What do you think about a 'Milos style' cycle?

[Arnold jr]

Well, I'm basically there now, on 100mgs/EOD of prop. So it was obviously a training/eating issue. Also, keep in mind that I don't train for hypertrophy, so size is really not important at all for me. Weight is an after thought...I'm not a BB'er, nor do I have any interest in it at all. But the risk/reward wasn't even a concern...I did that right when I got out of prison, and just wanted some quick size and strength...and remember, at that point, everything I could want was free (still is), so I just shot 3cc a day of whatever I got for free.

But again, I kinda just did it to do it, and because it was free. Risk/Reward is an interesting idea though. What if I told you I did it so I could oil myself up, put on speedos, and win a dinky plastic trophy that looks like it belongs in the Gay-Hall-of-Fame? Would that constitute acceptable risk, then?

It's all in how you look at it.

Entrance into the "Gay-Hall-of-Fame?" Is that where you're heading if you compete in a BB contest, lol?

[Luv2Hurt]

Entrance into the "Gay-Hall-of-Fame?" Is that where you're heading if you compete in a BB contest, lol?

Yeah what a cop out.

[hooker]

Entrance into the "Gay-Hall-of-Fame?" Is that where you're heading if you compete in a BB contest, lol?

Only if you're lucky...

My point is that the goals that are of utmost importance to some people (some arbitrary weight, some arbitrary athletic goal, some arbitrary trophy) are not important at all to others...and to still others, they're laughable. So to talk of things in a risk/reward ratio type of dialogue isn't really going to be accurate.

For me, being part of a championship rugby team is a huge goal, as is playing the sport at a high level...for others, winning a bodybuilding contest is a huge goal...but in practical terms both constitute acceptable risk/reward to the person alone, and not to anyone else. It's gibberish to really talk of risk/reward in those terms. Perhaps, to the 350lb overweight person, the ultimate goal of losing 150lbs is the most important thing in the world. How do you quantify risk reward in that (or these other) cases?

In short, what I was saying...was that the criteria isn't valid. I weighed a lot, and was using a lot of gear...but it didn't help my goals at all. Now, I'm much fitter, on way less gear, and weigh about the same...and it does help my goals. Perhaps, to me, I would say the risk reward of going over 100mgs/EOD of prop is unacceptable. Or that the risk of going to prison to use AAS is unacceptable. But not to others.

Again, my point (besides that I didn't need that much gear to get to this weight), is that you can't measure results and quantify them in risk/reward....it would constitute an unacceptable risk (to me) to buy anything illegally right now, even if I knew I could be Mr.O by doing it (hypothetically). Why? Because bodybuilding is nothing at all to me. Truth be told, I actually don't like it at all. But...It's everything to other people. You can't measure these things, and that's my point. It's an invalid criteria.

[trab]

He has a point, I dont think he means to be dissrespectfull to BBers.
Everyone has different uses for using these drugs. Fact is the athletes that prolly use the most look sloppy.  Dose can be pretty individual. I'd feel fine on 1000mgs of sus in aweek pluss 500 Te.
While 500cyp will make my back look like I got hit with buckshot.

Hooker,Im wondering why Ya prefer the prop for HRT vs a long acting?
All them shots are a pain.

[Arnold jr]

Only if you're lucky...

My point is that the goals that are of utmost importance to some people (some arbitrary weight, some arbitrary athletic goal, some arbitrary trophy) are not important at all to others...and to still others, they're laughable. So to talk of things in a risk/reward ratio type of dialogue isn't really going to be accurate.

For me, being part of a championship rugby team is a huge goal, as is playing the sport at a high level...for others, winning a bodybuilding contest is a huge goal...but in practical terms both constitute acceptable risk/reward to the person alone, and not to anyone else. It's gibberish to really talk of risk/reward in those terms. Perhaps, to the 350lb overweight person, the ultimate goal of losing 150lbs is the most important thing in the world. How do you quantify risk reward in that (or these other) cases?

In short, what I was saying...was that the criteria isn't valid. I weighed a lot, and was using a lot of gear...but it didn't help my goals at all. Now, I'm much fitter, on way less gear, and weigh about the same...and it does help my goals. Perhaps, to me, I would say the risk reward of going over 100mgs/EOD of prop is unacceptable. Or that the risk of going to prison to use AAS is unacceptable. But not to others.

Again, my point (besides that I didn't need that much gear to get to this weight), is that you can't measure results and quantify them in risk/reward....it would constitute an unacceptable risk (to me) to buy anything illegally right now, even if I knew I could be Mr.O by doing it (hypothetically). Why? Because bodybuilding is nothing at all to me. Truth be told, I actually don't like it at all. But...It's everything to other people. You can't measure these things, and that's my point. It's an invalid criteria.

I understand your points, and I agree. I had a conversaton with a friend along these lines the other day...he asked, where do you cut it off, when does the balance of good become outweighed by the bad? When does the risk involved in a pursuit like, in his an my case BB, become far greater then any reward? And you're absolutely right hooker, it can only be measured by the individual...at the same time, the individual does need to make these choices based on some sort of sound reason. Personally speaking, I would never live like I do and put the stress on my body that I do, if there were not some goals in mind...and no, a shiny little trophy is not enough to justify these goals...there needs/has to be more then that IMO.

Hooker,Im wondering why Ya prefer the prop for HRT vs a long acting?
All them shots are a pain.

Just a hunch, but I'd say he prefers it because prop yields more actual usable test then other esters. Plus, if you can handle the injection frequency and/or the pain, it can be much smoother. For myself, 8wks of prop at a time is all I can take...the injections are fairly painful, and it doesn't matter what brand I use...after 8wks of that I've usually had enough.

[hooker]

He has a point, I dont think he means to be dissrespectfull to BBers.
Everyone has different uses for using these drugs. Fact is the athletes that prolly use the most look sloppy.  Dose can be pretty individual. I'd feel fine on 1000mgs of sus in aweek pluss 500 Te.
While 500cyp will make my back look like I got hit with buckshot.

Hooker,Im wondering why Ya prefer the prop for HRT vs a long acting?
All them shots are a pain.

I just always held less water on prop. And no, I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone, really...whatever people's goals are...are important to them (not to me, though, and vice-versa). That's my point...you can't measure success when people have different goals. 4 years ago, my friend Rosanne (Clemente) wanted to step on stage...then she wanted to win a state title...now, she wants to be healthy and look like a girl...and that goal is more important to her than a state title was. Goals, risk/reward, etc...it's all subjective...and terribly important...and not important at all.

[hooker]

I understand your points, and I agree. I had a conversaton with a friend along these lines the other day...he asked, where do you cut it off, when does the balance of good become outweighed by the bad? When does the risk involved in a pursuit like, in his an my case BB, become far greater then any reward? And you're absolutely right hooker, it can only be measured by the individual...at the same time, the individual does need to make these choices based on some sort of sound reason. Personally speaking, I would never live like I do and put the stress on my body that I do, if there were not some goals in mind...and no, a shiny little trophy is not enough to justify these goals...there needs/has to be more then that IMO.

One time in my blog I mentioned that the prize money earned for winning the Mr.O + all the endorsements...is roughly half of the yearly income of the top video gamer in the world (FaTal1ty is his name).

I got about a dozen e-mails. More than half said that I was a dick for mentioning that little fact, and asked me if I was trying to disrespect bodybuilders....

The rest asked me if I was trying to disrespect video-gamers...

Perspective, guys. For every guy who wants to be Mr.0, there's 10 who want to be the best video gamer in the world, and their goals are just as important to themselves...though...ea ch thinks the other's goal is absurdly dumb, and their own to be very worthwhile and important.

I think they're both right.


 

[trab]

One time in my blog I mentioned that the prize money earned for winning the Mr.O + all the endorsements...is roughly half of the yearly income of the top video gamer in the world (FaTal1ty is his name).
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
   Sad but True I dont doubt it. Pointing something out is not being dissrespectfull.

Now, I cant help but wonder what the best stack for a "Pro video gamer" is. It wouldnt surprise me a bit

[Luv2Hurt]

...it's all subjective...and terribly important...and not important at all.

Agree, very insightfull, what you wrote above is very cool!  I thought you may be going in the other direction here.  Personally for me any trophy I ever won are in a box in my basement, kept because one day when I'm old I'm sure they will bring great and maybe not so great memories, but they are like pages in a book.

The reason I compete is to be MY best, I don't care who else is there that day.  I do it to push myself to new levels, just for me, no one else.  Do you need to step on some kind of stage or whatever for this?  No and it for sure is only important to me, does not matter much to others, we just try to make the best of our own little worlds as we see fit. 

Its the people in your life that support you and make your endeavours important to them those are the people we cherish, sometimes people suprise me on how good they can be.  You know the people who can give praise are secure people, the ones who hate have the issues.

Like I have said before, I would never "Rain on anyones parade" what ever it is that is important to THEM.

[DIVISION]

Risk/Reward is an interesting idea though. What if I told you I did it so I could oil myself up, put on speedos, and win a dinky plastic trophy that looks like it belongs in the Gay-Hall-of-Fame? Would that constitute acceptable risk, then?

It's all in how you look at it.

Of course it's a matter of perspective, Anthony.

I just can't see 4G ew ever being an option for me, unless I was going IFFB pro and didn't have a family or girlfriend.

In that case, it wouldn't matter if I lived or died.........just as long as I made it and whatever amount of drugs it took would suffice.

That would undoubtedly shorten my life, but if I was hellbent on doing it, I'm sure I could.

Agree, very insightfull, what you wrote above is very cool!  I thought you may be going in the other direction here.  Personally for me any trophy I ever won are in a box in my basement, kept because one day when I'm old I'm sure they will bring great and maybe not so great memories, but they are like pages in a book.

The reason I compete is to be MY best, I don't care who else is there that day.  I do it to push myself to new levels, just for me, no one else.  Do you need to step on some kind of stage or whatever for this?  No and it for sure is only important to me, does not matter much to others, we just try to make the best of our own little worlds as we see fit. 

Its the people in your life that support you and make your endeavours important to them those are the people we cherish, sometimes people suprise me on how good they can be.  You know the people who can give praise are secure people, the ones who hate have the issues.

Like I have said before, I would never "Rain on anyones parade" what ever it is that is important to THEM.

I've always considered bodybuilders as primadonnas when I judge lifters.

I'm a trainer, so I'm surrounded by varous types of lifters all the time.

There are some bodybuilders who are good fundamental lifters, but just choose to go in that direction instead of strongman or powerlifting.....

On the whole, though, most bodybuilders I see are much like women in terms of aesthetics and that is something I don't respect.

Looking at yourself in the mirror while you train to see the muscle and admiring yourself like that is a female trait....

When I train, it's intensity and the performing of the lifts, the technical aspects.........nothing else matters at that point.

Not the mirror, or the women......nothing else but the lifts.



DIV

[Luv2Hurt]

I've always considered bodybuilders as primadonnas when I judge lifters.

I'm a trainer, so I'm surrounded by varous types of lifters all the time.

There are some bodybuilders who are good fundamental lifters, but just choose to go in that direction instead of strongman or powerlifting.....

On the whole, though, most bodybuilders I see are much like women in terms of aesthetics and that is something I don't respect.

Looking at yourself in the mirror while you train to see the muscle and admiring yourself like that is a female trait....

When I train, it's intensity and the performing of the lifts, the technical aspects.........nothing else matters at that point.

Not the mirror, or the women......nothing else but the lifts.



DIV

Thanks for sharing, your opinion is duly noted.

[trab]

4500mg? Ok Lets say 1500-2500 test, and the rest Deca and such. I bet theres  big boys that can soak that up with out running the BP out of range. If the Blood pannels aint way whacked, whos to say thats
gonna kill them anymoreso then a 600mg cycle for a average guy.  I'd love to see what those strong man
competitors take. Look at some of the top PLers . My God looks like some are ADDING Estrogen.

[Arnold jr]

I've always considered bodybuilders as primadonnas when I judge lifters.

I'm a trainer, so I'm surrounded by varous types of lifters all the time.

There are some bodybuilders who are good fundamental lifters, but just choose to go in that direction instead of strongman or powerlifting.....

On the whole, though, most bodybuilders I see are much like women in terms of aesthetics and that is something I don't respect.

Looking at yourself in the mirror while you train to see the muscle and admiring yourself like that is a female trait....

When I train, it's intensity and the performing of the lifts, the technical aspects.........nothing else matters at that point.

Not the mirror, or the women......nothing else but the lifts.



DIV

I disagree big time. True, there are those out there that fit the mold you just described "primadonnas" but it's just a stereotype and stereotypes are not always true...I think we can all agree on that.

My life revolves around BB, many of my everyday friends are involved in the sport in some manner, be it BB, FBB, fit or fig, and very few are what I'd consider "primadonnas."

As for "looking in the mirror" for most it's not done out of admiration for ones self...at least it shouldn't be. It's simply judging ones self, looking at or for improvements. As for doing a bunch of posing and flexing in the gym right in front of everyone...yeah, I've seen guys that do this, most do not...I sure don't. There is however a little studio room at my gym that I'll go into and pose to see my progress and what needs to be done...so it's done privately.

[trab]

Theres plenty of narcissistic asses that are not BBers. PPL who apreciate BBing like to watch an acomplished Bber lift and pose. Nothing vain about that in my mind. Its the whole damn point of building it.
Wierd science. I dont think all BBers are like "Oh Im so beautifull".
I personaly dont look like jack, but my Drs and Massage therapist and accupuncturist  all make.. Oh WOW comments.
Personaly I think I look kind of wierd. Its just a matter of being able to change my body to a degree.
Thats powerfull. SO many PPL cry/ complain about how they look - Well do somthing!You can.
AJ, you dont come acrost as egotistical or vain even a little. I wouldnt sweat it. PPL enjoy watching you pose Im sure.

[DIVISION]

4500mg? Ok Lets say 1500-2500 test, and the rest Deca and such. I bet theres  big boys that can soak that up with out running the BP out of range. If the Blood pannels aint way whacked, whos to say thats
gonna kill them anymoreso then a 600mg cycle for a average guy.  I'd love to see what those strong man
competitors take. Look at some of the top PLers . My God looks like some are ADDING Estrogen.

Alot of those powerlifters are letting bodyfat levels get out of control because they don't care about that, as long as they are keeping optimum strengh levels with glycogen levels topped off, they don't care how fat they are.

It's leverage.

I disagree big time. True, there are those out there that fit the mold you just described "primadonnas" but it's just a stereotype and stereotypes are not always true...I think we can all agree on that.

My life revolves around BB, many of my everyday friends are involved in the sport in some manner, be it BB, FBB, fit or fig, and very few are what I'd consider "primadonnas."

As for "looking in the mirror" for most it's not done out of admiration for ones self...at least it shouldn't be. It's simply judging ones self, looking at or for improvements. As for doing a bunch of posing and flexing in the gym right in front of everyone...yeah, I've seen guys that do this, most do not...I sure don't. There is however a little studio room at my gym that I'll go into and pose to see my progress and what needs to be done...so it's done privately.

More than half of those I see who I characterize as bodybuilders are the primadonna types.

The weight they use, average at best and the form isn't really textbook.

Perhaps it's Phoenix..........but that's what I see.

I realize it's all training style, but it's hard for me to respect a lifter who is larger than me but doesn't lift the same weight I do for the form that I lift it.

I suppose that's the difference in mindset.

Strength vs. Size.......

I'm all about the strength and I don't care about the size.


DIV

[Arnold jr]

AJ, you dont come acrost as egotistical or vain even a little. I wouldnt sweat it. PPL enjoy watching you pose Im sure.

Trust me, I'm nothing special to look at. As for being egotistical and vain...I am undoubtedly the biggest bad ass on the planet!

More than half of those I see who I characterize as bodybuilders are the primadonna types.

The weight they use, average at best and the form isn't really textbook.

This I don't understand. Why does the actual weight used need to be the measure of respect you have for any BB? After all, you know as well as anyone what the goal is for a BB, and respect in this case is not measured by weight moved.

I'll agree on form though. BB or PL, it's hard to look at either and say, "great lift" when the form sucks. When I see some guy squatting 600lbs going down 2 inches, no, I don't admire this.

Perhaps it's Phoenix..........but that's what I see.

No, what you've described does exist...they are out there and there is always at least one or two in most gyms anywhere. But from what I've seen, most BB do not fall into this category...they cannot, simply because that would be a waste of time and energy to what they are actually trying to do. Maybe you don't notice these types because they probably keep to themselves...no one ever notices someone who's not trying to create a scene IMO.

I realize it's all training style, but it's hard for me to respect a lifter who is larger than me but doesn't lift the same weight I do for the form that I lift it.

I suppose that's the difference in mindset.

Strength vs. Size.......

I'm all about the strength and I don't care about the size.


DIV

I suppose so. However, even though the size is important to me, in actuality it's the "look" the actual size does not matter...you know, for example, it's about making 200lbs look like 250lbs. But even so, even if you are a BB, you still enjoy the strength that you have...you just have to be carefull to not let your ego in terms of strength get in the way of your primary goal...I still to this day have to watch that.

[DIVISION]

No, what you've described does exist...they are out there and there is always at least one or two in most gyms anywhere. But from what I've seen, most BB do not fall into this category...they cannot, simply because that would be a waste of time and energy to what they are actually trying to do. Maybe you don't notice these types because they probably keep to themselves...no one ever notices someone who's not trying to create a scene IMO.

Perhaps.......

These are just general observations.

Some things stand out more than others when you work in a gym.



DIV

[Arnold jr]

Perhaps.......

These are just general observations.

Some things stand out more than others when you work in a gym.



DIV

Speaking of working in a gym. How has that worked out for you so far...have you been able to make some decent money? I ask because I'm thinking of getting in to that more full time...I need a change and my current job has just become too much.

[DIVISION]

Speaking of working in a gym. How has that worked out for you so far...have you been able to make some decent money? I ask because I'm thinking of getting in to that more full time...I need a change and my current job has just become too much.

Do it part-time because it's a nice change of scenery, esp if you are good at it, but don't rely on it for full-time work.

I make decent money, esp considering that I work indoors telling people how to lift.....

I can't complain.

Plus, I make my own hours and I don't sell anything.

I only train.


DIV

[dragonheart]

Looks reasonable to me.  I can see a good number of national level competitors using something around that area.  I think the top guys at the olympia though use considerably more.

[Arnold jr]

Looks reasonable to me.  I can see a good number of national level competitors using something around that area.  I think the top guys at the olympia though use considerably more.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, you've just stated yours above. But I wish everyone would understand that when they say things like "I think" this or that, that this does not hold tons of credibility...not when we're talking about what "others" do...in this case, people none of you know in "real" life, nor have any sort of "real" contact with.

Again, and for the up tenth time, there are guys who use/used this much and more (gh15 cycles) I've known some. But I also know some very successful BB who use much less (Milos style cycles) and their are more of them IMO.

[trab]

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, you've just stated yours above. But I wish everyone would understand that when they say things like "I think" this or that, that this does not hold tons of credibility...not when we're talking about what "others" do...in this case, people none of you know in "real" life, nor have any sort of "real" contact with.

Again, and for the up tenth time, there are guys who use/used this much and more (gh15 cycles) I've known some. But I also know some very successful BB who use much less (Milos style cycles) and their are more of them IMO.

Right, it's downright counter productive for most. But that dont stop people from doing it.

[hooker]

This I don't understand. Why does the actual weight used need to be the measure of respect you have for any BB? After all, you know as well as anyone what the goal is for a BB, and respect in this case is not measured by weight moved.

This is definitionally true. The best competitor at a given event or activity is the person who is best at that given activity. The premier example is MMA....nobody cares what kind of body you have or what kind of weights you can move...they only care if you can beat the other guy. Nothing else matters.

The same should go for bodybuilding (or any endeavor). You should judge people's ability by their proficiency at their sport, not with arbitrary standards.