Author Topic: Cesar Millan / Training Shows  (Read 9501 times)

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Cesar Millan / Training Shows
« on: June 27, 2007, 12:12:07 PM »
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL


 On one of my groups some body posted that they knew of 2 dogs that were sent to Cesar and they did not come home alive.  And supposedly a tv producer is suing him for injuries his dog suffered while being trained by Cesar.

 Someone else posted that his shows are carefully edited but if you watch them in slow motion you can see him gut kick the dogs as he is walking them and other things off to the side while you are distracted watching somewhere else on the screen.   I am going to watch a few of his shows and see if I catch anything. 

  That article I posted makes some good points on Cesar's training methods.  I used to like his show but now I wonder what is the point of a dog training show that tells you "not to try this yourself"?    :-\   

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 12:37:23 PM »
Pack of Lies
By MARK DERR

Miami Beach

WITH a compelling personal story as the illegal immigrant made good because of his uncanny ability to understand dogs, Cesar Millan has taken the world of canine behavior — or rather misbehavior — by storm. He has the top-rated program, “Dog Whisperer,” on the National Geographic Channel, a best-selling book and a devoted following, and he has been the subject of several glowing magazine articles.

He is even preparing to release his own “Illusion” collar and leash set, named for his wife and designed to better allow people to walk their dogs the “Cesar way” — at close heel, under strict control.

Essentially, National Geographic and Cesar Millan have cleverly repackaged and promoted a simplistic view of the dog’s social structure and constructed around it a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach to dog training. In Mr. Millan’s world, dog behavioral problems result from a failure of the human to be the “pack leader,” to dominate the dog (a wolf by any other name) completely.

While Mr. Millan rejects hitting and yelling at dogs during training, his confrontational methods include physical and psychological intimidation, like finger jabs, choke collars, extended sessions on a treadmill and what is called flooding, or overwhelming the animal with the thing it fears. Compared with some training devices still in use — whips and cattle prods, for example — these are mild, but combined with a lack of positive reinforcement or rewards, they place Mr. Millan firmly in a long tradition of punitive dog trainers.

Mr. Millan brings his pastiche of animal behaviorism and pop psychology into millions of homes a week. He’s a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs, which have led to seeing each dog as an individual, to understand what motivates it, what frightens it and what its talents and limitations are. Building on strengths and working around and through weaknesses, these trainers and specialists in animal behavior often work wonders with their dogs, but it takes time.

Mr. Millan supposedly delivers fast results. His mantra is “exercise, discipline, affection,” where discipline means “rules, boundaries, limitations.” Rewards are absent and praise scarce, presumably because they will upset the state of calm submission Mr. Millan wants in his dogs. Corrections abound as animals are forced to submit or face their fear, even if doing so panics them.

Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog’s “natural” pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan’s intervention doesn’t produce lasting results, it is the owner’s fault.)

Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”

Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated.

The notion of the “alpha pack leader” dominating all other pack members is derived from studies of captive packs of unrelated wolves and thus bears no relationship to the social structure of natural packs, according to L. David Mech, one of the world’s leading wolf experts. In the wild, the alpha wolves are merely the breeding pair, and the pack is generally comprised of their juvenile offspring and pups.

“The typical wolf pack,” Dr. Mech wrote in The Canadian Journal of Zoology in 1999, “is a family, with the adult parents guiding the activities of a group in a division-of-labor system.” In a natural wolf pack, “dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all,” he writes.

That’s a far cry from the dominance model that Mr. Millan attributes to the innate need of dogs by way of wolves.

Unlike their wolf forebears, dogs exist in human society. They have been selectively bred for 15,000 or more years to live with people. Studies have shown that almost from birth they are attentive to people, and that most are eager to please, given proper instruction and encouragement.

But sometimes the relationship goes very wrong, and it is time to call on a professional.

Aggression is perhaps the most significant of the behavioral problems that may afflict more than 20 percent of the nation’s 65 million dogs, because it can lead to injury and death. Mr. Millan often treats aggression by forcing the dog to exercise extensively on a treadmill, by asserting his authority over the dog by rolling it on its back in the “alpha rollover,” and through other forms of intimidation, including exposure to his pack of dogs.

Forcefully rolling a big dog on its back was once recommended as a way to establish dominance, but it is now recognized as a good way to get bitten. People are advised not to try it. In fact, many animal behaviorists believe that in the long run meeting aggression with aggression breeds more aggression.

More important, aggression often has underlying medical causes that might not be readily apparent — hip dysplasia or some other hidden physical ailment that causes the dog to bite out of pain; hereditary forms of sudden rage that require a medical history and genealogy to diagnose; inadequate blood flow to the brain or a congenital brain malformation that produces aggression and can only be uncovered through a medical examination. Veterinary behaviorists, having found that many aggressive dogs suffer from low levels of serotonin, have had success in treating such dogs with fluoxetine (the drug better known as Prozac).

Properly treating aggression, phobias, anxiety and fears from the start can literally save time and money. Mr. Millan’s quick fix might make for good television and might even produce lasting results in some cases. But it flies in the face of what professional animal behaviorists — either trained and certified veterinarians or ethologists — have learned about normal and abnormal behavior in dogs.

Mark Derr is the author of “A Dog’s History of America: How Our Best Friend Explored, Conquered and Settled a Continent.”

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 12:39:36 PM »
Cesar Millan Sued

The San Jose Mercury News reported today that television producer Flody Suarez is suing Cesar Millan, of National Geographic channel's "The Dog Whisperer," for injuries that his dog allegedly sustained while having some behavioral problems "dealt with" at Millan's training facility. The workers in the suit are accused of placing a choke collar on the dog and overworking him on a treadmill. According to Suarez, he later found his dog, Gator, "bleeding from his mouth and nose, in an oxygen tent gasping for breath and with severe bruising to his back inner thighs."

And if you still think Cesar Millan is a good trainer, be sure to check out Pat Miller's review of his new book in the current issue of Bark magazine. If injuries and lawsuits aren't enough to convince anyone, Miller provides a clear-eyed critique of Millan's technique that dispels the myth that Millan's training techniques are safe or effective.



Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer
Posted 5/5/2006 10:33 AM ET
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A television producer is suing dog trainer Cesar Millan, star of TV's The Dog Whisperer, claiming that his Labrador retriever was injured at Millan's training facility after being suffocated by a choke collar and forced to run on a treadmill.

In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, 8 Simple Rules producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers.

Hours after dropping the dog off at the facility, Suarez claimed a worker called to inform him the animal had been rushed to a veterinarian. He later found the dog "bleeding from his mouth and nose, in an oxygen tent gasping for breath and with severe bruising to his back inner thighs," the lawsuit claims.

The facility's workers allegedly placed a choke collar on the dog, pulled him onto a treadmill and forced him to "overwork." Suarez says he spent at least $25,000 on medical bills and the dog must undergo more surgeries for damage to his esophagus.

A call to the Dog Psychology Center, also named as a defendant, was not immediately returned. A spokesman for National Geographic Channel, which airs Millan's show, declined comment.

"As of this time, the National Geographic Channel has not been served with either lawsuit, and we do not comment on pending litigation," said Russell Howard, the channel's vice president of communications.

The complaint claims breach of contract, fraud, animal cruelty and intentional infliction of emotional distress, among other allegations. It seeks more than $25,000 in damages.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 12:47:25 PM »
More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal

The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.

Here are my qualifications for talking about Cesar Millan’s methods: I have watched several episodes of his show, and I read the interview in the Times last Sunday. Some fan of his is going to post and say I’m insufficiently familiar with the man’s oeuvre, but sorry, I didn’t have to eat the whole salad to know that large parts of it were very, very bad.

Here are the things I do like: Yes, it’s important for dogs to get adequate exercise—most of them don’t. Yes, the suburban backyard is a jail cell for a dog. Yes, it’s good to act calm around a fearful dog. And yes, everyone living in a household has to know what the rules are for that household, and that includes the dogs.

Also, the one really good thing Millan does, as someone who works with dog behavior on TV, is get across the message that behavior can be changed. I cringe when a client asks me about Millan’s methods, but maybe that client wouldn’t have called a behavior counselor if he hadn’t seen CM on TV.

But that’s it. Apart from what I’ve cited above, Millan, as a behavior expert, seems to be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

That Times interview. Does Millan know that dogs probably evolved as semi-solitary scavengers in the vicinity of human settlements? “In the natural dog world, the dog is always behind the pack leader.” Oh pull-eaze! The closest thing to the “natural dog world” today, if prevailing scientific theory is correct, is probably a Third World village, and you can see for yourself in any such place that the dogs travel kinda sorta together but often alone, in a very loose way, basically focusing on whatever piece of garbage they can find to eat. I don’t know where he got that “90 miles a day” thing, either. These are skinny dogs hanging around the dump, or the tourist restaurant; it would be astonishing if they traveled 20 miles a day, let alone 90. To what purpose? They can’t afford that kind of energy expenditure, for pete’s sake.

And am I really supposed to believe that when my dogs and I are taking the same boring last-pee-before-bedtime walk around the block that we take every single night, and they walk ahead of me, it’s because they’re staging a palace coup, not because they … um … know exactly where we’re all going? We’re on a country hike, my dog-who-loves-to-swim realizes we’re getting near the creek and pelts ahead of me to jump in. Whoops, was that my pack leadership going by? Or was he just excited about getting in the water?

Science isn’t the only thing missing here—a little common sense might come in handy too.

As for the TV show—I’ll just talk about one episode:  the Great Dane afraid of shiny floors. Yes, Millan succeeded in getting the dog to walk tractably on shiny linoleum floors, and he did it by inducing what’s called learned helplessness. He dragged the dog onto the linoleum and kept him there. The dog's efforts to escape did not work, and the dog gave up. That is learned helplessness. It’s not the same thing as being comfortable and relaxed. At the end, the Dane’s tail is down, his head is down, and he is drooling profusely. For those who have eyes to see, he’s a picture of fear and misery.

Sadly, his guardian had had the right idea:  she was laying down carpet runner for the dog to walk on. I would have started exactly the same way, and when he was comfortable walking down the hall, left a little gap of linoleum, small enough so he could step over it. And slowly the gap would have grown. I would have put Musher’s Wax on the dog’s paws so as to be sure he had traction: remember, he was afraid of shiny floors because he’d taken a bad spill on one. The hallway would be a place of fun with his guardian and chicken treats.

I’m sure this would have taken longer than Millan’s method, but at the end the dog would have been walking happily and confidently, not hanging his head and drooling.

And that’s the trouble with Cesar Millan. He’s got a hammer—the dominance idea—and he thinks everything he sees is a nail. He’s constantly forcing what needs to be gentled along. And it’s all very well overpowering dogs when you work out every day and have a Y chromosome on board, but what is my five-foot female client with two little kids supposed to do? What about the elderly man with a brand-new hip? What if you are a man who works out every day but you don’t enjoy physical confrontation as a way of life? What are you supposed to do then?

Call a clicker trainer.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »
I didn't see the show that last article mentions about the Dane.  I think that would of pissed me off!!   Emmett will start drooling if he is nervous or excited, Addie doesn't but she is not as sensitive as Emmett is either.  To see that dog being held there frightened and drooling, if that had been my dog I would had Cesar eating linoleum!!    >:(

  I started off this thread thinking he had some bad points, but might not be as bad as some make him out to be, but as I read more and more I think his methods are cruel and could make matters worse.


   Considering I have so far made all the posts in this thread - meltdown   ::)

 

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 01:04:06 AM »
Amy... I don't know who's method is right.

I rescued "Dusty" out of an alley last year. He was hungry and abandoned. It was clear after a week as to why. He had some behavior problems around children. I'm sure soemone just escorted him out the door. I went to Petco and took him through private training. He was a completly changed dog after two sessions ans two morre weeks of me working with him. Now he lives in a Mansion in Palos Verdes, CA with a terrific family. Rags to riches.

This is a chilling statement from the article you posted about Ian Dunnar"

"Without training, the life of a puppy is predictable: chewing, soiling the house, digging up the garden, followed by a trip to the shelter where, if it's lucky, it gets another try," he says, wearily. "Without training, that dog will be dead in less than a year."



 
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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 01:53:37 AM »
Many of the professional trainers and behavioralists out there do not approve of his methods  :-\
:

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 03:15:13 AM »
Many of the professional trainers and behavioralists out there do not approve of his methods  :-\

Yeah but they are all protecting their income right so that is to be expected...



His show doesn't get air time over here in The Netherlands so i can only speak of what i see from him occasionally on The Oprah Winfrey show.
What he does on that show is something i can stand behind and i don't see something out of the ordinarie?... ???
?

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 06:18:40 AM »
I agree with some of what he says, being calm and assertive for one.  The exercise & training that he pushes.   And I know some of the dogs he has worked with were Red Zone cases, they were in danger of being put down because of some aggression issues.  I can see how just reward training may not work for those dogs.  But to take a dog that afraid of something and then physically force him to be in that situation (flooding they call it) I think is not right.  One dog was afraid of the pool, so he threw him in.  How many kids have been taught to swim by that method and HATED it? Why would a dog be different?  Besides who cares if the dog doesn't want to go in the pool?  Do you need your dog in the pool for some reason?    Or the dane who was afraid of the shiny floor because he had had a bad slip on one before.  So you force the dog onto the floor and hold him there til he basically is mentally beat down?  Why?  Put a fricken rug down for him to walk on! Neither dog now associates those things with good, they just have been cowed into dealing with it.   What other problems will this bring up later on?  Fear towards other new things? 

   Emmett is afraid of stairs with lots of steps.  With his long legs and weak knee he has slipped down my upstairs before, not nice or fun and dangerous.  He would however, go up them.  Not thinking that if he went up them, he would have to come back down them.  ::)  He only did that about once or twice after his initial slide down them, and both times it was very hard to get him back down.  I would have to put a collar on him, and physically get him up and start moving down the steps.  I didn't yell or shove him down the steps, and I stood right next to him holding him so if a foot slipped I had him, which he did slip and he knew I was there.   Would Cesar's method have been to just grab him by the collar and drag him down the steps with no support for him? 

  I don't agree with his dog must always be slightly behind you and to your side on walks either.  Dogs want to sniff and explore a bit.  They should be under control and not dragging you all over the sidewalk, but I think staying at my side, head up, is a bit much.  They are excited at the start of the walk, but they calm down pretty quick.  The purpose of a walk is exercise, but also stimulation for them, which for a dog is smelling.  Each dog is different, Briona could almost go a whole walk with her nose to the ground like she's tracking, whereas the others vary head up and sniffing. 

  I did come across a letter that was sent complaining that his show was labeled "G" for all audiences, meaning suitable for kids to watch without their parents.  They said it should be changed because what if a 5 year old attempts an alpha roll or something?  I mean how many times has he gotten bit?

  And I wonder how many of those dogs he cured he really did?  Or were they cowed into submission to him, but then got aggressive when the owners tried it later on?

  You are right about this Dave:
 
"Without training, the life of a puppy is predictable: chewing, soiling the house, digging up the garden, followed by a trip to the shelter where, if it's lucky, it gets another try," he says, wearily. "Without training, that dog will be dead in less than a year."


  That is why I think education is important to make available to people. Their will always be stupid people though.  I have heard so many stories of people turning in Danes because "they got too big" or "eats too much".  WTF?  It's a Great Dane!!   What did you expect!!    Or they don't expect a puppy or a kitten to do anything destructive and to be perfect from day one.  ::)   People don't bother to research the breed, "he just is so hyper and needs so much exercise", then you should of gotten a more suitable breed.   There are some interactive sites (I think the AKC might have one and petfinder?) where you answer questions based on lifestyle etc., and then it lists some breeds that might be for you. People need to research the breeds, and not just pick one for it's looks or because someone else has one.  Read it's temperaments, exercise needs, good and safe around kids (the dog being safe too), etc.  Learn about the dog and what to expect.  Pets are considered disposable to to many people.  Then don't get one!!  Go visit your friend who has one, or volunteer at a shelter if you don't want to commit.  "Borrow" a dog for a week or so and see how it changes your everyday life.  (I have offered to rent out mine!! lololz  ;D)

  If you get a pet, you better expect and be prepared for some damage to your property especially if it is a puppy or kitten, and to revolve your life around it.  If not, then don't get one.   Get a nice plant.
   :)
   

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 06:27:40 AM »
I think each dog is an individual case.  Some dogs are very food motivated or are very eager to please their "master" so harsh or punishment methods aren't needed and wouldn't work. 

  I do know that if he used some of his methods on my Emmett, he would mentally destroy him.  I don't think a dog should be "spirit broken" and consider that a training accomplishment. 

  And I know that I let or have let, my dogs get away with more than most people would allow them too.   But as the pack grew  ::) I realized that that would have to change a bit for everyone's sake.  I am still more lenient than I could be, but we have a much better household and I can walk all 4 dogs together, something I thought would of been impossible months ago.   I actually get people complimenting me on how well behaved and trained they are!!  LOL!   They should see them at home!!   ;D

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 06:46:52 AM »
Dave- Dusty is adorable and great job!!   I'm glad you were able to find him a great home where he can be loved.   :)

 When I took in Addie she was a rescue and the original plan was to get her healthy then find her a forever home and then maybe take in another dog.

  Well she's still here!!   ::)    I am not a very good foster because I have a hard time letting them go.    I have no room to take in any fosters now.  A guy at work mentioned to me a chi that is not in a good home and the lady asked if he wanted to buy it but he doesn't want another dog so he asked me.  I told him no, I couldn't add another dog at this time, but if the dog was in an abusive home if the woman would relinquish her I would take her in and find her a good home.  I guess the husband drinks and isn't very nice to the 8mo dog.   I doubt she will just let the dog go, but I can't afford to buy dogs and rehab them and find them a home which could take some time (I would be very very picky).  I've had other people tell me about Danes people are looking to get rid off too.  Makes me sad I can't take them all.
  :(

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 11:02:08 AM »
I think each dog is an individual case.  Some dogs are very food motivated or are very eager to please their "master" so harsh or punishment methods aren't needed and wouldn't work. 

 

Yup.  I'm a fan of operant conditioning ("Clicker training") but its primarily because of the species I work with and the need to capture desired behaviors.  I also think positive reinforcement will go much, much further because it breeds a desire within the animal to do a behavior.  You can't force a positively reinforced behavior as far as I'm concerned. 


All of that said, I think it is worthwhile to at least pay a bit of attention to some of what Cesar is saying.  Some of it---like the use of exercise is right on.  Others really depends on the dog AND the owner.  For some dogs and some owners, using his ideas may work very well.  For others, it simply won't. 

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 12:44:06 PM »
One thing I would like to mention....is being firm & assertive.  Most people think that means Yelling & being Physical.  I have found even with myself...when I am calm & speak in a even solid tone...the dog responds accordingly.

I can remember when I was a kid & my father had a friend that was always yelling at his dogs.  You would think the dogs were deaf because they never did a damn thing he wanted them to unless he smacked them around.  My dog on the other hand (even though I was a kid) made it seem like I had my dog professionally trained.  I did nothing other than be calm, patient, & gave her a set of good examples.  She was eager to please.  She just wanted to be loved back & shown respect.  I do believe it's important to be the one in charge or "alpha" as most refer it.  Making sure the dog know who's making the decisions...who's to lead...& who is to follow.  But dogs also need to be shown respect.  My father's friend would yell...my dog wouldn't do anything but go in the opposite direction.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 01:01:01 PM »
Dave- Dusty is adorable and great job!!   I'm glad you were able to find him a great home where he can be loved.   :)

 When I took in Addie she was a rescue and the original plan was to get her healthy then find her a forever home and then maybe take in another dog.

  Well she's still here!!   ::)    I am not a very good foster because I have a hard time letting them go.    I have no room to take in any fosters now.  A guy at work mentioned to me a chi that is not in a good home and the lady asked if he wanted to buy it but he doesn't want another dog so he asked me.  I told him no, I couldn't add another dog at this time, but if the dog was in an abusive home if the woman would relinquish her I would take her in and find her a good home.  I guess the husband drinks and isn't very nice to the 8mo dog.   I doubt she will just let the dog go, but I can't afford to buy dogs and rehab them and find them a home which could take some time (I would be very very picky).  I've had other people tell me about Danes people are looking to get rid off too.  Makes me sad I can't take them all.
  :(

Thanks Amy... fostering is a mindset... I'm not going to tell you it's easy to let go. Damn... if I had a nickel for every foster I hated to say goodbye to. When you go in, you go in knowing that you have to love them enough to say goodbye when you find a good home. Otherwise... they'd be dead or out on the street.

I've fostered 2 dogs and maybe 150 cat/kittens. All got good homes. I'm not sure about the pitbull we "fostered". I put that in quotes because we couldn't risk bringing him around my cats. We got him into a doggy day care. They worked with him and got him into a cell dog program where the inmates of a prison works with a trainer to rehab the dog. We weren't allowed to follow-up to know what happened. At least he got a fighting chance.

Good job on Addie.
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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 01:05:21 PM »
One thing I would like to mention....is being firm & assertive.  Most people think that means Yelling & being Physical.  I have found even with myself...when I am calm & speak in a even solid tone...the dog responds accordingly.

I can remember when I was a kid & my father had a friend that was always yelling at his dogs.  You would think the dogs were deaf because they never did a damn thing he wanted them to unless he smacked them around.  My dog on the other hand (even though I was a kid) made it seem like I had my dog professionally trained.  I did nothing other than be calm, patient, & gave her a set of good examples.  She was eager to please.  She just wanted to be loved back & shown respect.  I do believe it's important to be the one in charge or "alpha" as most refer it.  Making sure the dog know who's making the decisions...who's to lead...& who is to follow.  But dogs also need to be shown respect.  My father's friend would yell...my dog wouldn't do anything but go in the opposite direction.

Great post... firm but with love and respect. Hmmmm what a concept. I'd guess that would work well with children? Sounds like even as a kid you had more sense than your dad's friend. I'm guessing your dad was a great example for you... a good role model? 
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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 01:40:18 PM »
Great post... firm but with love and respect. Hmmmm what a concept. I'd guess that would work well with children? Sounds like even as a kid you had more sense than your dad's friend. I'm guessing your dad was a great example for you... a good role model? 


He must of been...now that you say that....my father was/is the same way with animals.

When I stop & think about it...he did teach me a lot about dogs.  We raised labs for hunting.


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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 05:15:35 PM »
Cesar Millan is a voice of reason.

One can only hope he will be followed by many others, treating dogs like animals instead of some replacement babies.

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knny187

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2007, 06:24:12 PM »
Cesar Millan is a voice of reason.

One can only hope he will be followed by many others, treating dogs like animals instead of some replacement babies.

-Hedge

replacement babies?

Hmmm...I know alot of pet owners that have kids.  I was a child raised in a house full of kids & animals.  From what I could tell, my parents had the animals for a lot of reasons (security (dogs), rodent control (felines)canine/feline companionship, teaching their kids responsibility, teaching the kids respect for human nature, teaching their kids how to be socialized with animals, etc... 
I could go on & on.  I know too many people (I see it daily) that are terrified...yes terrified of dogs.  I walk down the street with the dog & they literally cross the street to walk on the other side.  They did this when the little guy was a 20lb puppy chasing a butterfly.  I had people scream "oh shit...dog!".  Why do you think people are terrified of animals?  Well, simply because they were never socialized with them.  In another words...a lack of education because they read something on the internet & have no on hand experience (hedgehog).  Sure does make them foolish seeing them running like prey across the street from a puppy.  Yup...we walk on two legs...but it doesn't always mean you're the highest evolved species on that sidewalk.
I can also say....it was me (at 10 years old) that wanted a dog.  I had friends that I hung out with (rode dirtbikes, atv's, snowmobiles, bicycles, campouts, etc... I didn't need to have another "friend"....I wanted a canine friend as well.  She ended up being extremely loyal & never left my side.  Sometimes that aint half bad.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2007, 06:09:48 AM »
Cesar Millan is a voice of reason.

One can only hope he will be followed by many others, treating dogs like animals instead of some replacement babies.

-Hedge

   People have passions for things they like.   What is so different about a person loving animals and their pets, than someone obsessed with motorcycles, cars, music or even porn?  ::)     The one that involves contact with something living and breathing and that can choose to give something back is the odd passion?   8)

   Ask people who they think is the "off" person.  The person who loves their pets albeit maybe a bit over the top, or the guy that is a walking pornography encyclopedia?
  8)

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2007, 08:53:05 AM »
The porn person sounds like he has more unstable or insecure issues.

Probably was sexually abused as a child & trying to fill some kind of void.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2007, 07:18:08 AM »
You made a good point knny about kids being terrified of dogs.  My one brothers kids are like that. I am the "animal" person in the family, especially when it comes to dogs, though my dad is dog lover and always had one growing up. 

 I think if the parent is going to be irresponsible with pets (not taking care of them, considering them disposable, etc) then they pass that on to the next generation.  Pets can teach responsibility, compassion, patience and a lot of other things to children if the parents are responsible and lead by example. 

 Even though my parents and family are not really big animal lovers (my parents have 2 cats they do adore and spoil though) when I was a child they did let me have my chameleons, and hamsters, and eventually ferrets that I was responsible for, so they did allow me to have pets and taught me to be responsible for them.

 It is true that most people that are animal lovers are more compassionate in general.   They can teach a lot.

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2007, 09:16:53 AM »
The porn person sounds like he has more unstable or insecure issues.

Probably was sexually abused as a child & trying to fill some kind of void.


Interesting POV's.

What gives you these kinds of ideas? 8)

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2007, 09:49:17 AM »
Interesting POV's.

What gives you these kinds of ideas? 8)

-Hedge

I don't know...let me waffle trough the journals of research performed & pull something out of my ass

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2007, 09:58:03 AM »
have no on hand experience (hedgehog).

Never stated I have no hand on experience of dogs. I've never owned a dog, but I've been around dogs a bit.

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Sure does make them foolish seeing them running like prey across the street from a puppy. 
Interesting to know that you, as a dog owner, look upon these people that way.

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Yup...we walk on two legs...but it doesn't always mean you're the highest evolved species on that sidewalk.
What specimen would be higher evolved than man?

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Cesar Millan
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2007, 11:21:58 AM »

Never stated I have no hand on experience of dogs. I've never owned a dog, but I've been around dogs a bit.

Yeah...I never driven a race car either...but seen them on tv & been around them alot.  I'm sure I can get on the track & easily run them 200+ mph....no problem.


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Interesting to know that you, as a dog owner, look upon these people that way.

No...as a Former Marine....dog owner has nothing to do with it.  I look at the majority of the human race as fat, lazy, prey.

I'll ask my dog...but he'll probably respond that humans are fun, happy, scratch me here....fun, happy, scratch me here


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What specimen would be higher evolved than man?
-Hedge

The ability to walk on two legs & being a human being...doesn't always mean that your at top of the food chain or represent the highest evolution of your species.