Should the U.S. have universal healthcare for children?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

I disagree.  Hard work, good decision making, living below your means, etc. can definitely result in the "American Dream." 

So can buying a lottery ticket.  But neither hard work nor buying the ticket is any guarantee that life will improve.

[w8tlftr]

If military hospitals are poor, it is because the neoconservative desire for privatization underfunds them to make them look poor. Then fools like you will assume that it is because government programs don't work.  As Jag pointed out, UHC would cost a fraction of the war we are paying for (paying TO the owners of the military-industrial complex, i.e., Bush/Cheney and friends).

And your other post:
"And don't blame the government for making kids suffer. Blame the parents for having kids they can't support."


Why should we stand by and let kids suffer because their parents couldn't afford good care for whatever reason (including being middle class without healthcare).  Also, let's stop the anti-abortion crusaders who are happy to have more kids suffering in this world.

It's called accountability, dumbass. There are private charities available for families in need. Accountability is what you won't have if the government takes over your medical care.

Socialized medicine doesn't work. I don't care how hard you head-in-the-cloud big government zealots wish it to be.

[Decker]

I disagree.  Hard work, good decision making, living below your means, etc. can definitely result in the "American Dream." 

It can for a some people.  But many americans will never taste that success.  Wages have been fairly stagnant since the early 1970s while 'hours worked' have gone through the ceiling.

We are working much harder for less and paying more for goods/services thanks to inflation.  This country has a negative savings rate and president beating the drum for more shopping.  We live on credit.

The stranglehold credit card companies have on this country is amazing:  miss a payment and your interest rate goes through the roof, declare bankruptcy but you can't discharge credit card debt.

The deck is stacked and it certainly isn't in favor of the middle class and poor.

[w8tlftr]

I lived in New Zealand for a year and they have a great UHC system.  Easy to get appointments, doctors who took time to talk to you, cheap prescriptions.  I don't know where you get the idea that the Canadian healthcare system is overrun by people with headcolds, but I would guess that its not from living in Canada.

Yay for New Zealand.

Lots of room in the hospital for the 50 people and the 200 sheep that live there.

[egj13]

Good example of someone buying into the American Dream (as George Carlin points out, you have to be dreaming to believe it).  By this logic, people who work in low paying jobs aren't working hard enough.  Newsflash- hard work does not necessarily result in a house in the suburbs.  

I am far from living in the burbs. I was a Wal-mart worker. Realized that wasn't going to get me far so I joined the military. Most people that work in low paying jobs are there for a reason. Not all but most.

[Decker]

It's called accountability, dumbass. There are private charities available for families in need. Accountability is what you won't have if the government takes over your medical care.

Socialized medicine doesn't work. I don't care how hard you head-in-the-cloud big government zealots wish it to be.

Accountability is exactly what you will have with a government run system.  The General Accounting Office would beg to differ with you.  Are you intimating that Social Security is rife with corruption?  Or Medicaid? 

Socialized medicine doesn't work?  If you mean Universal Health Care won't work, I suggest you contact these countries and tell them that they are doing it wrong:

Argentina,Australia,Austria, Belgium,Brazil, Canada, Cuba, Denmark, Finland,France, Germany,Greece,, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan,The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Korea Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom, Mexico, South Africa and Thailand

[egj13]

Some people view healthcare as a right.

How do you quantify fairness?

Everyone grab as much with both hands and those on the short end of the stick...well you had your shot? 

Your Horatio Alger story is facile.  People work hard all the time but the world needs ditch diggers too.  Unfortuately those (necessary) ditch diggers cannot afford basic healtcare.

Why is the cost of insurance so high?

Last year the top 6 health insurers netted 10 billion in profits. 

How does "my party" want to hand "everything" to "everyone?"

your party is the welfare party

[Dos Equis]

So can buying a lottery ticket.  But neither hard work nor buying the ticket is any guarantee that life will improve.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, but hard work typically trumps a lottery ticket. 

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Socialized medicine doesn't work.

The rest of the civilized world disagrees.  Would you also prefer that we give up similar "socialist" programs like having the FDA test and regulate food and drugs?  Should we allow a free market system of drugs where people can buy anything they want without a doctor's prescription (doctor's act as representatives of the government, prescribing only what is allowed for particular conditions).  Hey, you could get all the roids you want at the store! (of course you'd have to take the word of the manufacturer that they contained what they said- having eliminated the FDA).

[egj13]

The rest of the civilized world disagrees.  Would you also prefer that we give up similar "socialist" programs like having the FDA test and regulate food and drugs?  Should we allow a free market system of drugs where people can buy anything they want without a doctor's prescription (doctor's act as representatives of the government, prescribing only what is allowed for particular conditions).  Hey, you could get all the roids you want at the store! (of course you'd have to take the word of the manufacturer that they contained what they said- having eliminated the FDA).

If you give an American something for free they will abuse it. Medical care is no different.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

I am far from living in the burbs. I was a Wal-mart worker. Realized that wasn't going to get me far so I joined the military. Most people that work in low paying jobs are there for a reason. Not all but most.

And what is the reason?  They like it?  

The military is a fine option.  Go and lose one's autonomy and kill people because the people in power make money off it.  I expect you'll be joining Blackwater and getting paid a great salary for mercenary activity.

[240 is Back]

guys - i am not endorsing it at all.

I am asking you though - do you think the nation's planners, (themselves rich men looking out for the greater good and long term sustainability of the nation) would take into consideration the longer lives that the poor would lead, and the economic impact it would have on the soc sec system?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

If you give an American something for free they will abuse it. Medical care is no different.

Better to give them nothing and let them suffer.  Tough luck for the kids without healthcare!  Another example of compassionate conservative in action!

[Dos Equis]

It can for a some people.  But many americans will never taste that success.  Wages have been fairly stagnant since the early 1970s while 'hours worked' have gone through the ceiling.

We are working much harder for less and paying more for goods/services thanks to inflation.  This country has a negative savings rate and president beating the drum for more shopping.  We live on credit.

The stranglehold credit card companies have on this country is amazing:  miss a payment and your interest rate goes through the roof, declare bankruptcy but you can't discharge credit card debt.

The deck is stacked and it certainly isn't in favor of the middle class and poor.

Yes inflation has gone up, but home ownership is at an all time high (I think) and there are a plethora of job and educational opportunities for pretty much every American, regardless of income, education, or disability.  There are social factors that greatly impact a person's success (e.g., lack of a father--or strong father--in the home), but the opportunities are there.

I agree the deck is stacked against people who live in poverty and don't have an education, but we already have plenty of things in place to help them succeed.    

[egj13]

guys - i am not endorsing it at all.

I am asking you though - do you think the nation's planners, (themselves rich men looking out for the greater good and long term sustainability of the nation) would take into consideration the longer lives that the poor would lead, and the economic impact it would have on the soc sec system?

you don't quit with the CT stuff do you.

[Decker]

your party is the welfare party

Zing.  So what.  You have a problem with welfare?  

Welfare is proven to battle poverty effectively.  

Welfare gives people down on their luck a second chance at getting back on their feet as contributing workers thus keeping the pool of available workers afloat thus keeping inflation at bay.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

(themselves rich men looking out for the greater good and long term sustainability of the nation)

I hate to break it to you but...

[w8tlftr]

Accountability is exactly what you will have with a government run system.  The General Accounting Office would beg to differ with you.  Are you intimating that Social Security is rife with corruption?  Or Medicaid? 

Socialized medicine doesn't work?  If you mean Universal Health Care won't work, I suggest you contact these countries and tell them that they are doing it wrong:

Argentina,Australia,Austria, Belgium,Brazil, Canada, Cuba, Denmark, Finland,France, Germany,Greece,, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan,The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Korea Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom, Mexico, South Africa and Thailand

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying, Decker. We've had this talk before about taxes and how our money is wasted and how it should be given back to the people so WE can make choices for ourselves.

You want me to ask a government office if they think the government is buried in corruption and layers of red tape? Do you honestly think they'll say, "Yeah, maybe just a bit"?

Tell me something. If all the countries you listed have such fantastic health care systems then why do so many people come to the United States for treatment? Is there any other country you would rather have medical treatment besides here?

[egj13]

Better to give them nothing and let them suffer.  Tough luck for the kids without healthcare!  Another example of compassionate conservative in action!

Like I said before, I would rather give 85% great healthcare than give 100% poor health care.

[egj13]

Zing.  So what.  You have a problem with welfare?  

Welfare is proven to battle poverty effectively.  

Welfare gives people down on their luck a second chance at getting back on their feet as contributing workers thus keeping the pool of available workers afloat thus keeping inflation at bay.

lmao, "down on their luck" right, you might get 10% of the people on welfare just needing a helping hand for a short period. The rest live on it for life because it is to easy.

[Decker]

Yes inflation has gone up, but home ownership is at an all time high (I think) and there are a plethora of job and educational opportunities for pretty much every American, regardless of income, education, or disability.  There are social factors that greatly impact a person's success (e.g., lack of a father--or strong father--in the home), but the opportunities are there.

I agree the deck is stacked against people who live in poverty and don't have an education, but we already have plenty of things in place to help them succeed.    

The home ownership bubble is largely due to the purchase of second, third and fourth homes amongst the wealthy and nonsensical interest only loans (which are crashing as we speak).

Jobs are out there for certain.  But for the marginally talented, those jobs don't carry Health Insurance. 

But we are on the same page.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

I agree the deck is stacked against people who live in poverty and don't have an education, but we already have plenty of things in place to help them succeed.    

You mean that we have plenty of things in place to help keep people stuck in the same socio-economic level.  The U.S. is way down on the least in regards to people changing their economic status.  Good news for the rich!

[240 is Back]

I'm glad you point out the "morally offensive" part.  I see your years of aligning with conservative values has stayed with you.  It sounds like you would prefer that people suffer and die at age 50 if it saves you a couple bucks. How American of you.

If you really want to look at the bigger picture, remember that prevention is cheaper than intervention.  So if money is spent on helping people prevent illness, there won't need to be as much spent on emergency medical procedures.  

Also (from your humanistic conservative roots) comes your assumption that people without healthcare are non-contributing.  Not having healthcare doesn't mean that people aren't working.  Ask any WalMart employee.  There's the future of privatization.  People want to work, be paid fairly, and have affordable food, housing, and healthcare.  These are all liberal/humanistic values.  

The social security system is also a liberal program.  Its the conservatives who want to take the social security money and cash in early, leaving everyone else penniless.  A government protected social security system is crucial for humane treatment of the elderly, and to keep healthcare costs manageable.

Finally, in the bigger picture, what's the war costing?  Its a lot more expensive to kill people than to help them.

I'm not condoning it.  

I KNOW that prevention is cheaper than treatment.  But what number is bigger - free occasional treatment of a non-contributor for 40 years before he kicks off of a heart attack, or free preventative medicine of the same non-contributor who will now live to be 90 year old?

I am saying that when congressional committees look at the number - and realize not only the initial costs, but the longterm ripple effects on the economy - they might be less likely to support univ. health care.  Hell, their families have coverage.  ANd their donors have coverage.  The people who don't - also don't pay much in taxes, contribute much to greater good, or even vote in many cases.



So I'm not endorsing it - but I am saying I'm pretty darn sure the economic effects of bottom third producing of nation living an extra 30 years plays into their decision making process.  You guys don't think so?

[w8tlftr]

The rest of the civilized world disagrees.  Would you also prefer that we give up similar "socialist" programs like having the FDA test and regulate food and drugs?  Should we allow a free market system of drugs where people can buy anything they want without a doctor's prescription (doctor's act as representatives of the government, prescribing only what is allowed for particular conditions).  Hey, you could get all the roids you want at the store! (of course you'd have to take the word of the manufacturer that they contained what they said- having eliminated the FDA).

I didn't say the government doesn't have it's place. I have no problem with the FDA regulating the drugs pumped out the the public.

I just don't want the government dictating my medical care.

[Decker]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying, Decker. We've had this talk before about taxes and how our money is wasted and how it should be given back to the people so WE can make choices for ourselves.

You want me to ask a government office if they think the government is buried in corruption and layers of red tape? Do you honestly think they'll say, "Yeah, maybe just a bit"?

Tell me something. If all the countries you listed have such fantastic health care systems then why do so many people come to the United States for treatment? Is there any other country you would rather have medical treatment besides here?

B/c the US has the finest emergency healthcare in the world.  The US stinks at preventive healthcare.  PHC is much more cost efficient than EHC.  Why wait for that pain in one's side to become cancer?

Preventive healthcare is where the US ranks right behind the Isle of Togo.