Author Topic: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties  (Read 16372 times)

Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2007, 07:55:06 AM »
You realize that the verse is about the man willingly forsaking his material wealth for spiritual wealth. Big difference.

It's not the job of the government to decide who gets what. That decision belongs to us.
It is the federal governments job to marshal vital national resources.  The US federal government wired the country then privatized that infrastructure (AT&T).  Same thing with rural electrification.  Same thing with the Internet.  The list goes on.

Straw Man

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2007, 08:00:23 AM »
LOL.  You are a riot.  You just quoted yourself.  The first part of paragraph 4 is a quote from me.  The second part of paragraph 4 is a quote from you, agreeing with me.  You can't be serious.  LOL . . . . 


for the 4th time now I think - this a quote from YOU (hint that's why it says Quote from Beach Bum) where you've embedded something (out of context with our current discussion) where I said I agreed with you.   If you go back and read the thread I'm agreeing with you solely on the an example I gave about taxing oil companies and using those profits to finance alternative fuels.   I am not agreeing with your paranoid delusion that the Dems are out to get your money.

You're either playing dumb or you're too stupid to understand that. 

Why don't you just put this all to rest and address what I asked you when I first responded in THIS THREAD and explain exactly how the Dems are ALL ABOUT redistribution of wealth.   Like I've said in the initial response - the Dems main problem is that no one knows that they are about.   The idea that they're ALL ABOUT getting their hands on your prescious money is lame.   If you believe it then back it up with some proof.   Me agreeing to another point in another discussion is not proof of your statement


w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2007, 08:02:58 AM »
It is the federal governments job to marshal vital national resources.  The US federal government wired the country then privatized that infrastructure (AT&T).  Same thing with rural electrification.  Same thing with the Internet.  The list goes on.

Are you saying that our hard earned wages are vital national resources that should be managed by the government?

Who works for who here? Does the government exist to work for us or do we exist to work for the government?


Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2007, 08:04:23 AM »
What exactly have Breck Grrl and Algore done for the poor? They're just two of thousands of politicians that control the mass population through taxation and layers of government red tape.

I think Edwards and Gore are hypocrites for several reasons but I want to stick to taxes.

Go watch America: Freedom to Facism and tell me if you don't think the Democrat and Republicans are different sides of the same beast.
No no.  Edwards'health insurance plan, Gore's health insurance plan (2000), saving social security instead of destroying it through privatization, Tax cuts for working families, Gore as vp helped pay down the debt--Bush's borrow and spend policies have added trillions to the debt (almost 9 trillion total), Edwards made his money as a lawyer representing the poor/middle class against negligent doctors.

There is a lot more.  You didn't bother to look.  It's easier to dismiss your opponent's and call them names.

Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2007, 08:10:53 AM »
Are you saying that our hard earned wages are vital national resources that should be managed by the government?

Who works for who here? Does the government exist to work for us or do we exist to work for the government?
It is the federal government that helps manage the smooth running of the free market.  It is the federal/state governments that, through tax revenue, support the police, public roads, satellite services, TV and phone wiring, the military, the justice system, an immunized & educated workforce, Public business and education loans and much more.

The federal government lends administrative organization to the country.  We all earn our money yet we are all in this together.  The federal government identifies national interests and works to support those ends.

w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2007, 08:13:45 AM »
No no.  Edwards'health insurance plan, Gore's health insurance plan (2000), saving social security instead of destroying it through privatization, Tax cuts for working families, Gore as vp helped pay down the debt--Bush's borrow and spend policies have added trillions to the debt (almost 9 trillion total), Edwards made his money as a lawyer representing the poor/middle class against negligent doctors.

There is a lot more.  You didn't bother to look.  It's easier to dismiss your opponent's and call them names.

I call guys them names because they're easy targets and it's fun. In the end it's their politics I have problems with.

Social security is a pipe dream and I seriously doubt if it will be there for any of us when (and if) we reach the age of eligibility. It's our money so WE should be able to exercise the option of putting it into an account that would yield a higher rate of return - our money our choice.

What tax cuts for working families did the Democrats give when they were in power? I was an enlisted man during the Clinton administration and don't recall my taxes going down at all.

I'll readily admit I'm not familiar with Edwards or Gore's ideas for health insurance. Can you please inform me on what they proposed?

FYI... Bush is NOT a true Reagan Republican. He's a southern Democrat.


Colossus_500

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2007, 08:15:09 AM »
No no.  Edwards'health insurance plan, Gore's health insurance plan (2000), saving social security instead of destroying it through privatization, Tax cuts for working families, Gore as vp helped pay down the debt--Bush's borrow and spend policies have added trillions to the debt (almost 9 trillion total), Edwards made his money as a lawyer representing the poor/middle class against negligent doctors.

There is a lot more.  You didn't bother to look.  It's easier to dismiss your opponent's and call them names.
Correction, the REPUBLICAN congress payed down the debt.  Remember the goverment shutting down a couple of times to make it happen?  I agree, the administration and Congress alike have been extremely frivolous with spending.  Yet, I also believe that no other president has endured what this current administration has had to deal with.  

w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2007, 08:19:12 AM »
It is the federal government that helps manage the smooth running of the free market.  It is the federal/state governments that, through tax revenue, support the police, public roads, satellite services, TV and phone wiring, the military, the justice system, an immunized & educated workforce, Public business and education loans and much more.

The federal government lends administrative organization to the country.  We all earn our money yet we are all in this together.  The federal government identifies national interests and works to support those ends.

Decker, you didn't answer my question. Are OUR wages vital national resources to be managed by the government?

I may be misinterpreting your statements here but you seem to favor a very strong centralized form of government. In my opinion that's dangerous to a functioning republic because it takes power away from the states and local government and more importantly away from the individuals that make up a working community.

Let me ask you a few questions if I may.

Do you think taxes on a man's wages are justified? Is it moral and more importantly is it Constitutional?

If you think they are how much should be taken away by the government?

How much money does one have to make to qualify as rich in America?


Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2007, 08:45:10 AM »
I call guys them names because they're easy targets and it's fun. In the end it's their politics I have problems with.

Social security is a pipe dream and I seriously doubt if it will be there for any of us when (and if) we reach the age of eligibility. It's our money so WE should be able to exercise the option of putting it into an account that would yield a higher rate of return - our money our choice.

What tax cuts for working families did the Democrats give when they were in power? I was an enlisted man during the Clinton administration and don't recall my taxes going down at all.

I'll readily admit I'm not familiar with Edwards or Gore's ideas for health insurance. Can you please inform me on what they proposed?

FYI... Bush is NOT a true Reagan Republican. He's a southern Democrat.
Social Security as it stands now will pay all benefits until 2043 without having to pay for the treasury notes that represent the amounts borrowed from the fund over the years.

Your SS is fine.  The "higher rate of return" argument is bogus.  When you are paying btn 12-19% of your SS account in brokerage charges/fees and other administrative costs under a privatized platform, you'll be begging for the less than 1% administrative cost of SS as it is presently run.  The SS system was not designed to be a wealth creator--it is social insurance guarding against abject povery (which costs the US a shitload more in longterm costs).

Clinton raised the earned income tax credit and expanded the child tax credit.

Here's a link to Edwards' health plan: http://johnedwards.com/about/issues/health-care-overview.pdf

Here's a link that explains it:  http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/02/the_edwards_hea.html

Here's a summary of Gore's plan from 2000:  http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/09/07/president.2000/gore.healthcare/

Bush is just like Reagan--except Reagan listened to his advisors when they told him to raise taxes to keep the government operating.  Both are 'Borrow and Spenders.'

Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2007, 08:48:05 AM »
Correction, the REPUBLICAN congress payed down the debt.  Remember the goverment shutting down a couple of times to make it happen?  I agree, the administration and Congress alike have been extremely frivolous with spending.  Yet, I also believe that no other president has endured what this current administration has had to deal with.  
No, the Clinton tax hike, the fruits of the business cycle and the increased efficiency from the computer revolution paid down the debt.

As for the present administration, no president has ever cut taxes and asked the citizens to shop during a time of war.  That is unconscionable.

Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2007, 08:56:57 AM »
Decker, you didn't answer my question. Are OUR wages vital national resources to be managed by the government?

I may be misinterpreting your statements here but you seem to favor a very strong centralized form of government. In my opinion that's dangerous to a functioning republic because it takes power away from the states and local government and more importantly away from the individuals that make up a working community.

Let me ask you a few questions if I may.

Do you think taxes on a man's wages are justified? Is it moral and more importantly is it Constitutional?

If you think they are how much should be taken away by the government?

How much money does one have to make to qualify as rich in America?
It's not a question of do I think that our wages are a vital national interest.  The tax revenues supplied by those wages are definitely part of the lifeblood of government. 

Our federal government is one that is By The People.  We are the government. 

That does not diminish the fact that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.  That vigilance was lost under the Bush administration and all sorts of unconstitutional things happened.

The constitution authorizes the raising of taxes.

The amount taxed is set by us through our representative form of government.

The definition of "rich" is in the eye of the beholder.  The federal government draws a poverty line every year.  From that merest subsistence level, one could define a dollar level for what is rich.

Maybe "rich" means getting enough unearned income so as not to work or be a productive member of society: e.g., Paris Hilton...or not having to worry about the costs of insurance or minor lifetime catastrophes.

w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2007, 10:29:34 AM »
It's not a question of do I think that our wages are a vital national interest.  The tax revenues supplied by those wages are definitely part of the lifeblood of government.

I agree. Taxes are necessary for a government to maintain it's infrastructure and provide basic services.

Quote
That does not diminish the fact that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.  That vigilance was lost under the Bush administration and all sorts of unconstitutional things happened.

Please stay on topic. We can discuss apples and oranges another time.

Quote
The constitution authorizes the raising of taxes.

Please provide the law that states that the government is authorized to directly tax income. This has gone to court serveral times and, to date, the government (IRS) has been unable to prove it's case. Additionally, from what I've been reading the 16th ammendment was NEVER ratified and the Supreme Court has (on two different occassions) ruled that the 16th ammendment did not authorize the federal government to directly tax income.

Quote
The amount taxed is set by us through our representative form of government.

I'm beginning to have my doubts about that.

Quote
The definition of "rich" is in the eye of the beholder.  The federal government draws a poverty line every year.  From that merest subsistence level, one could define a dollar level for what is rich.

Maybe "rich" means getting enough unearned income so as not to work or be a productive member of society: e.g., Paris Hilton...or not having to worry about the costs of insurance or minor lifetime catastrophes.

I asked what YOU think the line should be. Of course wealth is relative. A $35,000 annual salary in Alabama is not going to go as far in a state like the Peoples Republic of Maryland. So, I'll ask again. Since our tax code does not take regional cost of living expenses into consideration what is the line for "rich" in America?


Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2007, 11:01:53 AM »
Please provide the law that states that the government is authorized to directly tax income. This has gone to court serveral times and, to date, the government (IRS) has been unable to prove it's case. Additionally, from what I've been reading the 16th ammendment was NEVER ratified and the Supreme Court has (on two different occassions) ruled that the 16th ammendment did not authorize the federal government to directly tax income.

...

I asked what YOU think the line should be. Of course wealth is relative. A $35,000 annual salary in Alabama is not going to go as far in a state like the Peoples Republic of Maryland. So, I'll ask again. Since our tax code does not take regional cost of living expenses into consideration what is the line for "rich" in America?
Amendment XVI The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
That is more than enough constitutional authority for Congress to impose a variety of taxes.

Here is a link in reference to your contention that the 16th Amendment was never ratified: http://www.fraudguides.com/tax_protesting.asp

Here's a better source: http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/taxprot.htm
"Various persons and groups are actively marketing and selling a variety of information, legal products, and financial products based on interpretations of the U.S. Constitution as it relates to the Internal Revenue Code, and indeed the Internal Revenue Service itself.

The arguments include:

False arguments that the 16th Amendment to the Constitution (authorizing the income tax) was not properly ratified

False arguments that the Internal Revenue Code was not properly enacted by Congress

False arguments that the Internal Revenue Service was not properly constituted by either Congress or the Department of the Treasury (and is therefore operating as an "illegal" entity)

False arguments that "income" cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be owed

False arguments that only foreigners and citizens of the United States (falsely limited to citizens of the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.) are liable to pay income tax, and state citizens are not liable for income tax -- i.e., false arguments that the payment of income tax is really "voluntary" (you'd have to be a real sucker to believe this one).

False arguments about a number of like subjects regarding income tax, all of which erroneously conclude that nobody is liable to pay income tax

These arguments are all false, and demonstrably so. Anyone who advocates them is a liar, and anyone who believes them is either a dullard, a sucker, or a fool." (those aren't my words)
________________________ ___

The courts have never held in favor of any of the above arguments.

As far as fair apportionment of taxation and regional considerations are concerned, I think the graded progressive income tax is fine, IF it is left without exceptions. 

This country was at its most prosperous in the 1950s when earnings over $400,000 were taxed at a 94% clip.

I think anyone earning over $400,000 is 'rich.'

But most wealthy people make their fortunes in capital gains and not income tax.  So we are barking up the wrong tree here.


Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2007, 11:05:06 AM »
Here is a fantastic resource.

I used this doing my own research when I was in school

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

This source is the real deal.  That's how it's taught in tax classes in law school.

w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2007, 11:48:30 AM »
Amendment XVI The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
That is more than enough constitutional authority for Congress to impose a variety of taxes.

Here is a link in reference to your contention that the 16th Amendment was never ratified: http://www.fraudguides.com/tax_protesting.asp

Here's a better source: http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/taxprot.htm
"Various persons and groups are actively marketing and selling a variety of information, legal products, and financial products based on interpretations of the U.S. Constitution as it relates to the Internal Revenue Code, and indeed the Internal Revenue Service itself.

The arguments include:

False arguments that the 16th Amendment to the Constitution (authorizing the income tax) was not properly ratified

False arguments that the Internal Revenue Code was not properly enacted by Congress

False arguments that the Internal Revenue Service was not properly constituted by either Congress or the Department of the Treasury (and is therefore operating as an "illegal" entity)

False arguments that "income" cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be owed

False arguments that only foreigners and citizens of the United States (falsely limited to citizens of the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.) are liable to pay income tax, and state citizens are not liable for income tax -- i.e., false arguments that the payment of income tax is really "voluntary" (you'd have to be a real sucker to believe this one).

False arguments about a number of like subjects regarding income tax, all of which erroneously conclude that nobody is liable to pay income tax

These arguments are all false, and demonstrably so. Anyone who advocates them is a liar, and anyone who believes them is either a dullard, a sucker, or a fool." (those aren't my words)
________________________ ___

The courts have never held in favor of any of the above arguments.

As far as fair apportionment of taxation and regional considerations are concerned, I think the graded progressive income tax is fine, IF it is left without exceptions. 

This country was at its most prosperous in the 1950s when earnings over $400,000 were taxed at a 94% clip.

I think anyone earning over $400,000 is 'rich.'

But most wealthy people make their fortunes in capital gains and not income tax.  So we are barking up the wrong tree here.



Decker, while I do respect your opinion and I'm sure you have very valid reasons for having them I'm still very wary of a system where former IRS agents question the legallity of the tax code. Here are some links about former IRS agent Joseph Banister:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17023

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44956

http://www.freedomabovefortune.com

I can keep posting several articles that dispute what your websites claim to be lawful but we'll just go around in circles and neither of us will yield.

In the end I am of the opinion that our tax system is broken and penalizes Americans for success. When I have to pay out greater than a third of my salary to the government (federal, state, and local) in income taxes it leaves me less money to provide for my family and for my future. Especially when we are paying a long list of indirect taxes.

Read the above articles and keep an open mind. Forget that the link go to a conservative website and just read about the man and what he's found out.


w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2007, 11:59:40 AM »
This country was at its most prosperous in the 1950s when earnings over $400,000 were taxed at a 94% clip.

Sweet Jesus, man, how can ANYONE morally justify that?

Quote
I think anyone earning over $400,000 is 'rich.'

It's still their money to do with as they see fit. People who have money will spend it. This has been proven time and time again.

Quote
But most wealthy people make their fortunes in capital gains and not income tax.  So we are barking up the wrong tree here.

Right. We're talking about the taxation of a man's wages - his property.

Just think about it. Money is power.

Right now the government has the power and enforces those "laws" at the end of a gun.


Dos Equis

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2007, 12:04:00 PM »
This country was at its most prosperous in the 1950s when earnings over $400,000 were taxed at a 94% clip.

I think anyone earning over $400,000 is 'rich.'


Actually, net worth determines whether or not someone is "rich."  A person making $400,000 can still live paycheck to paycheck. 

And a 94 percent tax rate??  You support that? 

Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2007, 12:21:54 PM »
Decker, while I do respect your opinion and I'm sure you have very valid reasons for having them I'm still very wary of a system where former IRS agents question the legallity of the tax code. Here are some links about former IRS agent Joseph Banister:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17023

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44956

http://www.freedomabovefortune.com

I can keep posting several articles that dispute what your websites claim to be lawful but we'll just go around in circles and neither of us will yield.

In the end I am of the opinion that our tax system is broken and penalizes Americans for success. When I have to pay out greater than a third of my salary to the government (federal, state, and local) in income taxes it leaves me less money to provide for my family and for my future. Especially when we are paying a long list of indirect taxes.

Read the above articles and keep an open mind. Forget that the link go to a conservative website and just read about the man and what he's found out.
Thank you, I respect your reasoning as well.

The challenges that Joe Bannister makes are not original nor are they sustainable in a tax court of law.  He is not a tax lawyer.  I have been schooled in tax law (I'm a retirement benefits attorney) and I'm telling you, just read this link to disprove each of Mr. Bannister's contentions: http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#direct

The income tax schedule asks those with the strongest arms (the highest earners) to pay more.

The progressive tax schedule can be characterized as 'punishing success' but in my books, that's sort of shirking one's duty.  It's kind of cowardly to ask the weakest links in society to contribute as much as the best and brightest.  It is selfishness drawn to ridiculous lengths. 

Paying our taxes ensures our American Way of Life.  That is an honor and it is honorable to pay one's taxes.

Now I am not calling you a coward or anything of the like.  I think you are a smart guy.  As a matter of fact, I think tax relief is important and should be done every now and then just as taxes need to be raised every now and then.  But there are bills to be paid, roads to be built and armies to be supported.


w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2007, 12:24:47 PM »
Actually, net worth determines whether or not someone is "rich."  A person making $400,000 can still live paycheck to paycheck. 

And a 94 percent tax rate??  You support that? 


Here is a link to the report Joseph R. Banister wrote regarding these three issues:

  • Due to limitations imposed by the U.S. Constitution, filing of Federal Income Tax Returns and Payment of Federal Income Tax is VOLUNTARY not MANDATORY.
  • The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was never legally ratified.
  • The U.S. Government finances its operations from the UNCONSTITIONAL creation of fiat money, not with revenue from income taxes.

Info about Joseph Banister (www.freedomabovefortune. com):

This report was prepared by Joseph R. Banister, who graduated in 1986 from San Jose State University with a Bachelor's Degree in Accounting. He spent three years at KPMG Peat Marwick on their professional staff as a senior tax specialist and staff auditor. He then spent nearly two years in the venture capital industry during which time he became a licensed Certified Public Accountant (CPA) in the State of California. Mr. Banister left public practice as a CPA in 1993 when he accepted appointment as a Special Agent (criminal investigator) in the Department of the Treasury, IRS Criminal Investigation Division (IRS-CID). Unable to resolve conflicts between the way the IRS administered the Federal Income Tax and Mr. Banister's oath of office, he resigned from IRS-CID on February 25, 1999.



Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2007, 12:27:28 PM »
Actually, net worth determines whether or not someone is "rich."  A person making $400,000 can still live paycheck to paycheck. 

And a 94 percent tax rate??  You support that? 
That tax rate applies to each dollar earned over $400,000.  In the 1950s, that's a hell of a lot of money.  94% is pretty high but that is a graded scale where for each bracket, that wealthy person pays that bracket's tax percent.  I would have no problem with a top marginal rate of 70% for money earned in excess of million.

But that's me.

Anyway, the as we've noted, the rich make most of their wealth through either inheritance or capital gains--selling stocks, selling businesses, etc.  


Decker

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2007, 12:31:09 PM »
Here is a link to the report Joseph R. Banister wrote regarding these three issues:

  • Due to limitations imposed by the U.S. Constitution, filing of Federal Income Tax Returns and Payment of Federal Income Tax is VOLUNTARY not MANDATORY.
....
The income tax is voluntary.
This is a corruption of statements made by the IRS, the courts, and Congress to encourage taxpayer compliance with the tax laws, without the need for legal action against taxpayers.

A quotation frequently taken out of context by tax protesters is the following by the U.S. Supreme Court:

“Our tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment and not upon distraint.”
Flora v. United States, 362 U.S. 145, 175.

This quotation is out of context, because the court first noted that the government could collect the tax by exercising its power of distraint, “but we cannot believe that completing resort to this extraordinary procedure is either wise or in accord with congressional intent.” 362 U.S. at 175. In other words, Congress can collect taxes by force, but the court believed that Congress intended to give taxpayers an opportunity to comply before exercising that force.

This is better explained in Helvering v. Mitchell, (which was cited in the Flora decision), as follows:

“In assessing income taxes, the Government relies primarily upon the disclosure by the taxpayer of the relevant facts. This disclosure it requires him to make in his annual return. To ensure full and honest disclosure, to discourage fraudulent attempts to evade the tax, Congress imposes sanctions. Such sanctions may confessedly be either criminal or civil.”
Helvering v. Mitchell, 303 U.S. 391, 399 (1938).

When confronted by claims that income taxes are “voluntary,” courts readily explain that the payment of income tax is mandatory, not optional:

“Appellants’ claim that payment of federal income tax is voluntary clearly lacks substance.”
United States v. Gerads, 999 F.2d 1255 (8th Cir. 1993), cert. den. 510 U.S. 1193 (1994).

“The payment of income taxes is not optional ... and the average citizen knows that payment of income taxes is legally required.”
Schiff v. United States, 919 F.2d 830, 834 (2nd Cir. 1990).

“As the cited cases, as well as many others, have made abundantly clear, the following arguments alluded to by the Lonsdales are completely lacking in legal merit and patently frivolous: ... (6) the income tax is voluntary... “
Lonsdale v. United States, 919 F.2d 1440, 1448 (10th Cir. 1990).

“Any assertion that the payment of income taxes is voluntary is without merit. It is without question that the payment of income taxes is not voluntary. [citations omitted] The assertion that the filing of an income tax return is voluntary is, likewise, frivolous.”
United States v. Hartman, 915 F.Supp. 1227 (M.D.Fla. 1996).

“Based on his belief that the income tax system is based on voluntary compliance, Beresford wrote the IRS to explain that he had voluntarily chosen not to comply and would not be paying overdue income taxes for 1987, 1988, and 1989. The IRS issued a federal tax lien against him, which it satisfied by withholding $14,609.97 from the sale of Beresford’s house in October 1999. Beresford seeks to recover that sum plus interest and costs. He also seeks a permanent injunction ‘forbidding defendant from contacting him against his wishes and from directly or indirectly interfering in any other aspect of his life.’ Complaint at 11. ... Beresford’s primary contention, however, that the federal income tax system is based on voluntary compliance, has been held to be ‘completely lacking in legal merit and patently frivolous.’”
Steven M. Beresford v. IRS, et al., 86 AFTR2d Par. 2000-5200, No. 00-293-KI (July 13, 2000).

“The federal income tax is not voluntary, and a person may not elect to opt out of the federal tax laws by a unilateral act of revocation and recission.”
United States v. John L. Sasscer, 86 AFTR2d Par. 2000-5317, No. Y-97-3026 (D.C. Md. 9/25/2000), (footnote omitted).

“Upon review of May’s amended peition, we find no allegations of fact which could give rise to a valid claim; rather, the complaint merely contains conclusory assertions attacking the constitutionality of the Internal Revenue Code and its application to the taxpayer.[Footnote omitted.] Tax protest cases like this one raise no genuine controversy; the underlying legal issues have long been settled. See, e.g., Abrams, 82 T.C. at 406-07 (citing cases rejecting similar arguments). Because May’s petition raised no justiciable claims, the Tax Court properly dismissed the petition for failure to state a claim.”
May v. C.I.R., 752 F.2d 1301, 1302 (8th Cir. 1985), (among other things, May’s amended complaint alleged that “The filing of an ‘imcome’ [sic] tax return is ‘VOLUNTARY’ and penalties can not be instituted against a voluntary act since to do so would make the act ‘mandatory.’” 752 F.2d at 1304, note 3).

“His [Harris’s] claims that the payment of federal income taxes is voluntary, and that the IRS fraudulently induced him to pay his taxes by withholding that fact, are clearly without merit.”
Harris v. Irene Kinahan, et al., 87 AFTR2d Par. 2001-984, No. 00-5258 (3rd Cir. 18 May 2001).

See also, United States v. Raymond, 228 F.3d 804, 812 (7th Cir. 2000); Hyslep v. United States, 765 F.2d 1083, 1084 (11th Cir. 1985); Ginter v. Southern, 611 F.2d 1226, 1229 & n.2 (8th Cir. 1979), cert. den., 446 U.S. 967 (1980); Funk v. Commissioner, 687 F.2d 264, 265 (8th Cir. 1982); Lesoon v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 141 F.3d 1185, 1998 WL 166114 (10th Cir. 1998); Damron v. Yellow Freight System, Inc., 18 F. Supp. 2d 812, 819-20 (E.D. Tenn. 1998), aff’d, 188 F.3d 506 (6th Cir. 1999); Wilcox v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 848 F.2d 1007, 1008 (9th Cir. 1988).

The claims that “(1) Compliance with the internal revenue laws is voluntary or optional and not required by law, including arguments that: a. Filing a Federal tax or information return or paying tax is purely voluntary under the law, or similar arguments described as frivolous in Rev. Rul. 2007-20, 2007-14 I.R.B. ___....” has been identified by the IRS as a “frivolous position” that can result in a penalty of $5,000 when asserted in a tax return or included in certain collection-related submissions. Notice 2007-30, 2007-14 I.R.B. ___.

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Dos Equis

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2007, 12:31:26 PM »
Here is a link to the report Joseph R. Banister wrote regarding these three issues:

  • Due to limitations imposed by the U.S. Constitution, filing of Federal Income Tax Returns and Payment of Federal Income Tax is VOLUNTARY not MANDATORY.
  • The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was never legally ratified.
  • The U.S. Government finances its operations from the UNCONSTITIONAL creation of fiat money, not with revenue from income taxes.

Info about Joseph Banister (www.freedomabovefortune. com):

This report was prepared by Joseph R. Banister, who graduated in 1986 from San Jose State University with a Bachelor's Degree in Accounting. He spent three years at KPMG Peat Marwick on their professional staff as a senior tax specialist and staff auditor. He then spent nearly two years in the venture capital industry during which time he became a licensed Certified Public Accountant (CPA) in the State of California. Mr. Banister left public practice as a CPA in 1993 when he accepted appointment as a Special Agent (criminal investigator) in the Department of the Treasury, IRS Criminal Investigation Division (IRS-CID). Unable to resolve conflicts between the way the IRS administered the Federal Income Tax and Mr. Banister's oath of office, he resigned from IRS-CID on February 25, 1999.




Dude I have discussed this with tax protesters in the past.  I don't think it makes much sense to fight the system the way most tax protesters do.  Why risk jail, etc.?  I just suck it up and pay . . . with an attitude.  I HATE paying taxes.   >:(

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2007, 12:33:07 PM »
...
  • The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was never legally ratified.
The 16th Amendment was not properly ratified.
Although the Constitution describes how to ratify amendments, it doesn’t say who is supposed to keep track of the ratification process and let us know when the required three-fourths of the states have ratified an amendment. After some confusion about the status of some amendments (including the infamous “Titles of Nobility” amendment that fell at least one state short of ratification, but appeared in numerous copies of the Constitution in the early and middle 1800s), Congress decided that the Secretary of State should certify what amendments have been ratified. Congress proposed the 16th Amendment on July 12, 1909, and, on February 3, 1913, Secretary of State Philander Knox certified that it had been ratified.

The argument that the 16th Amendment was not ratified is best explained (and refuted) by this quotation from U.S. v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986):

“Thomas is a tax protester, and one of his arguments is that he did not need to file tax returns because the sixteenth amendment is not part of the constitution. It was not properly ratified, Thomas insists, repeating the argument of W. Benson & M. Beckman, The Law That Never Was (1985). Benson and Beckman review the documents concerning the states’ ratification of the sixteenth amendment and conclude that only four states ratified the sixteenth amendment; they insist that the official promulgation of that amendment by Secretary of State Knox in 1913 is therefore void.

“Benson and Beckman did not discover anything; they rediscovered something that Secretary Knox considered in 1913. Thirty-eight states ratified the sixteenth amendment, and thirty-seven sent formal instruments of ratification to the Secretary of State. (Minnesota notified the Secretary orally, and additional states ratified later; we consider only those Secretary Knox considered.) Only four instruments repeat the language of the sixteenth amendment exactly as Congress approved it. The others contain errors of diction, capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. The text Congress transmitted to the states was: “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.” Many of the instruments neglected to capitalize “States,” and some capitalized other words instead. The instrument from Illinois had “remuneration” in place of “enumeration”; the instrument from Missouri substituted “levy” for “lay”; the instrument from Washington had “income” not “incomes”; others made similar blunders.

“Thomas insists that because the states did not approve exactly the same text, the amendment did not go into effect. Secretary Knox considered this argument. The Solicitor of the Department of State drew up a list of the errors in the instruments and--taking into account both the triviality of the deviations and the treatment of earlier amendments that had experienced more substantial problems--advised the Secretary that he was authorized to declare the amendment adopted. The Secretary did so.

“Although Thomas urges us to take the view of several state courts that only agreement on the literal text may make a legal document effective, the Supreme Court follows the “enrolled bill rule.” If a legislative document is authenticated in regular form by the appropriate officials, the court treats that document as properly adopted. Field v. Clark, 143 U.S. 649, 36 L.Ed. 294, 12 S.Ct. 495 (1892). The principle is equally applicable to constitutional amendments. See Leser v. Garnett, 258 U.S. 130, 66 L.Ed. 505, 42 S.Ct. 217 (1922), which treats as conclusive the declaration of the Secretary of State that the nineteenth amendment had been adopted. In United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d. 457, 462-463, n.6 (7th Cir. 1986), we relied on Leser, as well as the inconsequential nature of the objections in the face of the 73-year acceptance of the effectiveness of the sixteenth amendment, to reject a claim similar to Thomas’. See also Coleman v. Miller, 307 U.S. 433, 83 L. Ed. 1385, 59 S. Ct. 972 (1939) (questions about ratification of amendments may be nonjusticiable). Secretary Knox declared that enough states had ratified the sixteenth amendment. The Secretary’ decision is not transparently defective. We need not decide when, if ever, such a decision may be reviewed in order to know that Secretary Knox’ decision is now beyond review.”
U.S. v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986).

It has also been claimed that the votes of Georgia legislature were recorded incorrectly and that Georgia actually rejected the amendment, contrary to Knox’ report. However, no Congressman or other official from Georgia has ever complained about the “error” and, even if there was an error and Georgia did not ratify the amendment, there would still have been thirty-seven ratifications, one more than the thirty-six required. (Article V of the Constitution requires that amendments to the Constitution be approved by the legislatures of three fourths of the states, and there were forty-eight states in 1913.)

Another claim is that the ratification of the 16th Amendment by several states was invalid because the constitutions of those states prohibited an income tax. A similar argument as to the 19th Amendment has been flatly rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court in connection with a different constitutional amendment:

“The second contention is that in the Constitutions of several of the 36 states named in the proclamation of the Secretary of State there are provisions which render inoperative the alleged ratifications by their Legislatures. The argument is that by reason of these specific provisions the Legislatures were without power to ratify. But the function of a state Legislature in ratifying a proposed amendment to the federal Constitution, like the function of Congress in proposing the amendment, is a federal function derived from the federal Constitution; and it transcends any limitations sought to be imposed by the people of a state.”
Leser v. Garnett, 258 U.S. 130, 136-137 (1922).

These technical arguments against the ratification of the 16th Amendment are troubling because they are so undemocratic (as are many other tax protester arguments). Except for a couple of claims about the votes of two states, there is really no doubt that Congress proposed an amendment that would give it the power to tax incomes, and that three fourths of the states approved the amendment. But tax protesters would like for the courts to nullify the amendment, and so nullify the power of Congress and the states to amend the Constitution, and so deny to the people the power to govern themselves, because of typographical errors.

But can courts even consider attacks on the validity of constitutional amendments? As noted by the 7th Circuit in Thomas, the argument that the 16th Amendment is invalid is not only legally and factually wrong, but it is an argument that federal courts are unable (or at least reluctant) to consider. The federal courts have always recognized limits upon their powers, and one of those limits is that the courts should not get involved in issues that the Constitution has entrusted to other branches of the government. The Constitution says that Congress may propose amendments, and the states may ratify them. Whether an amendment has been properly ratified is considered to be a “political question” to be resolved by Congress and the states, and not in court. In a challenge to the validity of the 19th Amendment, the Supreme Court ruled that official notices of the state legislatures to the Secretary of State were “binding upon him, and, being certified by his proclamation, is conclusive upon the courts.” Leser v. Garnett, 258 U.S. 130, 137 (1922).

Other decisions confirming (or refusing to consider) the validity of the 16th Amendment:

“Despite plaintiff’ and numerous other tax protesters’ contention that the Sixteenth Amendment was never ratified, courts have long recognized the Sixteenth Amendment’ ratification and validity.”
Betz v. United States, 40 Fed.Cl. 286, 295 (1998).

“As the cited cases, as well as many others, have made abundantly clear, the following arguments alluded to by the Lonsdales are completely lacking in legal merit and patently frivolous: .. .. (4) the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution is either invalid or applies only to corporations . . . .”
Lonsdale v. United States, 919 F.2d 1440, 1448 (10th Cir. 1990).

See also, United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d 457 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 273; Pollard v. Commissioner, 816 F.2d 603 (11th Cir. 1987); United States v. Benson, 941 F.2d 598 (7th Cir. 1991); Sochia v. Commissioner, 23 F.3d 941 (5th Cir. 1994), reh. den. 1994 U.S. App. LEXIS 22014; United States v. Stahl, 792 F.2d 1438 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 888; United State v. Sitka, 845 F.2d 43 (2nd Cir. 1988); Miller v. United States, 868 F.2d 236, 239-41 (7th Cir. 1989); Biermann v. Commissioner, 769 F.2d 707 (11th Cir. 1985); United States v. Buckner, 830 F.2d 102 (1987); United States v. Dube, 820 F.2d 886, 891 (7th Cir. 1986); Coleman v. Commissioner, 791 F.2d 68, 70-71 (7th Cir. 1986); United States v. Moore, 627 F.2d 830, 833 (7th Cir. 1980); Knoblauch v. Commissioner, 749 F.2d 200, 201 (1984) (“Every court that has considered this argument has rejected it.”), cert. den. 474 U.S. 830 (1985); United States v. Matheson, (9th Cir. 1986); Lysiak v. Commissioner, 816 F.2d 311, 312 (7th Cir. 1987); Quijano v. United States, 93 F.3d 26, 30 (1st Cir. 1996); United States v. Mundt, 29 F.3d 233, 237 (6th Cir. 1994).

In Rev. Rul. 2005-19, 2005-14 I.R.B. 819, the IRS confirmed that the argument that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified is “frivolous” and reliance on it can result in civil and criminal penalties.

The claim that “[t]he Sixteenth Amendment was not ratified, has no effect, contradicts the Constitution as originally ratified, lacks an enabling clause, or does not authorize a non-apportioned, direct income tax” has been identified by the IRS as a “frivolous position” that can result in a penalty of $5,000 when asserted in a tax return or included in certain collection-related submissions. Notice 2007-30, 2007-14 I.R.B. ___.

Tax Protester “Evidence”
A related (and even sillier) claim made by tax protesters is that the ratification of the 16th Amendment by Ohio was invalid because Ohio did not become a state until 1953(!). This strange claim is based on a strange action that Congress took in 1953 to confirm that Ohio was indeed a state. Briefly:

By an act of April 30, 1802 (2 Stat. 173), section 1, Congress provided that “the inhabitants of the eastern division of the territory northwest of the river Ohio, be, and they are hereby authorized to form for themselves a constitution and state government, and to assume such name as they shall deem proper, and the said state, when formed, shall be admitted into the Union, upon the same footing with the original states, in all respects whatsoever.” (This was consistent with the Northwest Territory Ordinance of 1787, which provided that there should be formed from the territory at least three but not more than five states.)

A convention met in Ohio on November 1, 1802, and adopted a constitution on November 29, 1802.

On January 19, 1803, a special committee of Congress reported that “the said Constitution and government so formed is republican, and in conformity to the principles contained in the articles of the ordinance made on the 13th day of July 1787, for the Government of the said Territory: and that it is now necessary to establish a district court within the said State, to carry into complete effect the laws of the United States within the same.” Annals of Congress, 7th Cong., 2d sess., p. 21.

Congress then enacted legislation to declare that all of the laws of the United States shall be in force within the state of Ohio and to establish a federal district court in Ohio, stating in the preamble that “the said state has become one of the United States of America.” Act of February 19, 1803 (2 Stat. 201).

Ohio began sending Representatives and Senators to Congress, began voting in Presidential elections, and has been considered to be a state ever since.

So what’ the problem? When Ohio was preparing for the 150th anniversary of its statehood, researchers discovered that they couldn’t establish the exact date that Ohio became a state, and that there was some confusion on the issue. For example, the Senate Manual (S. Doc. 5, 82d Cong., p. 570) gave the date as March 3, 1803, while the Congressional Biographical Directory (H. Doc. 607, 81st Cong., p. 76, note 9) gave the date as November 29, 1802. Further research showed that Ohio was unique because Congress declared that Ohio would become a state upon fulfilling certain conditions but had never formally declared that the conditions had been met. In admitting other states, Congress either declared that the state would be admitted as of a certain date, or passed an enabling act and then later declared that the state was admitted. In the case of Ohio, Congress passed an enabling act but never formally declared that the conditions of the enabling act had been met, either due to an oversight or due to a belief that a formal declaration was not intended and not needed.

In a 1953 report to Congress, the Legislative Reference Service of the Library of Congress stated that the lack of a formal resolution “may be considered unessential.” (1953 U.S.C.C.A.N. 2126, 2128.) However, Ohio asked for a formal declaration, sending a new petition for statehood to Washington by horseback (yes, in 1953), and Congress complied (with a certain number of snide jokes), passing a joint resolution that declared Ohio to be one of the United States of America as of March 1, 1803. P.L. 82-204, 67 Stat. 407. The Senate Report to the resolution states that the purpose was “to make formal, legal declaration of the de facto situation with respect to the admission of Ohio as a State of the United States.” Senate Report No. 720, 1953 U.S.C.C.A.N. 2124.

So the fact of the matter was that Ohio was accepted as a state of the United States sometime in 1802 or 1803 and Congress declared the admission to be as of a certain date in 1803, but the declaration was not made until 1953.


w8tlftr

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2007, 12:34:05 PM »
Thank you, I respect your reasoning as well.

The challenges that Joe Bannister makes are not original nor are they sustainable in a tax court of law.  He is not a tax lawyer.  I have been schooled in tax law (I'm a retirement benefits attorney) and I'm telling you, just read this link to disprove each of Mr. Bannister's contentions: http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#direct

The income tax schedule asks those with the strongest arms (the highest earners) to pay more.

The progressive tax schedule can be characterized as 'punishing success' but in my books, that's sort of shirking one's duty.  It's kind of cowardly to ask the weakest links in society to contribute as much as the best and brightest.  It is selfishness drawn to ridiculous lengths. 

Paying our taxes ensures our American Way of Life.  That is an honor and it is honorable to pay one's taxes.

Now I am not calling you a coward or anything of the like.  I think you are a smart guy.  As a matter of fact, I think tax relief is important and should be done every now and then just as taxes need to be raised every now and then.  But there are bills to be paid, roads to be built and armies to be supported.



Thanks for the link, Decker. I'm going to check it out once I've completed thoroughly reading Banister's report.

Okay, we're in agreement here. Taxes are a necessary for the government to function and for us, as Americans, to enjoy the quality of life we have and to ensure other have access to an equal playing field to succeed and live the American dream.

That said, I think there are a lot of very smart people (much more educated in this than I am) who keep asking very interesting questions and it alarms me that OUR government will not directly answer them.


Dos Equis

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Re: A Little Bit of History about Our Two Major Parties
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2007, 12:35:37 PM »
That tax rate applies to each dollar earned over $400,000.  In the 1950s, that's a hell of a lot of money.  94% is pretty high but that is a graded scale where for each bracket, that wealthy person pays that bracket's tax percent.  I would have no problem with a top marginal rate of 70% for money earned in excess of million.

But that's me.

Anyway, the as we've noted, the rich make most of their wealth through either inheritance or capital gains--selling stocks, selling businesses, etc.  



Geeze man.  A 70 percent tax rate?  Sounds like socialism to me.  I think even Canada is "only" at about 50 percent for higher income earners.    

And the vast majority of the "rich" (those with a high net worth) in this country did not inherit their wealth, etc.  They earned it through hard work, saving, conservative investing, and living below their means.  You should read "The Millionaire Next Door" and "The Millionaire Mind."  Clearly shows most American millionaires did not inherit their money and worked very hard to obtain what they have.