Author Topic: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby  (Read 9004 times)

trab

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2007, 12:58:24 PM »
Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.

Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.



Thats the whole point. Bush is above the Law as far as he's concerned.

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2007, 01:20:00 PM »
Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.

Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.

And besides, who cares what Clinton did?  The 1990s are over...have been for years.

So much for Bush restoring honor and integrity to the whitehouse...the best some people have to offer is, "oh yeah, well Clinton did it too!"...which he didn't, as I pointed out.

Is it common practice for Presidents to pardon people after payments have been made to that President's brother-in-law? I don't remember such a scandal surrounding any other Presidents.

Anyone that thought Bush/Cheney was going to restore honor and integrity into the White House probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy. He's a disgrace and at this point nearly everyone (a few diehard neotaints notwithstanding) admits it.

Regarding caring about Clinton, ultimately I don't but if certain Liberals/Democrats are going to criticize Bush for his shady commutations/pardons then they should also be ready to criticize Clinton for his as well.

My real point is that the last two Presidents have handed down shady/unethical pardons, the degree to which they were unethical can be debated.

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2007, 01:45:16 PM »
How can anyone compare this pardon to Clinton's?  :-\

The fact is that this was blanet abuse of power, regardless of whether it was completely legal or not. Just because someone has the power to lay a killer off the hook doesn't mean he should.

Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2007, 02:03:29 PM »
Is it common practice for Presidents to pardon people after payments have been made to that President's brother-in-law? I don't remember such a scandal surrounding any other Presidents.

Anyone that thought Bush/Cheney was going to restore honor and integrity into the White House probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy. He's a disgrace and at this point nearly everyone (a few diehard neotaints notwithstanding) admits it.

Regarding caring about Clinton, ultimately I don't but if certain Liberals/Democrats are going to criticize Bush for his shady commutations/pardons then they should also be ready to criticize Clinton for his as well.

My real point is that the last two Presidents have handed down shady/unethical pardons, the degree to which they were unethical can be debated.
Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation.  The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.

Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?

Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved.  What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration.  For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that. 

So I don't think Clinton is germane.

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2007, 02:22:59 PM »
Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation.  The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.

Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?

Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved.  What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration.  For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that. 

So I don't think Clinton is germane.

Decker I think your point would carry more weight of the pardon was issued before a public trial.  There is no cover up here.  No new facts were going to come out during Libby's appeal.

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2007, 02:24:55 PM »
How can anyone compare this pardon to Clinton's?  :-\

The fact is that this was blanet abuse of power, regardless of whether it was completely legal or not. Just because someone has the power to lay a killer off the hook doesn't mean he should.

I'm sure out the 141 pardons he gave in the last 9 days of his presidency, some can be compared ::)!!

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2007, 02:50:03 PM »
I'm sure out the 141 pardons he gave in the last 9 days of his presidency, some can be compared ::)!!

Find them then and see if they were in any way comprable to the Libby one..

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2007, 04:38:08 PM »
Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation.  The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.

Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?

Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved.  What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration.  For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that. 

So I don't think Clinton is germane.

I agree, they are irrelevant. I commented on Clinton's pardons because HH6 posted a list of them.

I don't agree with Bush's commutation in this instance and I won't agree with the pardon that will follow. I have lost all faith in Bush/Cheney so please don't interpret any of my posts as a defense of this Administration.

I have read about certain pardons that I thought were righteous, pardons I wouldn't have voted against if given the chance. This one doesn't fall under that category.



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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2007, 10:52:37 PM »
Find them then and see if they were in any way comprable to the Libby one..

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm


Hope this helps!!

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Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2007, 03:23:22 AM »
Decker I think your point would carry more weight of the pardon was issued before a public trial.  There is no cover up here.  No new facts were going to come out during Libby's appeal.
Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case.  He was not cooperating with the authorities.  All he had to do was wait for his bosses to fix it for him and all interested parties would be served well.  And that's what happened.

If you do not see a quid pro quo here, then you are not looking.

Libby lied and is continuing to lie and cover up the identity of the source of the leak.

There is a cover up here.  Libby was successful in obstructing the investigation and Bush rewarded him with a commutation.  It is that simple.

There was a treasonous crime of outing a US covert spy during a time of war and no one has been held accountable for that crime.

No one.

Just remember the testimony of convicted felon I. Libby:

Libby Says Bush Authorized Leaks
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0406nj1.htm

So the next time you hear Bush chastising those who leaked the information, remember you're being served a steaming pile of criminal conspiracy.

Pointing that out and proving it are two different matters and this administration is superb at covering its ass when the law has been broken or skirted.

Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2007, 03:24:04 AM »

Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2007, 09:29:45 AM »
Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case.  He was not cooperating with the authorities.  All he had to do was wait for his bosses to fix it for him and all interested parties would be served well.  And that's what happened.

If you do not see a quid pro quo here, then you are not looking.

Libby lied and is continuing to lie and cover up the identity of the source of the leak.

There is a cover up here.  Libby was successful in obstructing the investigation and Bush rewarded him with a commutation.  It is that simple.

There was a treasonous crime of outing a US covert spy during a time of war and no one has been held accountable for that crime.

No one.

Just remember the testimony of convicted felon I. Libby:

Libby Says Bush Authorized Leaks
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0406nj1.htm

So the next time you hear Bush chastising those who leaked the information, remember you're being served a steaming pile of criminal conspiracy.

Pointing that out and proving it are two different matters and this administration is superb at covering its ass when the law has been broken or skirted.

Sounds like a whole lot of assumptions to me.  The cover up argument really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because, like you said, "Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case."  He had nothing more to lose.  He had a public trial.  He couldn't make any kind of deal with the prosecutor.  That time was gone. 

Also, keep in mind every major Republican presidential candidate said Libby should be pardoned. 

Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2007, 09:43:12 AM »
Sounds like a whole lot of assumptions to me.  The cover up argument really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because, like you said, "Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case."  He had nothing more to lose.  He had a public trial.  He couldn't make any kind of deal with the prosecutor.  That time was gone. 

Also, keep in mind every major Republican presidential candidate said Libby should be pardoned. 
I don't understand your statement that Libby had nothing more to lose--he lost 30 months of freedom and things could only look up for him by keeping his mouth shut.  Please recall that in the beginning of the trial, Libby was flat out saying that the Bush whitehouse was a player in the leak.  Then 1/2 through the case, he clammed up.  Libby would not cooperate with the prosecution to make a deal.

He was continuing to obstruct the investigation.

Somebody leaked Plame's identity and it wasn't Armitage.

So we have a crime without a criminal?  I don't think so.  Thanks to Libby, we may never know.

The Coach

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2007, 03:41:32 PM »
Irrelevant.

It's irrelevent to you because Clinton is a liberal, but since it was Bush............

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2007, 06:46:09 PM »
I don't understand your statement that Libby had nothing more to lose--he lost 30 months of freedom and things could only look up for him by keeping his mouth shut.  Please recall that in the beginning of the trial, Libby was flat out saying that the Bush whitehouse was a player in the leak.  Then 1/2 through the case, he clammed up.  Libby would not cooperate with the prosecution to make a deal.

He was continuing to obstruct the investigation.

Somebody leaked Plame's identity and it wasn't Armitage.

So we have a crime without a criminal?  I don't think so.  Thanks to Libby, we may never know.

He had nothing more to lose because he has already been tried, convicted, and sentenced.  He couldn't cut a deal with anyone.  Yes he was going to do time, so he would lose his freedom.  But he was already a convicted felon.  What did he need to keep his mouth shut about?  You're assuming he had something to say.  How do you know Libby is the only person who knows how this agent was outed? 

We have an alleged crime and no criminals.  That's why I don't think Libby should go to jail.  The prez should just pardon him and get it over with.   

Decker

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2007, 06:44:57 AM »
He had nothing more to lose because he has already been tried, convicted, and sentenced.  He couldn't cut a deal with anyone.  Yes he was going to do time, so he would lose his freedom.  But he was already a convicted felon.  What did he need to keep his mouth shut about?  You're assuming he had something to say.  How do you know Libby is the only person who knows how this agent was outed? 

We have an alleged crime and no criminals.  That's why I don't think Libby should go to jail.  The prez should just pardon him and get it over with.   
I assume he had something to say b/c he was perjuring himself on material matters and he would not cooperate with prosecutors.

It doesn't matter whether Libby is the only person knowing the identity of the criminal leaker. 

Don't you think that Libby knew that if he kept his mouth shut he would be rewarded by his boss Cheney with at the very least, a commutation of sentence?

Libby is a bright guy and a lawyer--he knows how the game is played.

His status as felon is inconsequential.  Just ask convicted felon Elliot Abrams.  He lied to Congress re Iran Contra and Pres. Bush pardoned him to cover his own ass.

Sound familiar?  Boy it sure runs in the family.  When a tact works, run with it.

Currently Abrams is "Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy"--a very high position in the current Bush administration.  Bush appointed him to the spot.

Or ask John Poindexter another felon convicted of obstructing justice and lying about the Iran Contra affair.  He served as DARPA chief in the current Bush Administration.

Or ask felon Ollie North--he's doing fairly well these days.  Didn't he run for Congress?

So the mere inconvenience of a felony would not likely inhibit Abrams career.

You do see a pattern emerging, right?

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2007, 07:23:05 AM »
Not necessarily.  There are hundreds of sentences commuted and pardons issued every year by governors and the prez.  Not uncommon at all. 
Clinton was the PARDON KING!
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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2007, 10:49:43 AM »
I assume he had something to say b/c he was perjuring himself on material matters and he would not cooperate with prosecutors.

It doesn't matter whether Libby is the only person knowing the identity of the criminal leaker. 

Don't you think that Libby knew that if he kept his mouth shut he would be rewarded by his boss Cheney with at the very least, a commutation of sentence?

Libby is a bright guy and a lawyer--he knows how the game is played.

His status as felon is inconsequential.  Just ask convicted felon Elliot Abrams.  He lied to Congress re Iran Contra and Pres. Bush pardoned him to cover his own ass.

Sound familiar?  Boy it sure runs in the family.  When a tact works, run with it.

Currently Abrams is "Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy"--a very high position in the current Bush administration.  Bush appointed him to the spot.

Or ask John Poindexter another felon convicted of obstructing justice and lying about the Iran Contra affair.  He served as DARPA chief in the current Bush Administration.

Or ask felon Ollie North--he's doing fairly well these days.  Didn't he run for Congress?

So the mere inconvenience of a felony would not likely inhibit Abrams career.

You do see a pattern emerging, right?

No I don't see a pattern.  All I see is a lot of assumptions.   

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2007, 01:04:43 PM »
No I don't see a pattern.  All I see is a lot of assumptions.   
The father as president pardons felons that could implicate Bush and his staff in Iran/Contra.

The son as president commutes the sentence of a felon that could implicate Bush and his staff in the treasonous crime of outing a covert spy during a time of war.

You see no pattern of similarity there? 

Get out of jail free, despite the underlying treasonous crime, is no way to reward perjurers and obstructionists.

Bush's commutation of the Libby sentence sets a horrible standard for the operation of justice.

Lie and obstruct justice and you will do no jail time.

Is that the kind of message we want our president sending Beach Bum?

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2007, 01:23:53 PM »
The father as president pardons felons that could implicate Bush and his staff in Iran/Contra.

The son as president commutes the sentence of a felon that could implicate Bush and his staff in the treasonous crime of outing a covert spy during a time of war.

You see no pattern of similarity there? 

Get out of jail free, despite the underlying treasonous crime, is no way to reward perjurers and obstructionists.

Bush's commutation of the Libby sentence sets a horrible standard for the operation of justice.

Lie and obstruct justice and you will do no jail time.

Is that the kind of message we want our president sending Beach Bum?

I don't think it's that simple.  I am not a fan of special prosecutors.  Lawrence Walsh wasted millions of tax dollars running down rabbit trails.  I was opposed to his efforts.  Felt the same way about Ken Starr.  Complete waste of my money.  Still, I think Bush Sr.'s pardons of Weinberger et al. were far more problematic than commuting Libby's sentence.  Pardoning someone before a trial can give the appearance that there may be some kind of cover up.  Pardoning someone after a public trial doesn't raise those same concerns in my mind. 

Every person who has been pardoned after a conviction has committed a very serious crime (assuming he was not wrongfully convicted).  Libby is no different than any other pardoned felon.  They're all criminals.  The view that his sentence was commuted to keep him from somehow exposing an unknown person for a crime that no one has been charged with committing is pure speculation. 

I think you can look at a plethora of presidential pardons and say they send a bad message.  There really isn't much of a distinction.  We either have to live with this unchecked power we have given to the executive branch or change the rules.     

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2007, 02:05:03 PM »
I don't think it's that simple.  I am not a fan of special prosecutors.  Lawrence Walsh wasted millions of tax dollars running down rabbit trails.  I was opposed to his efforts.  Felt the same way about Ken Starr.  Complete waste of my money.  Still, I think Bush Sr.'s pardons of Weinberger et al. were far more problematic than commuting Libby's sentence.  Pardoning someone before a trial can give the appearance that there may be some kind of cover up.  Pardoning someone after a public trial doesn't raise those same concerns in my mind. 

Every person who has been pardoned after a conviction has committed a very serious crime (assuming he was not wrongfully convicted).  Libby is no different than any other pardoned felon.  They're all criminals.  The view that his sentence was commuted to keep him from somehow exposing an unknown person for a crime that no one has been charged with committing is pure speculation. 

I think you can look at a plethora of presidential pardons and say they send a bad message.  There really isn't much of a distinction.  We either have to live with this unchecked power we have given to the executive branch or change the rules.     
You don't see Libby's get-out-of-jail-free incentive to keep lying and obstructing justice, i.e., not cooperating with the authorities? 

He knows his bosses can and will fix his jail time as long as he keeps his mouth shut.  That is circumstantial yet sound.

Libby did not cooperate with the investigation--his obstruction killed it in its tracks.  That's why he was jailed.

Somebody committed the underlying crime.

Please point out one other presidential pardon that completely shields the president from investigation re treason (Iran Contra/Spy exposed) the way the two Bushes did it?

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2007, 02:15:15 PM »
You don't see Libby's get-out-of-jail-free incentive to keep lying and obstructing justice, i.e., not cooperating with the authorities? 

He knows his bosses can and will fix his jail time as long as he keeps his mouth shut.  That is circumstantial yet sound.

Libby did not cooperate with the investigation--his obstruction killed it in its tracks.  That's why he was jailed.

Somebody committed the underlying crime.

Please point out one other presidential pardon that completely shields the president from investigation re treason (Iran Contra/Spy exposed) the way the two Bushes did it?

I doubt Libby is different than many other persons being investigated for a serious crime.  Of course you keep your mouth shut when the feds are after you.  Take the Fifth, etc.

I thought there was a disagreement over whether or not an underlying crime was actually committed? 

I have not researched presidential pardons well enough to know about pardons that shield the president from investigations for treason, but I don't recall Reagan, Bush Sr. or Dubya being investigated for treason either. 

Sounds like you think Libby is the only person who has information about this so-called crime? 

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Re: Bush Commutes "Scooter" Libby
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2007, 03:50:19 AM »
I think the Libby pardon is a disgrace.

Some of Clinton's pardons were ok, but some were definitely not, and a few were a disgrace IMO.

Bush had to pardon Libby, since Libby would've been offered a deal to sing on Cheney or whoever was pulling the strings.

Either way, Bush loses.

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