Mike Mentzer training on HITting biceps

[pumpster]

once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.

comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.

so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.

it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.

it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.

key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly.

it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.

thos who do it right - and actually understand it, all gain weight and muscle as mike describes.

the fact is that it has to be better than other forms of training that work on the same principles but are less efficient.

the only other principle that has some merit is the workload approach where the training attempts to maximise the stress over a given time frame by moving through the maximum load points of an exercise frequently....this can be done with higher reps and short range.
the trick is to also learn the movements so your body recruits the most muscle to do the work- not master it- when you master a movement your body actually starts to recruit less muscle....

its analogous to learning any new skill. take juggling for example. when you start it seems impossible. the next time you try you geta bit better. each time you try, your brain is sorting out how much effort is required to do the task. eventually you recruit enough brain involvement to do the task. As you master it, your brain configures itself to do it better and better. Eventually you can do it easily. in fact its hard to un learn.

when you get to that point you should try something different (not necessarily harder)- so your brain does not start to optimise its learning by trying to use less and less involvement.

thats why its not an easy and simple progression from 3 juggling items to 4 and from 4 to 5 and so on.

thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.

you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.

so give MM a break..he was banging his head against a brick wall trying to get people to understand.

What else do you expect from getbiggers with attention spans equivalent to birds?

[Livewire]

are there any HIT success stories?  yates maybe?

[D.L. 5]

HIT is as intense as weight training can possibly be in my opinion. Leg day was beyond cruel.

seriously, i know guys who have competed and are tough bastards, they did one workout with h.i.t and said 'fuck this shit' cos it was so intense and draining.

and yes leg day is nasty and gets u sore for days, sometimes u think it would be easier not to fully max out on failure cos as u get better the intensity and pain gets bigger as im sure u know.

I have been doing h.i.t for 6 months and feel better on all levels, getting great results, no impact on the joints like my former training methods (the conventional way)

the only thing i dislike is the post-stress on the body of the workout, it is so intense it literally drains u for days. however, the results make it worthwhile.

[D.L. 5]

are there any HIT success stories?  yates maybe?

first to those saying mike sounds fucked up in the clip 'well no shit! the guy died of a stroke after filming it' anyone can see that he was not in good health there, and also it is well documented he had heart troubles in the last stages of his life.

to answer ur question - there are several successes. Now with dorian yates here is the key difference between dorian and h.i.t. Dorian took the principle of going to complete failure on one set of each exercise in the same wat h.i.t advocates. dorian had the lowest volume out of any mr. olympia and probably out of any pro bodybuilder.

there are a couple key differences between dorian and mike's true h.i.t regime:

1- Dorian did a few more exercises and there was more overlap (h.i.t advocates only 10 sets for the upperbody during a cycle of workout - eg- 2 upperbody workouts with 5 sets each workout)

2- Dorian did not use the slower rep speed of 4 second positive and 4 second negative. this is the reason he injured several muscles, and i cannot believe he did not injure himself more. I VEHEMENTLY STRESS that h.i.t should never be used with a normal rep speed it is a recipe for injury and joint damage! slow rep speed takes the force out of the use of heavy weight. heavy weight with force will give size but will damage ur body.

3 - dorian rested less than advocated by h.i.t. h.i.t is once every 5 days, dorian was like 3 times per week.

[knny187]

Mike really looked out of it in that clip

Hell...I think at one point he wanted that guy not to finsish his last rep because he was tired of talking

[SteelePegasus]

everyone tries HIT for a week or two.

it looks so good on paper

working out is over rated..I tried it once, then I realized that I could bench 500 for reps on Getbig and do 225 for 112 reps deadlifts

[suckmymuscle]

first to those saying mike sounds fucked up in the clip 'well no shit! the guy died of a stroke after filming it' anyone can see that he was not in good health there, and also it is well documented he had heart troubles in the last stages of his life.

to answer ur question - there are several successes. Now with dorian yates here is the key difference between dorian and h.i.t. Dorian took the principle of going to complete failure on one set of each exercise in the same wat h.i.t advocates. dorian had the lowest volume out of any mr. olympia and probably out of any pro bodybuilder.

there are a couple key differences between dorian and mike's true h.i.t regime:

1- Dorian did a few more exercises and there was more overlap (h.i.t advocates only 10 sets for the upperbody during a cycle of workout - eg- 2 upperbody workouts with 5 sets each workout)

2- Dorian did not use the slower rep speed of 4 second positive and 4 second negative. this is the reason he injured several muscles, and i cannot believe he did not injure himself more. I VEHEMENTLY STRESS that h.i.t should never be used with a normal rep speed it is a recipe for injury and joint damage! slow rep speed takes the force out of the use of heavy weight. heavy weight with force will give size but will damage ur body.

3 - dorian rested less than advocated by h.i.t. h.i.t is once every 5 days, dorian was like 3 times per week.

  In other words: Dorian was a titan of will-power and determination who took it too far and ruined himself. The paradox is that, if he were a little lazier and less determined, he would probably have avoided injuries and won 10 Olympias. Funny World, where a man is punished for being too tenacious and determined...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Van_Bilderass]

it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.

That's not what Mike said. The results would be dramatic and pretty much instantaneous. In fact, Mike said a bodybuilder could reach his full potential in about 1 YEAR! So I don't know why you would have to try it for 6 months to properly evaluate the effects.

Of course, Mike misunderstood the science of hypertrophy and/or simply hadn't researched it much at all. Because there IS exercise science that gives a pretty good idea of what causes hypertrophy and Mike got a lot of it wrong. He particularly overemphasized the importance of failure and also the amount of rest one needs between sessions. For example, he thought that first you recovered from the workout - this would take days - and THEN you would grow. Actually, you grow the most in the first few hours after a training bout (when synthesis of proteins exceeds the breakdown of same).

[climber]

haha 1% is beyond is exaggerating. My squat is STILL 30 pounds below my best, MONTHS later. I didn't "bail" on it, I just had enough. When you go through 6 weeks of that and don't miss training normally you come back to prove me a fool.

What are you suggesting, that I lied about my loss of strength? Why on earth would I do that? I made an HIT log to educate others and I gave my honest final opinion. It causes a significant drop in strength on all lifts but is good as a shock routine to spark muscle growth. Definetely not a good long-term type of routine. It's a thrill. If you love intensity give it a try for 1-4 weeks.

That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.

[figgs]

That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.

100% untrue. My drive is petal to the metal.

[climber]

100% untrue. My drive is petal to the metal.

figgs, what is your best squat?

[figgs]

think how i feel...been doing it for 6 months!

my life becomes warped once per week after that workout. in fact i did legs on monday. its friday now and they are still drained!

Damn dude! 6 months! I had to bail out after 6 weeks! I just enjoy the volume trainer far more. I wouldn't do HIT for any longer than 4 weeks at this point even knowing it's a great routine for size.

Have you ever went back on the old way of training at any point in the past 6 months? I'm curious how HIT has effected your strength.

[figgs]

what is your best squat?

335 for 7 reps is my best squat.

Imagine being able to squat 335 for reps one day and a few weeks later not even being able to rep with 315.

My squats were steadily increasing when I decided to stray from the typical 6-12 rep range with leg presses and squats to doing 10-20 reps before I busted my finger. I couldn't squat for a while and even caught the flu the first week of my injury and now I'm back at it with a leg press near my peak strength and a squat that goes up 3 reps a week so far! So I do have that good news but I was struggling for a while. Keep in mind I was on HIT december-january. I still havn't got back my 335 for 7, or many other lifts, like incline DB presses, military presses, bb rows, flyes.

[climber]

335 for 7 reps is my best squat.

Imagine being able to squat 335 for reps one day and a few weeks later not even being able to rep with 315.

My squats were steadily increasing when I decided to stray from the typical 6-12 rep range with leg presses and squats to doing 10-20 reps before I busted my finger. I couldn't squat for a while and even caught the flu the first week of my injury and now I'm back at it with a leg press near my peak strength and a squat that goes up 3 reps a week so far! So I do have that good news but I was struggling for a while. Keep in mind I was on HIT december-january. I still havn't got back my 335 for 7, or many other lifts, like incline DB presses, military presses, bb rows, flyes.

sounds like you've got it sorted. have you tried throwing in a complete week off from training every few months or so? I always find that I set new personal records after a week off...

[figgs]

sounds like you've got it sorted. have you tried throwing in a complete week off from training every few months or so? I always find that I set new personal records after a week off...

Yes I have taken about 3 weeks off since HIT and it really refreshes my muscles! They're more ready than ever for intense training after a week off.

[Hedgehog]

lol you're rediculous what I'm about to say I had to say at least a dozen times to you before.

While training HIT you can't tell that you'd be much weaker on all of your lifts when you go back to traditional training methods, and that's why I was happy with my gains at the time, which I did get. But when I stopped HIT and realized how much strength I lost (I'm still not back to my peak strength months later), I lost all enthusiasm for the training program. I value strength as much as size.

I think you definitely could use HIT for bursts of 4-5 weeks. I know Poliquin has a arm protocol that looks something like this:

4 weeks of GVT (German Volume Training)

4 weeks of traditional volume training 8-10 reps, twice a week

4 weeks of HIT

4 weeks of something else, probably heavy and low reps?

I think you're supposed to start it or end it with the 12 hour arm blitz?

You know, where you do one set of curls and french presses every half hour for 12 hour straight, with a fairly moderate weight.

Google the net or check his website for it, maybe t-mag has it too.

Anyway, as far as the Heavy Duty training goes, it won't recruit all of the Fast Twitch fibers, since you're using low weights, and slow cadence.

It does a good job of recruiting the Slow Twitch however.

To grow a muscle fiber, it needs to be trained. That's why you won't grow to your full potential if staying true to the Heavy Duty protocol. The rep cadence is too slow (especially when contracting), allowing too light weights IMO.


figgs: Do some HIT every once in a while, if you believe you get gains while on it. The loss of strength you suffer, is because of the fiber conversion, you convert from Fast Twitch to Slow Twitch. You should have more endurance these days though. Ie weaker 1RM but a stronger 10RM.

-Hedge

[D.L. 5]

  In other words: Dorian was a titan of will-power and determination who took it too far and ruined himself. The paradox is that, if he were a little lazier and less determined, he would probably have avoided injuries and won 10 Olympias. Funny World, where a man is punished for being too tenacious and determined...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

no one mentioned lack of determination but yourself.

he lifted in a riskier manner and got injured thats all there is to it.

[James Blunt]

once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.

comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.

so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.

it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.

it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.

key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly.

it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.

thos who do it right - and actually understand it, all gain weight and muscle as mike describes.

the fact is that it has to be better than other forms of training that work on the same principles but are less efficient.

the only other principle that has some merit is the workload approach where the training attempts to maximise the stress over a given time frame by moving through the maximum load points of an exercise frequently....this can be done with higher reps and short range.
the trick is to also learn the movements so your body recruits the most muscle to do the work- not master it- when you master a movement your body actually starts to recruit less muscle....

its analogous to learning any new skill. take juggling for example. when you start it seems impossible. the next time you try you geta bit better. each time you try, your brain is sorting out how much effort is required to do the task. eventually you recruit enough brain involvement to do the task. As you master it, your brain configures itself to do it better and better. Eventually you can do it easily. in fact its hard to un learn.

when you get to that point you should try something different (not necessarily harder)- so your brain does not start to optimise its learning by trying to use less and less involvement.

thats why its not an easy and simple progression from 3 juggling items to 4 and from 4 to 5 and so on.

thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.

you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.

so give MM a break..he was banging his head against a brick wall trying to get people to understand.

Great post. I learned a litttle there.

[pumpster]

That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.

I hope Figgs will realize from this that he was and is a little irrational and emotional, justifying his extreme love then hate of HIT by something really silly like "i lost 30 lb." boo hoo get over it, give any program that seems to yield results a few months instead of over-reacting for what aren't viable reasons. Basically Figgs over-analyzed based on a numbers fixation, and panicked instead of sticking with it.

And stop attacking the messenger kid, you keep resisting constructive criticism because your psyche is so damn fragile. Look at it analytically instead of melting down; i see it objectively, you don't.

[D.L. 5]

building his whole premise over a lower lift is not the best approach especially considering the programs involve to different styles of lifting.

the h.i.t and non-h.i.t debate can go on forever. its just a way i decide to live my life and thats right:

"H.I.T IS A WAY OF LIFE!"

R.I.P MIKE MENTZER!

[bmacsys]

lmao what's the matter with you? I had an HIT log here on getbig months ago and when I said it sucked for making me weak as shit you couldn't understand why a bodybuilder would care anything about strength as long as he's getting bigger. And you're still bitching about it to this day when I made it clear so many itmes before!!!

Dude, you did the impossible. Your muscles grew but you lost strength? That doesn't sound very logical. Lets get this straight, you gained lean muscle tissue but grew weaker?

[bmacsys]

    Was Mike smoking weed during that taping ?

Cut him some slack. He died THAT VERY NIGHT.

[bmacsys]

For all you HIT bashers. Consider this- HIT has a premise and reasoning behind it. What other so-called training protocals have any kind of logic behind them? I'll answer that. NONE.

[D.L. 5]

For all you HIT bashers. Consider this- HIT has a premise and reasoning behind it. What other so-called training protocals have any kind of logic behind them? I'll answer that. NONE.

its the only complete exercise science theory of bodybuilding.

he even constructed heavy duty in the format of an academic thesis.

[Option D]

everyone tries HIT for a week or two.

it looks so good on paper

i tried one day