Author Topic: GH15 Question.  (Read 8873 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2007, 10:21:52 PM »
As opposed to posting one from some "rubbish" athiest/evolution site??
You can start at Harvard, Princeton, Oxford if you like.

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2007, 10:37:04 PM »
You can start at Harvard, Princeton, Oxford if you like.

Sure, but since you're so smart, you should know that those are liberal universities and are quite known for indoctrinating their students with a liberal agenda and bias curriculum!!

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2007, 11:07:11 PM »


Adonis You are an IDIOT.


And completely cluless!

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2007, 11:08:48 PM »
People have religious faith. What seems unfair to kids is that they get brought up in the faith of their parents and are indoctrinated before they are old enough to assess the worth of those beliefs. Many kids are brought up with no beliefs and then end up religious, anyway. It is pretty hard to be unaffected by the organized belief systems in various countries and at different times.

I suppose we all believe a lot of things without any evidence. Even if we had the evidence we wouldn't be able to comprehend it! For example, how come the sun emits visible light? That is not an easy phenomenon to explain. I suppose we just assume that scientists can explain it.

What about electrons and subatomic particles? How do we know they exist, etc.? Again, we have no direct knowledge of them. We do accept that there are people who do know about these things.

How about the concept God? Is this something like atoms? Well, I think not. There is no one with any direct knowledge about this concept. A lot of people think they understand what religion is all about but I doubt they appreciate what the best academic theologians understand. In the absence of any evidence or proof comes belief and faith. For some reason many brains cannot accept reality for what it is and require something beyond what is discernible. When you grow up in societies saturated with religious beliefs then those institutions influence just about everyone one way or other.

I mean, why on earth in 2007 do we have to beep out swear words? Why can't we see the brave women displaying their breasts on Jerry Springer for their beads? Even in Australia where nudity is allowed on TV after about 9 pm at night we have some censorship imposed by overseas TV standards.

America is clearly affected by religions who lobby long and hard for whatever they require from the various governments.

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2007, 11:15:29 PM »
People have religious faith. What seems unfair to kids is that they get brought up in the faith of their parents and are indoctrinated before they are old enough to assess the worth of those beliefs. Many kids are brought up with no beliefs and then end up religious, anyway. It is pretty hard to be unaffected by the organized belief systems in various countries and at different times.

I suppose we all believe a lot of things without any evidence. Even if we had the evidence we wouldn't be able to comprehend it! For example, how come the sun emits visible light? That is not an easy phenomenon to explain. I suppose we just assume that scientists can explain it.

What about electrons and subatomic particles? How do we know they exist, etc.? Again, we have no direct knowledge of them. We do accept that there are people who do know about these things.

How about the concept God? Is this something like atoms? Well, I think not. There is no one with any direct knowledge about this concept. A lot of people think they understand what religion is all about but I doubt they appreciate what the best academic theologians understand. In the absence of any evidence or proof comes belief and faith. For some reason many brains cannot accept reality for what it is and require something beyond what is discernible. When you grow up in societies saturated with religious beliefs then those institutions influence just about everyone one way or other.

I mean, why on earth in 2007 do we have to beep out swear words? Why can't we see the brave women displaying their breasts on Jerry Springer for their beads? Even in Australia where nudity is allowed on TV after about 9 pm at night we have some censorship imposed by overseas TV standards.

America is clearly affected by religions who lobby long and hard for whatever they require from the various governments.


Born into this world with two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs and a wonderful data-crunching computer system in both halves of our brains, we humans develop a perception of space as small infants. We do not have to be told that the world we live in has three dimensions: length, width, and height. It is almost intuitively obvious.

The Greek philosopher Euclid (330-275 B.C.) put this down in a mathematical format we now call plane geometry-which ruled the world for the next 2000 years-almost like a religion! In grade school we all learned that the angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees, and that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points. A line had one dimension, a square had two, and a cube, three. Beyond that it was, for centuries, thought impossible for more dimensions to exist. Aristotle and Ptolemy added their weight to Euclid by "proving" that any more than three dimensions was "impossible."1

But of course for those who believed in God, there must be a fourth dimension. God would surely live there, thus He could watch everything that was happening in our 3-D world. Medieval art even accommodated this orthodoxy-paintings were flattened and two dimensional so the viewer could (sort of) see the world as God sees it.

Until the middle of the last century there was not much talk of a possible Fourth Dimension. But a sickly, brilliant mathematician-the second of six children born to a poor Lutheran pastor-Bernhard Riemann (1826-1866) blew the world apart when he proved mathematically that more than three dimensions were not only possible but also highly likely. In a brilliant lecture on June 10, 1854 this shy, mentally unstable young man toppled the Euclidean world order once and for all.

The Math of Hyperspace

Riemann had discovered what we now called "field theory," which connects forces in the universe with the geometry of space. The Pythagorean Theorem from the Greeks had shown that in a two-dimensional world where a and b are the short sides of a triangle and c is the hypotenuse, then a2 + b2 = c2. For a cube which had sides a, b, and c, the diagonal, d, inside the cube, crossing from one corner to another was given by a2 + b2 + c2 = d2. Well, it did not stop there, because from purely mathematical considerations Riemann could imagine an N-dimensional cube whose diagonal, z, was simply given by a formula with N terms on the left side, a2 + b2 + c2 + .... = z2. The math was easy, the implications were world-shaking.

As originally conceived, the "fourth dimension" was an additional spatial dimension, and not the fourth dimension now called "time." It was Einstein who stumbled upon Riemann's pioneering work and in 1905 put 3 plus 1 together and realized that material objects not only have length, width, and height, but they also endure in time. The fourth dimension was obviously time!

Newton's physics had imagined an absolute clock somewhere in the universe that kept the time for all bodies large and small, whether at rest or in motion. So strongly embedded were the old views that the average person on the street has not yet grasped the radical nature of Einstein's revolution. But now it is clear that space and time are part of an integrated whole-what we call the "space-time" continuum."

Time as well as space can be bent, shrunk or expanded-as can the other three dimensions of the world we live. But if few ordinary people grasp what Einstein had to tell us, Riemann's revolution has had an even greater, lasting effect on physics.

However, to talk about time as the fourth dimension is to jump over 50 years of fascinating history before 1905, when the obscure little man in the Swiss patent office changed the known world all over again.

Riemann's 1854 lecture was an instant success. The world was not flat and it was not necessarily even limited to three dimensions-there might be four-or even more! God was now crowded up into the higher levels of newly discovered "hyperspace." Riemann had been friends with Wilhelm Weber, who was experimenting with electric sparks, magnets and flowing currents-so Faraday and then Maxwell were ready to apply Riemann's work to what became the very successful model we now call "electromagnetic theory."

James Clerk Maxwell, for instance, showed that moving electric charges constitute what we call current flow and flowing currents produce magnetic fields. Light waves, radio waves, and x-rays all "obey" Maxwell's elegant equations: (Diag. 1)

The first equation says that electric lines of force begin and end on charges (such as electrons). The third equation tells us that there are (apparently) no magnetic monopoles-magnetic lines are closed loops. The second and fourth equations are vector equations actually representing three equations each, and they tell us how electric and magnetic fields are related to one another. Maxwell's four equations are actually eight. However if one adopts the mathematics of Riemann space, all eight equations can be written in the following form, called "tensor notation":

Fµv = ðµAv - ðvAµ

ðµFµv = jv

The second equation says it all! It is this ability of Riemann geometry to simplify physics that is so appealing to scientists who always prefer elegance, beauty, symmetry and simplicity when attempting to explain the physical world. Introducing more dimensions, even though they can not be seen or directly measured, improves our ability to understand how the world works.

Georg Bernhard Riemann took ordinary "flat" geometry and crumpled it up, making spherical space which was positively curved, or saddle-shaped space with negative curvature. All this could now be beautifully described in the new short hand of tensors. Whole systems of simultaneous differential equations involving many dimensions could be written down and manipulated with ease.

Riemann showed that spaces could be multiply connected, as shown below. A small bug living in the flat world of the top sheet of paper could hypothetically encounter a "Riemann slit" in the fabric of his known world and inadvertently cross over into a "parallel" universe.

A strange cast of characters seized upon Riemann's ideas soon after his famous lecture. American psychic Henry Slade achieved notoriety in 1877 when Leipzig physics professor Johann Zollner rushed to the former's defense of magic parlor tricks and ghosts by claiming that what was impossible in our ordinary three-dimensional world was readily possible if a fourth dimension were added. Unfortunately, the ensuing uproar led more to popular turn-of-the-century science fiction, and an impetus for ESP and psychic research which continues to this day-more than to legitimate applications in physics. The greatest applications of Riemann's new geometry to physics had to wait half a century for Einstein and his successors.

"Flatland"

In 1884 the Christian headmaster of the City of London School, Edwin Abbott, wrote a wonderful novel about creatures who lived in an imaginary world called "Flatland."2 It was now immediately easy for ordinary people like you and me to imagine what it would be like living in a two dimensional world-on a flat sheet of paper-with occasional intrusions of "beings" from a higher three-dimensional "hyperspace." Even more fantastic science fiction now unfolded into being overnight and by the turn of the century the common man's perception of his world would never be the same.

If four dimensions are not only possible, but now certain, why not 5 or 10 or 26 dimensions? Indeed, if we jump from Einstein to the present time, that is precisely what has happened in modern physics. All this has taken place because introducing (mathematically) additional dimensions to the physical world "unifies" the laws, forces and fields of physics, and leads (usually) to simpler and more "elegant" ways of looking at the universe in which we live.

Discussion of hyperspace rapidly became very complex after Einstein-we must save that for another article. But let us note several things: It is indeed quite likely that the physical, material world we live in has many more than four dimensions.

Ten is a reasonable number to make our physics simple. Discussion of hyperspace still leaves the issue of where God now lives, since he was long ago excluded from the "fourth" dimension. Unfortunately some modern Christian apologists have implied that God is merely a higher-dimensional being, a cosmic giant who pokes his fingers into our world from time to time, alarming us with visions or miracles which we cannot fully understand. Is God a super being from another dimension?

I don't mean to imply that miracles, visions and UFO intrusions from higher dimensions do not occur! They most certainly occur and I believe they are all real extra-dimensional happenings. The point is: God is not made of matter, He is Spirit and spirit is something fundamentally different from matter.

There is an all-important point to keep in mind in our discussions of modern physics and that is that "God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) Spirit is not the same thing as matter!

We can talk endlessly about matter/energy, space and time in the created material world, but that still leaves a higher realm of God and his angels. Who are they and where do they live? What are the unseen worlds they inhabit? Beyond our amazing physical world is yet another realm where different laws apply and where time flows at a different pace.

To talk first of matter and now of spirit is also to go beyond the scope of this short introductory article. Suffice it to say, our knowledge and understanding of the physical world comes through the scientific method, which is based both on observations and on mathematical models that can be tested and verified by measurements and experiments.

The spiritual world is something we know about by personal revelation from our God.3 Most marvelous of all, God has created man to live simultaneously in the material and in the spiritual world. He wants us to be at home in two worlds-he wants us in His training program designed to prepare us for an amazing greater world which is to come.

The opening of doors for us to enter into other worlds was accomplished by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on the Cross-we live in a moral universe, and much more than physics is involved in the superhyperspace the Bible calls the "heavens."

"Since we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, 'I believed, and so I spoke,' we too believe, and so we speak, knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

2 Cor. 4:13-18


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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2007, 11:17:31 PM »

Vince B

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2007, 11:47:15 PM »
Descartes argued that the world has two realities. Material and mental realities. I think, therefore I am is Descartes proof of his existence. Modern materialists have discarded the mental world which includes the spiritual. There is no soul. No ghost in the machine. All we have is neurons and a special organization that results in consciousness. Materialists end up saying that beliefs and even values are material things.

Can a value be in a book? Or do values, such as love, require a brain to understand it? The values exist in brains and not in books.

Next thing I know some zealots here will be lighting candles for me and TA. Light them for hapless Goodrum. He needs everything he can get.

The True Adonis

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2007, 12:15:39 AM »
Descartes argued that the world has two realities. Material and mental realities. I think, therefore I am is Descartes proof of his existence. Modern materialists have discarded the mental world which includes the spiritual. There is no soul. No ghost in the machine. All we have is neurons and a special organization that results in consciousness. Materialists end up saying that beliefs and even values are material things.

Can a value be in a book? Or do values, such as love, require a brain to understand it? The values exist in brains and not in books.

Next thing I know some zealots here will be lighting candles for me and TA. Light them for hapless Goodrum. He needs everything he can get.

They have already tried to set fire to us with their candles.  You are correct, the next step is hero-worship and then emulation.  Shall we share the flock equally?

Vince B

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2007, 12:35:23 AM »
While I fear no man or religion, women are another thing, altogether. To speak in the religious vernacular, God made women to punish us men!

nukkaready

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2007, 05:39:57 AM »
Religion stands for dreams and beliefs.... Evolution stands for science and facts. Everyone can chose which side they wanna be on.

nukkaready

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2007, 05:42:47 AM »
religion vs. evolution is like supplements vs. steroids. while evolution and steroids are proven, supplements and religion need you to believe in them.

Camel Jockey

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2007, 06:40:37 AM »
Sure, but since you're so smart, you should know that those are liberal universities and are quite known for indoctrinating their students with a liberal agenda and bias curriculum!!

Top universities not teaching ID and creationist garbage is bias? And what is there to teach about creationism exactly?  ;D
 
You believe in the bible, Joe. Don't expect to be taken seriously.

Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2007, 06:45:35 AM »
Where would you place Melvin Goodrum?


Mine is actually 131
A

George Whorewell

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2007, 07:30:18 AM »
Well, it seems that despite your lack of belief in a higher power, you have found a purpose for your existance. That being said, the purpose of your existance ( arguing with inept halfwits on an internet message board about dieting, lifting and evolution) would probably prompt most sane individuals to embrace religion steadfastly. Kudos for staying true to your faith or lack their of. lol

Vince B

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2007, 08:33:23 AM »
Quote
Mine is actually 131

Did you do one of those online tests? Easy to cheat by redoing the test. If you score a genuine 132+ you can be in Mensa which is the top 2% of the population.

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2007, 09:14:43 AM »
religion vs. evolution is like supplements vs. steroids. while evolution and steroids are proven, supplements and religion need you to believe in them.

Evolution has never been proven either and thats why they call it a theorie, the theories of evolution are changed all the time proving they have nothing concrete and there are thousands of things in the universe that they cannot explain.....BTW, what a rediculous comparison you gave ::)

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2007, 09:27:31 AM »
Evolution has never been proven either and thats why they call it a theorie, the theories of evolution are changed all the time proving they have nothing concrete and there are thousands of things in the universe that they cannot explain.....BTW, what a rediculous comparison you gave ::)

Changed all the time? Natural selection has remained constant since Darwin first published 'Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection' in the late 1800's. Don't bash it because you don't understand it.

You're a a fucking moron. We are learning and discovering more and more everyday. These things are being tried, tested and are benefiting our race. Moving us forward everyday, that's science for you.

You automatically think just because are things in the universe physicists cannot yet explain, it by default makes your bullshit creationist garbage true. Atleast science can be tried and test, while religion can't. Religion rests on pure belief and should not even be discussed or compared to science.

nukkaready

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2007, 12:51:24 PM »
Evolution has never been proven either and thats why they call it a theorie, the theories of evolution are changed all the time proving they have nothing concrete and there are thousands of things in the universe that they cannot explain.....BTW, what a rediculous comparison you gave ::)

Evolution has already been proven. It is a fact not a theorie. What we are learning now are more and more evolutionary details and over time science will be able to explain everything. If it makes your life better there is nothing wrong in believing in the bible... why not? Other than barking up the wrong tree...

Necrosis

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2007, 12:57:25 PM »
if it were a fact there would no debates about it in the scientific world, there have only been theories not facts in relation to "evolution" and considering most of the theories have been debunked that pretty much puts you're disbeliefs in the crapper!

Speaking of fiction.....how that 225X13 DL video coming along?

man your ignorant!!! EVOLUTION is a fact you have no idea about genetics,ecology etc..

the debates are because others have different views, that doesnt mean they are correct.

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2007, 01:03:03 PM »
It affects all of our policies regarding disease, medicine, technological progress, enviromental issues, scientific progress, etc...


When the truth it available, it makes no sense to believe in something false, especially when it will effect many more people.

Religion and Faith( the unwarranted belief with no evidence) are viruses.

your a moron too. your ignoring all the good religion does for the world, and all hope and joy faith brings to so many people. Your jumping to the conclusion that there is no soul, is no god, and is no other reality. I also bet fishes dont beleive water exists.

im not saying that you can prove there is a god, for if there was, proof would be impossible as it would be supernatural.

religion however does make people believe in alot of non-sense and illogic. If god or something like him does exist, he is seperate, sin does not matter etc... etc....

im a pantheist of sorts, god of the bible doesnt exist, and if he does he is trying to cover it up.

nukkaready

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2007, 01:11:06 PM »
your a moron too. your ignoring all the good religion does for the world, and all hope and joy faith brings to so many people. Your jumping to the conclusion that there is no soul, is no god, and is no other reality. I also bet fishes dont beleive water exists.

im not saying that you can prove there is a god, for if there was, proof would be impossible as it would be supernatural.

religion however does make people believe in alot of non-sense and illogic. If god or something like him does exist, he is seperate, sin does not matter etc... etc....

im a pantheist of sorts, god of the bible doesnt exist, and if he does he is trying to cover it up.


well... there can only be evolution or god... both can not exist at the same time... since evolution has been proven there is no god.

Camel Jockey

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2007, 01:13:04 PM »

well... there can only be evolution or god... both can not exist at the same time... since evolution has been proven there is no god.

Some appologists are going to revise their beliefs around evolution.

Necrosis

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2007, 03:38:30 PM »

well... there can only be evolution or god... both can not exist at the same time... since evolution has been proven there is no god.

were did you learn this GARBAGE ahhaah.

god could purposely serperate himself(which is the only possible way for true existence) and use evolution to allow creation to unfold. Also god could be everything and all there is, including evolution. you have a narrow view of GOD, read spinoza,aquinas,cs lewis etc... get different perspectives. I agree god of the bible does not exist, if he does he is a absent father, but evolution does not rule out god, that follows the logic that any natural process rules out god. He is either everything or nothing imo. He doesnt get to pick and choose what events to participate in. So if evolution is incorrect, then god allows stars to form through fusion, but creates life here and there? there has to be a more logical framework.

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2007, 12:14:08 AM »
There is no god.  And while we are at it, did you know there has not been one single shred of anything to contradict Evolution.  Not one shred of anything has ever poked a single hole in Evolution.  It is about the most sound FACT in Science.



your an idiot, if this is a FACT lol it would mean we are all still evolving,,where are the half human half monkey,,people ,,oh shit forgot who i was talking to then yes your facts are sound , and u are what we have evolved from

Necrosis

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Re: GH15 Question.
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2007, 05:51:55 AM »
your an idiot, if this is a FACT lol it would mean we are all still evolving,,where are the half human half monkey,,people ,,oh shit forgot who i was talking to then yes your facts are sound , and u are what we have evolved from

jesus your an idiot...

is this what people in america think, i admit macro evolution is the hardest to swallow but correlation in gene sequences indicate it to be so, read the langauge of god by crick.

it is a fact.