" All-loving God "

[loco]

I'm a generally good person and the type of person who will not willingly worship a mass murderer.  

I do not doubt that you are a good person, Tre!

My statements which you describe as 'crazy' do nothing more than to expose the fraud that's been perpetrated on mankind for generations.  I know, I know...the truth hurts religious zealots.  

If all the crazy stuff that you are saying were true, then maybe.  But you are mistaken.  I don't doubt that you really believe all that crazy stuff, but you are wrong about all of it.

IF Adam & Eve did not sin, then why were they expelled from the Garden of Eden?  

Who said that they didn't sin?  The Bible says that they did sin by eating the forbidden fruit, thus disobeying God.  That's why they were expelled.

BECAUSE God told them to 'be fruitful and multiply' they *had* to sin.  There was no choice.

Having sex was not their sin.  Eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was their sin.  God told them to have sex and have kids, nothing wrong with that.  But God did tell them not to eat the fruit.

IF Adam did not make the choice he did, then the multitude of generations brought forth from him would not exist.  (think 'flesh')

No.  If Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, we all would be running around naked, having sex, eating fruits and vegetables, and playing with lions and tigers in the garden of Eden.

BECAUSE the Bible condones so much wickedness, it is an amoral text.  

BECAUSE God admits to mass murder, I must challenge those who worship him so freely and who sit in judgment of others as if the Christian God-worshippers are the ones with any moral standing at all.

Here is just one example - from the Bible  (2 Samuel):

24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

Deuteronomy 9:5
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you"

Deuteronomy 12:31
"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."

God punishes wickedness.  God does not condone wickedness.  The punishment of wickedness by God is what you are now calling wickedness.    

Tre, are you a pacifist?  Do you believe in capital punishment?  What if a gang raped and killed all of your family?  What do you say would be what everyone in that gang deserves?  I'm just trying to understand where you are getting all this stuff from.  You say the Bible, but as I'm showing you here, you are way off.  Even an atheist knows how the story of Adam and Eve goes.

I'm a generally good person and the type of person who will not willingly worship a mass murderer.  

So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer?  Is that what you are saying?  

The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.

So what does that make us?  Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?  

[loco]

Let's clarify this a bit:

Rape, murder, destruction, killing of innocent, homeless, starvation etc.....

Are all effects of war.   They cannot be avoided.

Ozmo,
I do not like war, and neither does God. 

But can anything good come out of war?

[OzmO]

Ozmo,
I do not like war, and neither does God. 

But can anything good come out of war?

Of course.   

But remember, the actual sub-point of our discussion regarding war.   

God creates evil.

I suggested he might have been talking about war.  Although now, after looking up the definition of "evil" , i don't think that at all. 


Frankly,

If God is omnipotent, as it is said he is, then he has a many other ways he can get things done instead of going to war.

So, do good things come out fo war?  yes.   

But with a omnipotent God is it needed?  no!

The grace of God is a powerful thing when God choses to use it. 

[Colossus_500]

Let's clarify this a bit:

Rape, murder, destruction, killing of innocent, homeless, starvation etc.....

Are all effects of war.   They cannot be avoided.

OzmO, these things are also all affects of life.  War does not have to exist for these events to occur.

[Colossus_500]

Of course.   

But remember, the actual sub-point of our discussion regarding war.   

God creates evil.

I suggested he might have been talking about war.  Although now, after looking up the definition of "evil" , i don't think that at all. 


Frankly,

If God is omnipotent, as it is said he is, then he has a many other ways he can get things done instead of going to war.

So, do good things come out fo war?  yes.   

But with a omnipotent God is it needed?  no!

The grace of God is a powerful thing when God choses to use it. 

What you are doing sounds alot like how the different denominations have come about over the history of time....

A group will build it's foundation on one passage of the bible and a dogmatic and levitical life based on that one doctrine.  When you read a verse like the passage you and Loco have been debating for the past couple of days, you lose the context of what is being said.  I've learned that it's a good idea to read NOT just the one verse (which many people use to base their argument of why God does or does not exist), but perhaps 20-30 verses before AND after.  This yields a much greater understanding of what the context of the Scripture is saying.

[OzmO]

OzmO, these things are also all affects of life.  War does not have to exist for these events to occur.

yeah,  i know,  but we should avoid them, none the less.  I'm not always for the idea that the ends justify the means.

[OzmO]

What you are doing sounds alot like how the different denominations have come about over the history of time....

A group will build it's foundation on one passage of the bible and a dogmatic and levitical life based on that one doctrine.  When you read a verse like the passage you and Loco have been debating for the past couple of days, you lose the context of what is being said.  I've learned that it's a good idea to read NOT just the one verse (which many people use to base their argument of why God does or does not exist), but perhaps 20-30 verses before AND after.  This yields a much greater understanding of what the context of the Scripture is saying.

I agree.  But the passage is pretty direct:  I create evil.

I'm not discussing the existance of God with loco.  We both believe in that.  My debate with him is the Bible being the 100% word of God and i was using that as a supporting point to my argument.

[Colossus_500]

yeah,  i know,  but we should avoid them, none the less. 

Agreed.  But this goes to show why Christ has to die on the cross, because we are such a fallen/sinful people.  It's just in our nature. 

I just got goose bumps thinking about that fact.  Man, am I ever thankful to Christ for paying my debt of being such a wreched sinner.   Thank you, God! 

[OzmO]

Agreed.  But this goes to show why Christ has to die on the cross, because we are such a fallen/sinful people.  It's just in our nature. 

I just got goose bumps thinking about that fact.  Man, am I ever thankful to Christ for paying my debt of being such a wreched sinner.   Thank you, God! 

This could be a start to whole another discussion! 

[Oldschool Flip]

It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol

[loco]

It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol

Oldschool Flip,
Since you are no saint, isn't that wonderful?   

[Colossus_500]

It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol

I guess that's why they call God's grace "Amazing Grace"

[Oldschool Flip]

Oldschool Flip,
Since you are no saint, isn't that wonderful?   

Yes, because deep in my heart I don't reject anyone because a book tells me I should.

[Tre]

Yes, please, quote them all.     

Here are some more...

Lot's wife for looking back - Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Onan for masturbating - Genesis 38:9-10 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.  And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.  

A group of men who offered incense - Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

-----------

One person has done a rough count and found at least 2,270,365 murders attributed to God.  

I dunno, man, that's a pretty big number if you ask me.

[loco]

Here are some more...

Lot's wife for looking back - Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Onan for masturbating - Genesis 38:9-10 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.  And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.  

A group of men who offered incense - Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

-----------

One person has done a rough count and found at least 2,270,365 murders attributed to God.  

I dunno, man, that's a pretty big number if you ask me.

Murder?  God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer?  I call God a just and loving God.

So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer?  Is that what you are saying? 

The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.

So what does that make us?  Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?

[Tre]

Murder?  God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer?  I call God a just and loving God.

So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer?  Is that what you are saying? 

The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.

So what does that make us?  Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?

A couple of guys burning incense were guilty of murder?  And what about Lot's wife?  Did the punishment really fit the crime?  And the guy who jacked off - he deserved death for that??

Remind me again what the Crusades were about? 

[loco]

A couple of guys burning incense were guilty of murder?  And what about Lot's wife?  Did the punishment really fit the crime?  And the guy who jacked off - he deserved death for that??

Remind me again what the Crusades were about? 

Tre,
Are all Jews and Christians mass murderers?

[Wikidudeman]

Murder?  God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer?  I call God a just and loving God.

So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer?  Is that what you are saying? 

The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.

So what does that make us?  Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?

You're getting confused again. There is no "The Bible". To think of the Bible as one single book written by one person would be like thinking of the Wikipedia as one single website written by one single person. The Bible is a compilation of dozens of books written by dozens of people over several centuries.

You can't say that "The bible says this" or "The bible says that". This doesn't make any sense. If you look at the Bible as one single book then you can find parts where it says that God is "Good" and "just" and then you can find parts where it says God kills millions of people and orders the deaths of Children.

[OzmO]

Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.

Murder?  God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer?  I call God a just and loving God.

God had  3000 jews murdered for being insecure, for lacking faith.

The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.

So if I give testimony to someone countless times, like or 10 times, help out of there troubles, give food, shelter, and they still are unsure of "god"  then i should kill them?

Or perhaps, just turn that person's wife to salt?

Nah,  screw it,  just kill every living creature save what i can put in a boat.

Oh wait, i'll just take that fella and force to kill his son, then at the last moment let him off the hook.

Yeah, this is the type of example God int eBible has set for us to follow.

[loco]

You're getting confused again. There is no "The Bible". To think of the Bible as one single book written by one person would be like thinking of the Wikipedia as one single website written by one single person. The Bible is a compilation of dozens of books written by dozens of people over several centuries.

You can't say that "The bible says this" or "The bible says that". This doesn't make any sense. If you look at the Bible as one single book then you can find parts where it says that God is "Good" and "just" and then you can find parts where it says God kills millions of people and orders the deaths of Children.

I'm confused again?  Please do tell me when I was confused before.   
 
There is no Bible?  Perhaps you are the one who is confused. 

There certainly is "The Bible".  And we certainly can say "The Bible says that God is good and just."  And we can say "The Bible says that God wants us to become more like Him."
 
The Bible, the inspired Word of God was
 
1. Written over about a fifteen-hundred-year span.
 
2. Written by more than forty authors from every walk of life, including kings, military leaders, peasants philosophers, fishermen, tax collectors, poets, musicians, statesmen, scholars, and shepherds.
 
3. Written in different places
 
4. Written in different times
 
5. Written during different moods: Some wrote from the height of joy, others  from the depths of sorrow, others during times of despair, some during times of certainty and conviction, while others during days of confusion and doubt.
 
6. Written on three continents: Asia, Africa, Europe.
 
7. Written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek
 
8. Written in a wide variety of literary styles: poetry, historical narrative, song, law, prophecy, etc.
 
9. Addresses hundreds of controversial subjects, subjects that create opposing opinions when mentioned or discussed: marriage, divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, adultery, parenting, etc. 
 
Yet from Genesis through Revelations these writers addressed all these controversial subjects with an amazing degree of harmony.
 
Yet, in spite of its diversity, the Bible presents a single unfolding story: God's redemption of human beings.
 
Yet, the Bible is consistent and coherent throughout.
 
The Bible says that God is good and just.  The Bible never says that God is not good or that God is evil or unjust, thus it does not contradict itself.
 
The Bible says that God has killed babies.  The Bible never denies this.  The Bible never says elsewhere that God does not or has not killed babies, thus it does not contradict itself.
 
Only God can create life, and only God can rightfully and justly destroy it, and not some doctor in an abortion clinic.  Your life is not yours.  It is God's.

[loco]

Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.

God had  3000 jews murdered for being insecure, for lacking faith.


So if I give testimony to someone countless times, like or 10 times, help out of there troubles, give food, shelter, and they still are unsure of "god"  then i should kill them?

Or perhaps, just turn that person's wife to salt?

Nah,  screw it,  just kill every living creature save what i can put in a boat.

Oh wait, i'll just take that fella and force to kill his son, then at the last moment let him off the hook.

Yeah, this is the type of example God int eBible has set for us to follow.

Only God can create life, and only God can rightfully and justly destroy it, and not some doctor in an abortion clinic.  Your life is not yours.  It is God's.

[Oldschool Flip]

Again, for all we know the authors theat were ALLOWED in the Bible were probably eccentric or nut jobs. None of these idiots knew of life before they wrote it and that's why there is no mention of dinosaurs, other planets, and other star systems things of which we now KNOW exist because of science and technology.
If Sheryl Crow wrote a biography and book on her experiences and some catastrophic event obliterated everything except that book, the next intelligent life forms would think that that would be the next Bible! Lol.

[loco]

None of these idiots knew of life before they wrote it and that's why there is no mention of dinosaurs, other planets, and other star systems things of which we now KNOW exist because of science and technology.

Many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)
Attempts by scientists to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.   

and many others.

Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html

[loco]

Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.

Don't apologize, OzmO!  Bring it on.   

God does not need me or anyone to defend Him.

I am here so that you and many others may know Jesus Christ and thus be saved. 

I am here to give a reason for my faith and for what I believe.

Many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.  I am here to dispel those delusions and keep the skeptics from deceiving uninformed individuals who read these posts.

[OzmO]

Don't apologize, OzmO!  Bring it on.   

God does not need me or anyone to defend Him.

I am here so that you and many others may know Jesus Christ and thus be saved. 

I am here to give a reason for my faith and for what I believe.

Many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.  I am here to dispel those delusions and keep the skeptics from deceiving uninformed individuals who read these posts.

so when are you going to address your assertion of God wanting us to be more like him and him murdering people?

also by your assertion i should be able to rightfully kill my son?  So you are saying becuase he created me he has the right to kill me and it isn't murder? 

Again more evidence of God setting a great example for his followers.....


The Bible isn't out of date....it's just not the 100% word of God.