Sicko

[Hugo Chavez]

WOW!  It's a really good thing Americans have been so thoroughly dumbed down… otherwise Moore’s new movie would have caused a mass exodus out of America. 

[Nordic Superman]

WOW!  It's a really good thing Americans have been so thoroughly dumbed down… otherwise Moore’s new movie would have caused a mass exodus out of America. 

You just want free health care to deal with your crack and cock addictions. That's your motive isn't it?

[Hugo Chavez]

You just want free health care to deal with your crack and cock addictions. That's your motive isn't it?

Gee Nordic, I sure missed you

[Fury]

Just say no to universal health care!

[24KT]

You just want free health care to deal with your crack and cock addictions. That's your motive isn't it?

Again with the out-of-left-field references to male genitalia?

I see a definite pattern here. 

[Hugo Chavez]

free health care.. lol why not free everything? dont stop there.

You mean like public schools, police and fire services, city and county services, postal services, etc etc... yea, what a rare freakin concept...  Clearly as soon as we had free health care in some form the red commie flags and Marx statues would rise up overnight

[Brixtonbulldog]

Nothing is free.  Everything comes from taxes.  Money the gov't gets to decide what's best to throw it at.  If you want %50 of your check to line the gov'ts pockets then please go somewhere else.

[Hugo Chavez]

Nothing is free.  Everything comes from taxes. 

nobody said free and in poof, its free...  of course taxes come into play to pay for these things.   It's not a new concept is my point,... we have taxes all the time to meet the most basic needs of the community...  The more things become privatized, the more the people get fucked in the ass; overall, every single time, the people pay more to the corporation, than they doto a system that collects taxes and provides a common service.   100% privatized is more money out of the wallets of the people then taxes pull for the same services period.

[Brixtonbulldog]

nobody said free and in poof, its free...  of course taxes come into play to pay for these things.   It's not a new concept is my point,... we have taxes all the time to meet the most basic needs of the community...  The more things become privatized, the more the people get fucked in the ass; overall, every single time, the people pay more to the corporation, than they would to a system that collects taxes and provides a common service.   Privatized is more money out of the wallets of the people then taxes pull for the same services.

You're way off.  Privitazation has to deal with competition and the consumers.  You're thinking of what happens when gov't starts meddling in free market and nationalizing everything.

[Hugo Chavez]

You're way off.  Privitazation has to deal with competition and the consumers.  You're thinking of what happens when gov't starts meddling in free market and nationalizing everything.

I'm way off? lol....

[Brixtonbulldog]

Brixton is right.

The real issue is that no one has the right to demand service from someone else. No body has the right to health care these people work just like everyone else and they have a specialized skill that they should be  paid for.

If you had the chance of taking one other person (excluding loved ones etc) who would you take? your cashier? your banker? your mechanic? no fucking way you would take your Doctor in one second. They are the most valued people in our lives and they should be paid accordingly for what they do and taxing for " free health care" is not going to do it.

You can not continously tax  someone else to fit the bill of another- not only will it make the mds paychecks go down the toillet it will completely destroy quality care. The governement will have to start rationing out limitations to service down the road because its free for everyone. The hospitals wont have an unlimited tab that the govt will bill( which in reality the govt is not paying ofcourse its the people) they will put a limitiation on the types of procedures that are under the budget.

Eat it BF.  And study free market so we won't have this misunderstanding again.

[Hugo Chavez]

LOL... misunderstanding   yea, yours!  You made a post suggesting people wanting more taxes taken out of their pockets take a hike.  You noted nothing is free, everything comes from taxes.  Thus enters my address of "Privatization" as in the transfer of service X from government(taxes) to the private sector.  My point being that overall more money will leave the wallets of the people for services provided by the private sector than services provided by the gov paid by taxes.  My reply was spot on to your point.  The misunderstanding is yours, not mine brix.  And BF is against universal health care, I'm not... another misunderstanding?

For the record Brix, you said, "Privitazation has to deal with competition and the consumers." which is lacking the main points of defining the word... bigtime...

[Dos Equis]

Brixton is right.

The real issue is that no one has the right to demand service from someone else. No body has the right to health care these people work just like everyone else and they have a specialized skill that they should be  paid for.

If you had the chance of taking one other person (excluding loved ones etc) who would you take? your cashier? your banker? your mechanic? no fucking way you would take your Doctor in one second. They are the most valued people in our lives and they should be paid accordingly for what they do and taxing for " free health care" is not going to do it.

You can not continously tax  someone else to fit the bill of another- not only will it make the mds paychecks go down the toillet it will completely destroy quality care. The governement will have to start rationing out limitations to service down the road because its free for everyone. The hospitals wont have an unlimited tab that the govt will bill( which in reality the govt is not paying ofcourse its the people) they will put a limitiation on the types of procedures that are under the budget.

Good points.  We've had this discussion on the board before, but I think the lack of healthcare is grossly overstated.  No one in the United States can be denied emergency health care.  There are a number of federal and state programs that provide preventive health for poor people.  Most communities have clinics that offer free immunization for kids.  Most employers offer health care plans.  Hawaii requires all employers to provide healthcare to employees who work at least 20 hours a week.  I think there are relatively few people who fall completely outside the safety net and wind up with no health care. 

That said, I do think the quality of care is a legitimate issue. 

[Hugo Chavez]

wow, no exuse for this:

Quality of Health Care: Of the 191-country ranking, here are the top 50:

Top 10 quality care nations: France, Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, Japan.
2nd 10: Norway, Portugal, Monaco, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, England, Ireland, Switzerland.
3rd 10: Belgium, Columbia, Sweden, Cyprus, German, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Morocco, Canada.
4th ten: Finland, Australia, Chile, Denmark, Dominica, Costa Rica, United States, Slovenia, Cuba, Brunei.
5th ten: New Zealand, Bahrain, Crotia, Qatar, Kuwait, Barbados, Thailand, Czech Republic, Malaysia, Poland.
(reported 21 June 2000, Bradenton Herald-Tribune).

[Hugo Chavez]

Good points.  We've had this discussion on the board before, but I think the lack of healthcare is grossly overstated.  No one in the United States can be denied emergency health care.  There are a number of federal and state programs that provide preventive health for poor people.  Most communities have clinics that offer free immunization for kids.  Most employers offer health care plans.  Hawaii requires all employers to provide healthcare to employees who work at least 20 hours a week.  I think there are relatively few people who fall completely outside the safety net and wind up with no health care. 

That said, I do think the quality of care is a legitimate issue. 

I sure wouldn't argue you if we're only talking about bumps, bruises, colds, algergies, etc... but as soon as the problem becomes serious, your outlook on the system is dead ass wrong.  But for minor shit, you're right, we're all covered well.

[Hugo Chavez]

Interesting...


For another view of international comparison,

the left chart shows total health care spending by various nations.

Note the U.S. spent 14.2% of its economy on healthcare at the date of this chart. The above update reports 2003 spending significantly higher, at 15.3% of GDP. and the above reported Sept. 2006 report shows U.S. costs increased to near 16% of GDP - - approximately 60% more than other nations.
Spending much more than nations covering all citizens via national health insurance.

(Data Source: OECD data published The Economist magazine 10/24/98)
(Source: the 2006 report, commissioned by the non-profit and non-partisan Commonwealth Fund  - http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503)

[Brixtonbulldog]

LOL... misunderstanding   yea, yours!  You made a post suggesting people wanting more taxes taken out of their pockets take a hike.  You noted nothing is free, everything comes from taxes.  Thus enters my address of "Privatization" as in the transfer of service X from government(taxes) to the private sector.  My point being that overall more money will leave the wallets of the people for services provided by the private sector than services provided by the gov paid by taxes.  My reply was spot on to your point.  The misunderstanding is yours, not mine brix.  And BF is against universal health care, I'm not... another misunderstanding?

For the record Brix, you said, "Privitazation has to deal with competition and the consumers." which is lacking the main points of defining the word... bigtime...

The only thing I'm confused about is the garbage flowing from your fingertips.  People want to pay less taxes for better care... privatization!  The Gov't is a monopoly if left responsible for health care.  Privatization, free market, competition, is the only thing that will drive down the cost of health care in this country.  The less the gov't is involved, the cheaper it will be (same as any other market!).  People need to be given the choice.. that choice is what FORCES the private sector companies to compete.  OVERALL, the gov't will take what they want when they want it versus people choosing one company/doctor/hospital/ins over another and ultimately deciding how much they pay THEMSELVES.

Clear?

[Dos Equis]

I sure wouldn't argue you if we're only talking about bumps, bruises, colds, algergies, etc... but as soon as the problem becomes serious, your outlook on the system is dead ass wrong.  But for minor shit, you're right, we're all covered well.

My outlook is pretty accurate.  The number of people with no access to healthcare is grossly overstated. 

People with serious, ongoing health problems who have no insurance probably qualify for Medicaid, Medicare, and/or their state equivalents.  Does this mean everyone has access to good quality care?  No.  But it also doesn't require the federal government to take over the system.  I think it would be a disaster.     

[Dos Equis]

wow, no exuse for this:

Quality of Health Care: Of the 191-country ranking, here are the top 50:

Top 10 quality care nations: France, Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, Japan.
2nd 10: Norway, Portugal, Monaco, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, England, Ireland, Switzerland.
3rd 10: Belgium, Columbia, Sweden, Cyprus, German, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Morocco, Canada.
4th ten: Finland, Australia, Chile, Denmark, Dominica, Costa Rica, United States, Slovenia, Cuba, Brunei.
5th ten: New Zealand, Bahrain, Crotia, Qatar, Kuwait, Barbados, Thailand, Czech Republic, Malaysia, Poland.
(reported 21 June 2000, Bradenton Herald-Tribune).

Says the World Health Organization.  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20000621/ai_n10601004 

Part of their criteria was longevity, which really has more to do with lifestyle choices than the healthcare system.   

[Hugo Chavez]

The only thing I'm confused about is the garbage flowing from your fingertips.  People want to pay less taxes for better care...<==tell that to the ones who won't get any care at all, and the well off would still have all the options they now have so now what? privatization!  The Gov't is a monopoly if left responsible for health care.<==as apposed to all the corporate monopolies around the country huh?  Privatization, free market, competition, is the only thing that will drive down the cost of health care in this country.<==WRONG, Socializing the system will drop it pretty dang quick   The less the gov't is involved, the cheaper it will be<==WRONG, enter profit motive, it get's more expensive and prohibitive, all the people right out turned down for coverage... (same as any other market!).  People need to be given the choice..As if the well off wouldn't have a choice Oh brother, gimme a break... that choice is what FORCES the private sector companies to compete.  OVERALL, the gov't will take what they want when they want it versus people choosing one company/doctor/hospital/ins over another and ultimately deciding how much they pay THEMSELVES.<== Nothings going to be the perfect solution for everyone, but one thing is for sure, the poor need this, this rich will always have more options at their disposal, the poor and lower class far outweigh the upper middle class and wealthy.  Logical to side with the system that fits the need.

Clear?

melt baby melt...  Thanks for covering the righty stance on healthcare, which we're all well versed on over and over and over... oh yea, nice try diverting from my being way off on talking about privatization in reply to your taxation comment...  I'd rather of had an "oh oops, my bust" but I'll take your meltdown with equal satisfaction

[Hugo Chavez]

My outlook is pretty accurate.  The number of people with no access to healthcare is grossly overstated. 

People with serious, ongoing health problems who have no insurance probably qualify for Medicaid, Medicare, and/or their state equivalents.  Does this mean everyone has access to good quality care?  No.  But it also doesn't require the federal government to take over the system.  I think it would be a disaster.     

No it's not Almost 50 million uninsured is not grossly overestimated and you did indeed lay out services that only cover people for minor problems to make your point.

[Hugo Chavez]

Says the World Health Organization.  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20000621/ai_n10601004 

Part of their criteria was longevity, which really has more to do with lifestyle choices than the healthcare system.   

you're nullifying it on that come on   The healthcare systems in these other countries are very active in preventive medicine, which you're right, brings into play lifestyle, just as it should.  Here, a doctor can get shut down for their preventive medicine practices if they're not careful.  So yea, you are much more likely to have a doc in France address your lifestyle and practice preventative than you will here, where they seem more interested in dealing with the problem only after it happens rather than preventing it.

[Dos Equis]

No it's not Almost 50 million uninsured is not grossly overestimated and you did indeed lay out services that only cover people for minor problems to make your point.

Wrong.  Here is what I said:

1.  "No one in the United States can be denied emergency health care."  Anti-patient dumping laws require hospitals to treat anyone who shows up.  They don't treat people with "minor problems" in the ER.  

2.  "There are a number of federal and state programs that provide preventive health for poor people."  This allows poor people with health problems to have access to health care, from check-ups to surgery.  

3.  "Most communities have clinics that offer free immunization for kids."  This doesn't deal with "minor problems" or problems at all.  Immunization is about prevention.  

4.  "Most employers offer health care plans."  Again, has nothing to do with "minor problems."  

5.  "Hawaii requires all employers to provide healthcare to employees who work at least 20 hours a week."  Didn't say anything about "minor problems."  

So how exactly did I "lay out services that only cover people for minor problems to make [my] point"?

50 million uninsured?    

[Dos Equis]

you're nullifying it on that come on   The healthcare systems in these other countries are very active in preventive medicine, which you're right, brings into play lifestyle, just as it should.  Here, a doctor can get shut down for their preventive medicine practices if they're not careful.  So yea, you are much more likely to have a doc in France address your lifestyle and practice preventative than you will here, where they seem more interested in dealing with the problem only after it happens rather than preventing it.

I didn't say I was nullifying the opinion of the WHO.  Just providing some context.  Doctors don't know squat about prevention.  They primarily treat.  They don't really study nutrition in medical school.  They're trained to treat people after they get sick, not prevent them from getting sick. 

[Hugo Chavez]

I didn't say I was nullifying the opinion of the WHO.  Just providing some context.  Doctors don't know squat about prevention.  They primarily treat.  They don't really study nutrition in medical school.  They're trained to treat people after they get sick, not prevent them from getting sick. 

exactly my point, the doctors that do go that route in earnest can find themselves getting into hot water.  I know of one doctor who not long after starting preventive and alternative medicine quickly got targeted by the state medical board.  She's lucky to be practicing today and had to fight them in court, so yea, with a treat the illness, not prevent it policy, it's no wonder Doctors in America don't know shit about it.  The ones who do have to fight the system every step of the way.  and insurance companies, yup, won't touch that...  No wonder they do go there...  Now, it's my understanding that some of these other countries embrace preventive medicine.  their system, good for us... Our system, good for the pharmaceuticals