Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby

[ieffinhatecardio]

What I find interesting is that people continue to use as examples actions they feel are wrong as justification for the actions of the people they support.  In doing so you actually place the actions of the individuals you support in the category of wrong.  Your essentially saying if this person did that than why cant he do this. 

I don't know if you're specifically referring to me or if you're just using my post to speak in general terms but I don't have a dog in this fight. I think both sides are pathetic. I don't agree with this commutation or the eventual Pardon that will follow but I also don't agree with those shady pardons Clinton handed out, many on the backs of monetary payoffs to Hillary's brother.

[Archer77]

I don't know if you're specifically referring to me or if you're just using my post to speak in general terms but I don't have a dog in this fight. I think both sides are pathetic. I don't agree with this commutation or the eventual Pardon that will follow but I also don't agree with those shady pardons Clinton handed out, many on the backs of monetary payoffs to Hillary's brother.

no no man, I was just speaking in generalities.  I don't have a dog in this fight either.  I don't think political parties should be followed with the loyalty one applies to their home town sports team.  Once you do that you've lost all objectivity.  I am pretty distrustful of politicians as a group whether they be liberal or conservative but there are points from each side that I tend to agree with.

[Archer77]

How so?  The time to make a deal was before he was convicted and sentenced.  The prosecutors can't do anything more to Libby. 

Libby was going to be granted immunity for any testimony he would have given in order to avoid serving his sentence.  He was offered by Fitzgerald have been able to speak freely about who else  might have possibly been the prime movers who  initiated the leaking of the CIA agent in the first place....(Rove/Cheney and  possibly even the President might have had knowledge)  Now that his sentence has been commuted there is no incentive for him to talk. That is how cases such as these operate. The sentence was just reviewed and considered appropriate so it was necessary for the pardon to take place no other time than  now or he would have been forced to begin serving his sentence.


Also something that no  one is considering is the words of the President himself who said the prosecution and verdict were legitimate.  If they were legitimate then why reduce the sentence when the sentence was clearly within reasonable limits of the law. In fact the punishment was in direct sync with previous cases where the sentencing was identical or nearly identical.  I have no vested interested in this other than to argue that this case should be examined based on the case itself and not through the lenses of partisan politics.

[trab]

Basically I see it as Bush pardoning himself.

[Archer77]

libby was framed by the liberals.

Man, that makes so much more sense.  Damn Liberals.

[Dos Equis]

Libby was going to be granted immunity for any testimony he would have given in order to avoid serving his sentence.  He was offered by Fitzgerald have been able to speak freely about who else  might have possibly been the prime movers who  initiated the leaking of the CIA agent in the first place....(Rove/Cheney and  possibly even the President might have had knowledge)  Now that his sentence has been commuted there is no incentive for him to talk. That is how cases such as these operate. The sentence was just reviewed and considered appropriate so it was necessary for the pardon to take place no other time than  now or he would have been forced to begin serving his sentence.


Also something that no  one is considering is the words of the President himself who said the prosecution and verdict were legitimate.  If they were legitimate then why reduce the sentence when the sentence was clearly within reasonable limits of the law. In fact the punishment was in direct sync with previous cases where the sentencing was identical or nearly identical.  I have no vested interested in this other than to argue that this case should be examined based on the case itself and not through the lenses of partisan politics.

You sure about that?  Doesn't sound right.  After the guy is convicted and sentenced the prosecutor is pretty much out of the picture.  I don't think a prosecutor can delay a prison sentence.  That's up to the judge.  Are you getting this from a news story?   

I'm not looking at this from a partisan angle either.  I don't think the guy should have been prosecuted, much less convicted.  Bush ought to just pardon the guy.  I don't see this pardon as any different than Weinberger and all of the other high ranking officials pardoned by Bush Sr., or the all of the people pardoned by Clinton. 

[Camel Jockey]

This pardon is a slap in the face to democracy.

[seauantea]

Leaving aside the gross abuse of executive power, anyone who values free speech should be appalled by this decision. Joe Wilson speaks out against the pre invasion Iraq intelligence (and in retrospect he was 100% correct) and his wife’s career, life and the lives of her colleges are deliberately put in jeopardy by the Bush administration as punishment and to send a clear message to other potential dissenters. It both depresses and sickens me to read many of the brainless members here turning this into a partisan issue; it is not and this is not the conduct of a free and democratic regime, rather the masked actions of a totalitarian and fascist one.

[24KT]

Leaving aside the gross abuse of executive power, anyone who values free speech should be appalled by this decision. Joe Wilson speaks out against the pre invasion Iraq intelligence (and in retrospect he was 100% correct) and his wife’s career, life and the lives of her colleges are deliberately put in jeopardy by the Bush administration as punishment and to send a clear message to other potential dissenters. It both depresses and sickens me to read many of the brainless members here turning this into a partisan issue; it is not and this is not the conduct of a free and democratic regime, rather the masked actions of a totalitarian and fascist one.

“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.”
--Caesar

[Dos Equis]

How terrible.  Nothing like the president exercising powers granted to him in the Constitution, like pardoning Dan Rostenkowski and numerous drug dealers.     

[OzmO]

Has anyone ever considered that regardless of what administration did what, people who should have gone to prison didn't.  this is the case with Libby and many others from other administrations in the past.  This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge.

[Dos Equis]

Has anyone ever considered that regardless of what administration did what, people who should have gone to prison didn't.  this is the case with Libby and many others from other administrations in the past.  This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge.

Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent. 

[OzmO]

Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent. 

he either broke the law or didn't right?    What ever law that maybe, he was found guilty?

[Dos Equis]

he either broke the law or didn't right?    What ever law that maybe, he was found guilty?

Yes he broke the law. 

You said "This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge."  This would ring true if Libby was convicted of outing a covert agent at the president's and/or vice president's direction, which is what this entire investigation/prosecution was all about. 

[OzmO]

Yes he broke the law. 

You said "This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge."  This would ring true if Libby was convicted of outing a covert agent at the president's and/or vice president's direction, which is what this entire investigation/prosecution was all about. 

Maybe in this case no, but there was wrong doing.................  was it solely libby? 

[Dos Equis]

Maybe in this case no, but there was wrong doing.................  was it solely libby? 

Wrongdoing by who?  There was wrongdoing by Libby, but that was lying and obstruction of justice.  No one has been charged with outing a covert agent.  I think if the pardon would have came before a trial, then it would not have passed the smell test.  But here you had the prosecutor throwing everything he had at Libby and none of it involved outing a covert agent.  That's the real issue IMO. 

[seauantea]

I suppose Libby was lying for the fun of it and not to protect himself/whoever else from being charged with "outing a covert agent"

[OzmO]

Wrongdoing by who?  There was wrongdoing by Libby, but that was lying and obstruction of justice.  No one has been charged with outing a covert agent.  I think if the pardon would have came before a trial, then it would not have passed the smell test.  But here you had the prosecutor throwing everything he had at Libby and none of it involved outing a covert agent.  That's the real issue IMO. 

I agree.  But if he didn't out the agent where does the obstruction and lying issues come from?  It might very be that they weren't able to prove something that happened.   i realize that's all speculation but, had he been found guilty my assertion would apply as it still does indirectly in this case.  Presidential pardons for the right reasons make sense.  Pardons to help those in your administration who were found guilty for something isn't good IMO.   That goes for any and all administrations.   

[Colossus_500]

I would be nice to see the president pardon the two border patrol agents who were sentenced to hard prison time by the witness of a known drug-dealer who was also illegally in the country. 

[trab]

I would be nice to see the president pardon the two border patrol agents who were sentenced to hard prison time by the witness of a known drug-dealer who was also illegally in the country. 

There's somthing funny there Huh? Can you say well connected Drug Dealers w/ somthing on sombody?

[Dos Equis]

I agree.  But if he didn't out the agent where does the obstruction and lying issues come from?  It might very be that they weren't able to prove something that happened.   i realize that's all speculation but, had he been found guilty my assertion would apply as it still does indirectly in this case.  Presidential pardons for the right reasons make sense.  Pardons to help those in your administration who were found guilty for something isn't good IMO.   That goes for any and all administrations.   

Well, I don't know what the precise lie was, but we know he wasn't convicted of lying about whether or not he outed a covert agent.  Sounds like he was just stupid.  

I agree that pardons involving members of the president's administration can be problematic, but Ford pardoned Nixon, Bush Sr. pardoned a former defense secretary and many others, Clinton pardoned scumbags that included a former Democrat Congressman.  I bet governors have done the same.  

[Decker]

Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent. 

Thanks to Libby's obstruction of justice, we'll never get to the bottom of this case.

And for those of you comparing Clinton's pardons to this commutation, stop it.  The two are completely different.  A more apt comparision would be with this:
BUSH PARDONS WEINBERGER, FIVE OTHERS TIED TO IRAN-CONTRA
http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm

The two are comparable b/c in both instances--the pardon & commutation--the presidents (both named Bush) were insulating themselves and their administrations from any wrongdoing by pardoning/commuting the felon(s).

Bush commuted the sentence of a felon who has concrete ties to the whitehouse and whose crime likely insulated his superiors (including Bush) from further investigation or accountability.

If you pro-libby folks thought this out, you'd realize that precedent like this would make organized crime untouchable.

All you gotta do is have a fall-guy lie to the cops and pervert the course of justice.  Gotti was rarely the murderer--but he gave the orders for others to do his bidding.

With Libby's help, the burying of the crime of exposing a covert WMD spy in a time of war has been accomplished.

Nobody should be patting themselves on the back over that.

[ieffinhatecardio]

Thanks to Libby's obstruction of justice, we'll never get to the bottom of this case.

And for those of you comparing Clinton's pardons to this commutation, stop it.  The two are completely different.  A more apt comparision would be with this:
BUSH PARDONS WEINBERGER, FIVE OTHERS TIED TO IRAN-CONTRA
http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm

The two are comparable b/c in both instances--the pardon & commutation--the presidents (both named Bush) were insulating themselves and their administrations from any wrongdoing by pardoning/commuting the felon(s).

Bush commuted the sentence of a felon who has concrete ties to the whitehouse and whose crime likely insulated his superiors (including Bush) from further investigation or accountability.

If you pro-libby folks thought this out, you'd realize that precedent like this would make organized crime untouchable.

All you gotta do is have a fall-guy lie to the cops and pervert the course of justice.  Gotti was rarely the murderer--but he gave the orders for others to do his bidding.

With Libby's help, the burying of the crime of exposing a covert WMD spy in a time of war has been accomplished.

Nobody should be patting themselves on the back over that.

I don't think anyone is trying to perform a strict comparison between the pardons of Clinton and Bush. I think the ultimate point is that both made highly questionable decisions in terms of who they pardoned.

The main difference being a few of Clinton's pardons had the stink of monetary payoffs all over them.

[trab]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19675580/

Ya know, it may be impossible to even impeach Bush.
May be necessary for them take him down like Pacino in Scarface even if theyd get a conviction.
He aint just ever gona wave goodby and hop on the bird like Tricky Dick. No.. No.. No.
There is such a thing as too much balls.
He's over the line.

[Decker]

I don't think anyone is trying to perform a strict comparison between the pardons of Clinton and Bush. I think the ultimate point is that both made highly questionable decisions in terms of who they pardoned.

The main difference being a few of Clinton's pardons had the stink of monetary payoffs all over them.

Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.

Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.

And besides, who cares what Clinton did?  The 1990s are over...have been for years.

So much for Bush restoring honor and integrity to the whitehouse...the best some people have to offer is, "oh yeah, well Clinton did it too!"...which he didn't, as I pointed out.