreed, the story has too many holes.  I never bought the story that God has to cast you to Hell unless you do x, y and z.  Remember that when the Bible was written people only knew punishment if they were immoral (didn't obey the rules) whereas ethics came out at a later time.  Even if the Christian story is off it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
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« Reply #537 on: November 14, 2018, 08:57:15 AM »

If mere belief (unjustified too, since there is absence of evidence, hence the need for faith!) is all it takes to be sanctified, then sanctity is a meaningless term. Membership in a treehouse club is more valuable; at least treehouses have some standards.

Let’s think about why Christ supposedly died on the cross: because god loved humans so much, that he wanted to see them saved. Great. But saved from what? Himself. Huh

The whole “Christ died for your sins” thing is irrational nonsense. God didn’t need to send Jesus. He could have said “aww, shucks, you guys. I love you so much, I’m taking back that thing I said earlier, where I basically doomed you all. Sorry, anger issues. I’m in therapy for it and I’m trying to work on myself.”

As it stands, if we buy the story, God sacrificed himself to appease himself and save us from his wrath. Seems rather circuitous and pointless.

I’ve heard legitimately crazy people make up stories that made no sense and are, somehow, less crazy than core and rather mainstream Christian beliefs.

Sure there’s evidence for God (you’re replying with evidence), but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.  Ironically, in most cases, these same objectors defy their own scientific requirements for following evidence to a conclusion….when it comes to God they ain’t following nothin LOL.   They dismiss God and thereby dismiss his objective absolutes in favor of their own subjectivity.  God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

What are Christians saved from?  God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.  God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.  It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.   Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.  God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.   Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.  Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?  “Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.   Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!  

God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.   Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.  We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.  Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.  Again, God needs for nothing, but we absolutely need him in order to be brought into righteous union with him.

All that said, going back to the original quote, there is no expectation for us to continue in sin.

Dang haven’t type this much in a post on GB in a very long time.  I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.
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« Reply #538 on: November 14, 2018, 02:54:19 PM »

I'm not sure I follow what's being said here?

The the Christian Apologists stock explanation for your question raises more questions than it answers.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #539 on: November 14, 2018, 02:57:40 PM »

Sure there’s evidence for God (you’re replying with evidence), but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.  Ironically, in most cases, these same objectors defy their own scientific requirements for following evidence to a conclusion….when it comes to God they ain’t following nothin LOL.   They dismiss God and thereby dismiss his objective absolutes in favor of their own subjectivity.  God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

What are Christians saved from?  God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.  God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.  It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.   Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.  God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.   Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.  Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?  “Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.   Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!  

God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.   Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.  We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.  Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.  Again, God needs for nothing, but we absolutely need him in order to be brought into righteous union with him.

All that said, going back to the original quote, there is no expectation for us to continue in sin.

Dang haven’t type this much in a post on GB in a very long time.  I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.


Question. IS it possible for a Christian to live his life without sin? If not, then there is an expectation that they will sin. They may certainly try not to sin, but if you know they will, its expected is it not?
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« Reply #540 on: November 15, 2018, 12:13:53 AM »

Sure there’s evidence for God

Before we get to that, you need to define God.


(you’re replying with evidence)

I'm just pointing out the irrational and absurd foundation of Christianity.


but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.

Can you please point to this "evidence" you speak of?


God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

I'm uninterested in examining this topic in depth (diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that) and while I do believe the generics are certainly dispositive vis-à-vis one's biological gender, several studies that utilize functional MRI have highlighted structural differences in the brain of biological males that identify as transgender. See here if interested.



Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

Assuming that the Christian God exists, his justice can't be righteous if he has set a standard for us that is, by his own admission, impossible for us to meet. And if he insists on enforcing that standard, his judgement is suspect.


What are Christians saved from?

The wrath of the being to whom they promise fealty, and the eternal fire and pain he promises in the book you claim contains his eternal and inerrant word?


God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.

Oh boy, there we go with C.S. Lewis' hell-is-living-without-you theory.


God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.

No. He is saving you from himself, since he's the one (in your world view) who imposes the punishment. It is in his power (omnipotent as he is) to accept you as you are, warts and all.


It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.

Love and grace would be to save everyone without preconditions; not threaten with "believe, or else."

If my wife is hanging from the 3rd floor balcony, I'll try and save her; I won't negotiate with her, by saying I'll save her but only if she, first, agrees to make me a steak.
 

Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.

My personal responsibility in what? Satisfying God's vanity? I don't feel any responsibility to stroke your God's ego.


God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.

It would be both irrational and immoral to pass a law that said "All cats must eat a vegan diet! Any cat caught killing and eating a bird, mouse or other animal will be euthanized." Not only because cats lack the rational capacity to understand, but because our law is impossible for a cat to follow: cats are obligate carnivores; they must eat meat. It is against their nature to not eat meat.
 
The situation with your God, if the Bible is accurate, is accurate is no different. We are told that sin is in our nature; that we cannot meet the requirements of the law that we are being forced to live under. That it is impossible for us because it is against our nature. I submit that punishing us for something that is beyond our control is morally wrong.


Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.

That's a nice bit of apologetics that C. S. Lewis dreamed up: you're not being tortured; just separated from God, which is what you wanted! Let us turn to Mark 9:47-48: "It is better that you enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to be thrown into hell with two eyes, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." I don't know man, sounds very much like torture to me.


Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

I see Mark's excerpt above didn't do the trick. Let us turn, brothers and sisters, to Matthew 18:8: "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire."

We aren't just talking about "no God" here. We are talking about eternal fire. Again, sounds very much like torture to me.


Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?

The Bible literally says that it impossible for us to live up to the standard that we are being asked to live up to. It doesn't sound like justice to me if I have no choice in the matter.


“Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.

Yes, we do that. But we put in place standards that people CAN follow. That is to say, we don't pass laws that make breathing illegal. Rather, we pass laws that make the premeditated killing of one human being by another illegal. And, what's more, in our system, in order to violate a law (a criminal law) you must have the requisite mens rea; without that, no crime can be committed.


Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!

"Judge, I know that running red lights is illegal, and I concede that there is video of me that shows me running the red light at the intersection of First and Main. Your Honor, this is a sworn affidavit by Mr. X attesting to the fact that minutes before this incident, a shipment of nails fell off his truck in the vicinity of the intersection. The nails punctured my vehicle's tires, which resulted in an unexpected loss of control of my vehicle through no fault of my own and prevented me from stopping. I respectfully ask that the Court find me not responsible for violating the statute, and dismiss this ticket."


God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.

Are you suggesting that it is possible for a human to be saved on his own merit, without relying on Jesus's sacrifice? Unless you are, Jesus was no demonstration of anything.


Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.

It's not righteous to punish someone for something that is outside of the control. If it's impossible for us t


We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.


Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.

If you define God as righteous, I guess that you could stretch denying him into denying righteousness. But there's no objective evidence that is righteous; indeed, several instances in the BIble suggest that he's anything but righteous (Mark 4:11-12).


I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.

I won't. I know that these sort of exchanges can be very draining. It's 3am here on a rainy night and bed is calling.
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