Attitudes Toward the Bible

[columbusdude82]

columbusdude, how did you know that was in the Psalms?  Do you have a spiritual background and if so would you share what it is (if you are comfortable).

Do you have any people that you "look up to?"

It's the opening line from Psalm 14, I think. You don't need to have a spiritual background to know that. The Bible is a very cool book to read sometimes, and a minimum knowledge of the Bible is essential to understanding literature and art and culure. You don't need to have a "spiritual background" for that.

To answer your question though, yes I was born, raised, and baptized Catholic, and went to Catholic school, and was steeped in Christianity. When I came to Ohio State, I also experimented with "fundamentalist" protestant Christianity.

To answer your other question, no, not really. Returning to the question I asked, how much "moral guidance" can one draw from the tales and fables of ancient tribal squabbles in the Near East? So much of the Bible is just plain bizarre. So many moral dilemmas relevant to us are better dealt with in Shakepseare and Dickens than Joshua and Judges, don't you think?

[columbusdude82]

The Midianites were oppressive and hostile to the Israelites.  They were often raiding Israel with the use of swift camels.

What about the children? And presumably the Hebrews were not hostile? There you have it, an old tribal squabble over land and resources, and the victors commit great carnage and attribute it to their god. In that respect, the Hebrews are no different from any of the other tribes of the Orient.

Yeah, the Philistines, an evil and oppressive people.  And their foreskins were chopped off by David's army, not on order of God, but on order of King Saul, a king God rejected.

Since you like quoting scripture, ladies, what do you think of 2 Samuel 3:14, which says "Then David sent messengers to Ish-Bosheth son of Saul, demanding, "Give me my wife Michal, whom I betrothed to myself for the price of a hundred Philistine foreskins." (I've always liked quoting it to annoy girls )
And you tell me the Bible isn't bizarre???

The "prank" was played by Isaac's mother.  Isaac's older brother is the one who sold his birth right for a bowl of beans.

This is the prank I had in mind:
Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Come on, Abe, I was just messing with you. Does God have a sense of humor or what? Presumably Loco, if God were to "tell" you to sacrifice your son for him, you'd do as Abraham did?

God did not command Israel to destroy every nation in the promised land.  God commanded Israel to destroy only certain nations that were evil, involved in human sacrifice, or were oppressive toward Israel upon Israel's arrival or they were oppressive toward surrounding nations.

Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.

I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?

Funny how people here are bothered that God destroyed these evil and oppressive nations. 

Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West? God speaks to them just as he spoke to the Hebrews!!!

[columbusdude82]

Man, I hear alot of hurt & anger in your posts.  I know you've said that you're not angry, but it's hard to see where you're not.  

No man, I am not angry. It bothers me, though, that intelligent, educated people can't see what an obvious forgery so much of this stuff is. I think it mostly goes back to children being indoctrinated in their early, innocent youth. We are all taught what Stephen Jay Gould called "NOMA" (Non-Overlapping Magisteria).

Reason and faith, we are told, operate in two non-overlapping magisteria. Reason belongs in math and science and history class, in learning to balance our checkbooks and spend or save our money, etc, and faith is in religious education class, church, etc... Supposedly, one deals with the "age of rocks," and the other with the "rock of ages." One tells us "how to get to heaven," and the other "how the heavens go."

In practice, teaching children "faith" means teaching them to suspend their reason and faculties of critical thinking. Thus, we are told to accept, WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER, that a man (who is also God and the son of God) with no human father was born from a virgin (who, many Christians like to think, remained a virgin even after his birth) etc etc etc

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For the massive whoppers of claims it makes, religion (any religion) should have solid, irrefutable evidence if it wants people to take it seriously. It has none, however. What it does have, is access to children's minds to teach them that this is the one area where they are not supposed to exercise their faculties of reason and intellect.

[Colossus_500]

No man, I am not angry. It bothers me, though, that intelligent, educated people can't see what an obvious forgery so much of this stuff is. I think it mostly goes back to children being indoctrinated in their early, innocent youth. We are all taught what Stephen Jay Gould called "NOMA" (Non-Overlapping Magisteria).

Reason and faith, we are told, operate in two non-overlapping magisteria. Reason belongs in math and science and history class, in learning to balance our checkbooks and spend or save our money, etc, and faith is in religious education class, church, etc... Supposedly, one deals with the "age of rocks," and the other with the "rock of ages." One tells us "how to get to heaven," and the other "how the heavens go."

In practice, teaching children "faith" means teaching them to suspend their reason and faculties of critical thinking. Thus, we are told to accept, WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER, that a man (who is also God and the son of God) with no human father was born from a virgin (who, many Christians like to think, remained a virgin even after his birth) etc etc etc

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For the massive whoppers of claims it makes, religion (any religion) should have solid, irrefutable evidence if it wants people to take it seriously. It has none, however. What it does have, is access to children's minds to teach them that this is the one area where they are not supposed to exercise their faculties of reason and intellect.

Stephen Jay Gould is also quoted saying:

"To say it for all my colleagues and for the umpteenth million time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God’s possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can’t comment on it as scientists."

[columbusdude82]

Yes he did. What makes him think that various religions have more to say on the matter than rigorous science?

Think of all the contradictory religions that claim exclusive truth and presume that all other faiths are false. At most one of all these faiths is true. (Either just one is true, or all are false. But no two can both be true.) This demands humility on the part of every faith.

Science cannot "disprove" the Judeo-Christian God, but neither can it "disprove" Zeus. It doesn't mean the existence of either one is likely

[Decker]

O R T H O D O X Y
 

That's a good one hahahaha.

[loco]

What about the children?

What about the children?  I don't know.  I do not have all the answers.  Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge?  That actually happened, in more than one occasion.  And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do.  I don't like it, but that's life.  But these stories serve as lessons to us so that we are aware that our choice may affect generations to come, in a positive or negative way.  It's a reality and God warns us about this.

Since you like quoting scripture, ladies, what do you think of 2 Samuel 3:14, which says "Then David sent messengers to Ish-Bosheth son of Saul, demanding, "Give me my wife Michal, whom I betrothed to myself for the price of a hundred Philistine foreskins." (I've always liked quoting it to annoy girls )
And you tell me the Bible isn't bizarre???

David did not have any possessions to offer Saul for his bride, a custom accepted in many cultures, even today in Chinese and Indian culture.  Women in these cultures do not have a problem with this and actually see it as flattery.  Saul did not want to give David his daughter in marriage.  So Saul gave David what he thought an impossible task in exchange for his daughter, to kill 100 Philistines and bring to Saul their foreskins.  Saul must have thought David would not even try, or try and fail.  David killed instead 200 Philistines and brought Saul their foreskins. 

This might offend you because of your culture.  But women in those days would have given anything to be with the famous warrior David, and any of them would have been flattered to know David chopped the tips of 200 Philistine wieners, not a fun task I'm sure, for a woman.

This is the prank I had in mind:
Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Come on, Abe, I was just messing with you. Does God have a sense of humor or what? Presumably Loco, if God were to "tell" you to sacrifice your son for him, you'd do as Abraham did?

My apologies.  I got Isaac and Jacob mixed up.  Sorry! 

This is not a prank, but a test of faith.  Would I do as Abraham did if God asked me to do the same thing?  I don't know.  I wish I had the faith of Abraham.

And presumably the Hebrews were not hostile? There you have it, an old tribal squabble over land and resources, and the victors commit great carnage and attribute it to their god. In that respect, the Hebrews are no different from any of the other tribes of the Orient.

Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.

Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West? God speaks to them just as he spoke to the Hebrews!!!

Israel was truly commanded by God to destroy these evil nations. 
1. God actually spoke to them, not just Moses, but all of Israel at Mount Sinai.  Israel also witnessed many miracles that showed it was God that was telling them what to do.
2. Israel disobeyed God's command to completely destroy an evil nation in more than one occasion, not because they felt that it was wrong, but because they wanted to keep the people as slaves, and to keep their possessions.  God punished Israel for this.  So how then can they have been acting on their own?

But that was then and that was Israel.
Yes, it bothers me when anyone, even Christians, do something and then say "God told me so."  God did not tell them so.  That is completely different.

I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?

God could have.  God can do whatever He wants to do.  God has punished wickedness in many ways, as He sees fit, by using His own creation, whether it is nature or Israel, Babylon, Xerxes or Alexander The Great.

[columbusdude82]

Would I do as Abraham did if God asked me to do the same thing?  I don't know.  I wish I had the faith of Abraham.

I sincerely hope you won't slaughter your children just because you hear voices in your head telling you to do so.

I am horrified that "faith" in our culture is treated like such a high and noble thing. Have faith, faith in any religion. Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Hindu... as long as you believe in some far-fetched magical stories, then you are a good person. Then it don't matter how many people you kill or hurt, or how much evil you do, as long as you say you "believe in" the baby Jesus, then all will be well...

Yes, it bothers me when anyone, even Christians, do something and then say "God told me so."  God did not tell them so.  That is completely different.

Yes, of course... When God speaks to the Hebrews and tells them to go murder and pillage, that's divine. When God speaks to Muslims and tells them to go kill Jews and infidels, that's not God talking... Completely different. Presumably you have solid, irrefutable evidence that God told the former but not the latter...

Incidentally, doesn't it bother you what a schizo Yahweh is? I mean, first he tells them "Thou shalt not kill" (by which, it seems, he meant "Thou shalt not kill another Jew"). Then, a couple books later in the Bible, he sends them out on these missions to kill other people in large numbers (even the women and children) and take their land. The only human lives that matter to him are those of his "chosen people." Then a few centuries later, he becomes "God the Father," big cuddly daddy-type in the sky who "so loved the world" he sent himself, also his son, Gentle Jesus meek and mild, to save us all...

Then six centuries later, he forgets the Hebrews, sends his angel to the Arabs of the desert with yet another revelation mostly plagiarized from the first two...

Then, 1200 years later, he sends an as-yet-unknown angel, Moroni, to Joseph Smith to inform us that some old Hebrews had traveled to America around 600 BC and that Jesus had visited them in America in AD 34 after flying out of Jerusalem. These Hebrews had gone on to become the native Americans, who had no idea they were really of Jewish descent.

My friend, these religions are all very obviously shameless forgeries of one another. God did not create man in his image. Man created God in his image, in the image of the pettiest, angriest, most jealous, vainest, meanest, third-grade schoolyard bully of a man...

God has punished wickedness in many ways, as He sees fit, by using His own creation, whether it is nature or Israel, Babylon, Xerxes or Alexander The Great.

... or, according to America's religious right, Osama bin Laden!!!

[loco]

I sincerely hope you won't slaughter your children just because you hear voices in your head telling you to do so.

Don't worry!  Were I Abraham in Abraham's time, I don't know what I would do if God tested my faith as He did with Abraham.
 
Were I, loco, to hear a voice in my head today telling me to sacrifice my child for God, I would not do it.  Here is why:
 
1.  It is written that God did not want Abraham to sacrifice his son for God.  God was only testing Abraham's faith.  In the Bible, that was the only time that God tested a person's faith in that way.  This shows us that God does not want human sacrifice.
 
2. It is written that many years after Abraham's time, God said:

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire

So it is clear that God would not want any of us to sacrifice our children to Him.  To God, such a thing is detestable.  If I heard a voice in my head telling me to do such a thing, I would know that this is NOT the voice of God, but rather the voice from Satan or simply me going insane..truly loco in the head.  I do not listen to voices in my head, not that I have heard any so far.  I listen only the the Word of God in the Bible and to the Holy Spirit in me, who never contradicts the Bible.  I use the Bible to test and identify false voices, false spirits, false teachers and false prophets. 

I am horrified that "faith" in our culture is treated like such a high and noble thing. Have faith, faith in any religion. Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Hindu... as long as you believe in some far-fetched magical stories, then you are a good person. Then it don't matter how many people you kill or hurt, or how much evil you do, as long as you say you "believe in" the baby Jesus, then all will be well...

What's wrong with believing through faith that this is God's word?  What's wrong with practicing this in faith?

Exodus

"Honor thy father and thy mother." 20:12

"Thou shalt not kill." 20:13

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." 20:14

"Thou shalt not steal." 20:15

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 20:16

Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children. 22:21-22

Value the truth; don't lie. 23:1

Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong. 23:2

Be kind to your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 23:4-5

Treat the poor fairly. 23:6

Be honest. Don't kill the innocent. 23:7

Don't mistreat strangers. 23:9

Every seventh year the Israelites were to leave their fields unharvested, so that the poor would have something to eat. 23:11

Luke

Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely. 3:14

Love you enemies; do good to those who hate you. 6:27

The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated. 6:31-34

"Love your enemies." 6:35

"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." 6:36

Don't judge or condemn others. Forgive those who have offended you. 6:37

Jesus warns against hypocrisy. 6:41

Love thy neighbor as thyself. 10:27

Yes, of course... When God speaks to the Hebrews and tells them to go murder and pillage, that's divine. When God speaks to Muslims and tells them to go kill Jews and infidels, that's not God talking... Completely different.

Not that this proves anything, but it is worth mentioning. 

What do Muslims have to say?  "God told me so, not directly, but through the prophet Mohamed who heard it, not directly from God, but indirectly through the angel Gabriel."

What do Jews say?  "God spoke to us, all of us, directly.  All of Israel stood at the foot of mount Sinai and all of Israel heard God's loud voice give us the law.

Then there is the Bible accuracies, fulfilled prophecies, and Bible archeology.  Then there is also the return of Israel to the promised land in our generation, the re-birth of Israel in only one day, the Six Day War(They fought for 6 days and on the 7th day they rested. Israel's enemies surrendered after six days of fighting.), etc.

Ever stop to think why the Jews are the only ancient people who have kept their identity, their heritage, their culture, their language and their religion?  Look at Egypt and Iran?  They are nothing like they used to be.  The Jews have remained the same.  Not even the Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman empires could force their language, culture and religion on them.  Not even the Muslims or the Roman Catholic church could change them.  Israel truly is God's people.

Why do I believe the Jews?  Because Jesus, a Jew, changed my life.  I believe in Jesus, and if I believe in Jesus, then I also must believe that everything that Jesus says in the New Testament of the Bible is true.  And Jesus said that everything in the Old Testament is true.  Therefore, I believe everything that the Old Testament says and therefore I believe the Jews. 

Presumably you have solid, irrefutable evidence that God told the former but not the latter...

Yes, Israel did at the time.

Incidentally, doesn't it bother you what a schizo Yahweh is? I mean, first he tells them "Thou shalt not kill" (by which, it seems, he meant "Thou shalt not kill another Jew"). Then, a couple books later in the Bible, he sends them out on these missions to kill other people in large numbers (even the women and children) and take their land. The only human lives that matter to him are those of his "chosen people."

There is a huge difference between murder and capital punishment.  US Courts and states send criminals to the electric chair, gas chamber or to their death by lethal injection.   Doesn't it bother you that US law says "Thou shall not kill", yet you kill a criminal because he/she killed?

Yes, it bothers me that God would send Israel to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust God's wisdom and justice.  God gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.

Then a few centuries later, he becomes "God the Father," big cuddly daddy-type in the sky who "so loved the world" he sent himself, also his son, Gentle Jesus meek and mild, to save us all...

Then six centuries later, he forgets the Hebrews, sends his angel to the Arabs of the desert with yet another revelation mostly plagiarized from the first two...

Then, 1200 years later, he sends an as-yet-unknown angel, Moroni, to Joseph Smith to inform us that some old Hebrews had traveled to America around 600 BC and that Jesus had visited them in America in AD 34 after flying out of Jerusalem. These Hebrews had gone on to become the native Americans, who had no idea they were really of Jewish descent.

My friend, these religions are all very obviously shameless forgeries of one another. God did not create man in his image. Man created God in his image, in the image of the pettiest, angriest, most jealous, vainest, meanest, third-grade schoolyard bully of a man...
... or, according to America's religious right, Osama bin Laden!!!

I am going to have to let somebody else discuss this last part with you.  I do not believe that God is a "big cuddly daddy-type in the sky" and I do not believe that God used Osama bin Laden to punish America.  God is good, just and patient.  But God is also one to be feared and respected.  He will punish and destroy the wicked, but God prefers that the wicked repents and be forgiven.

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

[columbusdude82]

Were I, loco, to hear a voice in my head today telling me to sacrifice my child for God, I would not do it.

My heart rejoices... for your children's sake

So it is clear that God would not want any of us to sacrifice our children to Him.  To God, such a thing is detestable.

Read up on your scripture man!!!! From Judges 11:

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!

What's wrong with believing through faith that this is God's word?

Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended. You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders. But that makes you one of "little faith." You won't kill your children because your reason holds some sway over your faith, so you rationalized it away. Surely, the suicide bomber who answers God's call to kill is far more faithful than you! He practices what he preaches!!!

As for all those good acts you mention, they don't mean your faith is "right." They can just as well be practiced by a Muslim, a Jew, an Atheist, or a Buddhist. We don't need faith and supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good.

What's wrong with practicing this in faith?

Once again, faith is the suspension of reason. Your faith may be leading you to be good, but you can be good any way. Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.

Not that this proves anything, but it is worth mentioning. 

No it doesn't. None of that shows why when God speaks to Jews, or Christians, or you, it's actually God speaking, but when God speaks to Muslims and tells them to blow shit up it isn't really God speaking. Incidentally, if the Jews are God's people, why hasn't he taken the time in the past 2000 years to send them a memo saying Judaism is over and he has a new revelation for them? Or has he stopped speaking to them ever since he started speaking to the Gentiles and Arabs?

 The rest of your logic is so fallacious and contorted (no offense meant) that it is one non sequitur after another after another.

Ever stop to think why the Jews are the only ancient people who have kept their identity, their heritage, their culture, their language and their religion?

What about the Aborigines of Australia? Or the other Pacific islanders? Or the Arabs? Their languages and religions still exist. In fact, whereas the Hebrew language changed (the influence of Yiddish etc) Arabic is still the same today as it was in the time of Mohammed. In fact, God forgot the Jews and let them be persecuted for centuries, but he helped the Muslims conquer the Orient, northern Africa, Spain, southeastern Europe, parts of France, and central Asia all the way to the borders of China. God let the Muslims conquer the Christian Byzantine empire and defeat the Crusaders. So your claims prove nothing yet again.

You seem to use the word "believe" over and over, yet you admit not having seen a single shred of evidence. You believe because you believe because you believe. How do you know that what Jesus said in the Bible is what Jesus really said? Why don't you also believe in "The Book of Mormon: A second testament of Jesus Christ"? It's just a matter of personal preference for you.

Yes, it bothers me that God would send Israel to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust God's wisdom and justice.  God gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.

You probably don't know how scary that sounds. Let me change just two nouns...

Yes, it bothers me that Allah would send the Arabs to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust Allah's wisdom and justice.  Allah gave these nations [presumably the USA and the West] many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only Allah creates life and only Allah can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.

Sounds like something you'd hear on a cassette tape from a cave in Afghanistan? It is just as valid as the statement you made.

[Butterbean]

Do you have any people that you "look up to?"

To answer your other question, no, not really.

Would you say that you are the most morally upright person that you know?



Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God."  It was a vow Jephthah made on his own.  He killed his daughter all on his own.

[columbusdude82]

I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).

I am glad to say, however, that I have a clear conscience and I do the best I know

[loco]

I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).

You don't?  But you do.  It is all you've been doing on this board.   

I am glad to say, however, that I have a clear conscience and I do the best I know

Good for you!  "the best I know"?  Who or what do you know this from?  Who sets the moral standards?

[columbusdude82]

Who sets the moral standards?

Certainly not Yahweh or his henchmen. See my previous post 

[Butterbean]

--Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.

--I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?

--Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West?

--My heart rejoices... for your children's sake


--You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders.


--Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.

--So many moral dilemmas relevant to us are better dealt with in Shakepseare and Dickens than Joshua and Judges, don't you think?

I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).

 

[columbusdude82]

Apart from Stella's reference to Jephthah, it's like you are nitpicking at semantics about my views on morality, and ignoring my long post above.

EVEN IF I had nothing to base my views of morality on, what on earth makes anyone think I would look to the killer of every first-born child in Egypt for moral dictates???

[Butterbean]

Apart from Stella's reference to Jephthah, it's like you are nitpicking at semantics about my views on morality, and ignoring my long post above.

EVEN IF I had nothing to base my views of morality on, what on earth makes anyone think I would look to the killer of every first-born child in Egypt for moral dictates???

columbusdude, just wondering and of course you do not have to answer anything you're not comfortable with.....when did you develop a feeling of disdain for the God of the bible?  Was it when you were still considered a Catholic or when you delved into Protestant Fundamentalism or later?

[columbusdude82]

In my teens, Catholicism bored me, as in it just appeared really, embarrassingly silly. All the "hocus pocus" of the transsubstantiation, "holy water," etc etc... I had tried hard for many years to convince myself that the wafer was really the body of Christ, and the wine was really the blood... but how much it takes to affirm the obviously false! It was still wafer and wine. Also, all the sexual rules never made the slightest sense: I never could understand why it was so wrong for me to do what 14-year-old boys usually do, or why I should feel bad for noticing a girl's boobies

My disdain for the "suspension of reason" began with September 11, 2001, and then the palestinian campaign of "martyrdom" in Israeli cities, and then Iraq. I found myself having to explain to Muslims (people of faith) why I thought suicide bombing against civilians was wrong. Surely, they argued, if it is sanctioned by one's faith, it must be respected.

Then I began to see the "suspension of reason" appear (though not as violently) in America, in politics and in the curriculum.

I found out that my disdain for Islam was really a disdain for the "suspension of reason."

As for the God of the Bible, I feel no more disdain for him than I do for his fellow mythological figures Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, etc... Mythology is fascinating, but for us to be forcing the mythologies of the past as "holy" texts to be "respected" is madness, and leads to such stupidies and absurdities as suicide bombing, creationism, and intelligent design...

[Butterbean]

Thanks for answering columbusdude.  I agree w/you about Catholicism.  Many of the traditional "beliefs" including confessing to a priest, Mary "worship," dead-people "worship" (praying to "saints"), forbidding marriage and eating of meat etc. actually go against what the bible teaches.  As for transsubstantiation...th at is really bizzare also.  I mean, do they teach that the priest that "blesses" the elements has some magical power to turn them into the flesh and blood?  I'll never accept that.

I'm sure you probably realize much of Catholic tradition has nothing to do w/the bible.

But you said you were involved in Protestant Fundamentalism for a time.  How long was that?  Did you read the bible much w/that mindset?  Did the God of the bible make sense to you then?

Do you believe you've ever accepted Christ as Savior?  This is "by Grace through faith and not of works, so that no man can boast." EPH 2:8,9.  It means you believe you are a sinner and need forgiveness....that you accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected.....you accept the free give of forgiveness this provides.  Do you feel that ever happened to you?

[OzmO]

What about the children?  I don't know.  I do not have all the answers.  Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge?  That actually happened, in more than one occasion.  And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do.  I don't like it, but that's life.  But these stories serve as lessons to us so that we are aware that our choice may affect generations to come, in a positive or negative way.  It's a reality and God warns us about this.

This is classic.  Desensitizing and justifying the slaughter of children to preserve the claim that the bible is the 100% word of God.

That's absurd. 



At some point maybe you'll see just how ridiculous that is.


Show would we have been justified in killing every last child of Nazis in ww2?  This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories.

[loco]

This is classic.  Desensitizing and justifying the slaughter of children to preserve the claim that the bible is the 100% word of God.

That's absurd.   

At some point maybe you'll see just how ridiculous that is.

Sure, people get up and accuse and condemn God for this.  Yet the same people kill unborn babies or just stand by and do nothing about it.  Sure, a woman has a right to choose.   But what about the defenseless, unborn baby?  Does he/she not have a right to choose to live?  Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? 

I bet you if the Bible said that pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality are not sins, then the same people would completely ignore the destruction of wicked nations in the Bible and have no problems with the Bible at all.   

Show would we have been justified in killing every last child of Nazis in ww2?  This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories.

That doesn't make any sense, OzmO.  WW2 wasn't that long ago and Nazis were exterminating Jews, men, women and children.  Why?  Because they were wicked?  No, only because they were Jew.

And "This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories."

[OzmO]

Sure, people get up and accuse and condemn God for this.  Yet the same people kill unborn babies or just stand by and do nothing about it.  Sure, a woman has a right to choose.   But what about the defenseless, unborn baby?  Does he/she not have a right to choose to live?  Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? 

I bet you if the Bible said that pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality are not sins, then the same people would completely ignore the destruction of wicked nations in the Bible and have no problems with the Bible at all.   

HAHAHAHA.    Can't you address the issue with out trying to derail it in another direction?  Is the "alleged" Word of God so weak?

In the BIBLE.................GO D endorsed the killing and slaughter of Children and people like you sit there and try to justify it.   

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN.   ( but there was justification for killing 3000 men because they might have killed children?  )

Stay on point loco,  or is the "word of God" not up to the task?

That doesn't make any sense, OzmO.  WW2 wasn't that long ago and Nazis were exterminating Jews, men, women and children.  Why?  Because they were wicked?  No, only because they were Jew.

Is this another example where you pretend to misunderstand the point in hopes of changing it?

1.  The Nazis were evil. 

2.  You said: 

Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge?  That actually happened, in more than one occasion.  And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do.  I don't like it, but that's life.

3.  Wasn't that your justification for killing the children if the Medinites?

4.  So would be as justified in Killing Nazis children beck then?

If we followed the moral example set by "god" in the OT then we would have been justified in killing the children of Nazis wouldn't we?

That's why  civilization has surpassed the book of stories.

[loco]

HAHAHAHA.    Can't you address the issue with out trying to derail it in another direction?  Is the "alleged" Word of God so weak?

Looks like I hit a nerve.   

In the BIBLE.................GO D endorsed the killing and slaughter of Children and people like you sit there and try to justify it.

In the BIBLE, GOD has NEVER "endorsed" the murder of anybody, nor the killing or slaughter of children.  God did order the destruction of certain, specific wicked nations, which included their children, and their possesions.  This doesn't mean that God endorses the killing of children.  That's ridiculous.

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN.   ( but there was justification for killing 3000 men because they might have killed children?  )

Stay on point loco,  or is the "word of God" not up to the task?

What?    
Funny.  First you bring up the "killing of 3000 men"....AGAIN...then you tell me to stay on point? 

You keep bringing up the "killing of 3000 men", yet on the thread where we were specifically discussing this very point, you abandoned the discussion and gave up...only to keep throwing it here and there as you please.  We can get back to that thread and continue kicking this dead horse whenever you say.

Is this another example where you pretend to misunderstand the point in hopes of changing it?

1.  The Nazis were evil. 

2.  You said: 
3.  Wasn't that your justification for killing the children if the Medinites?

4.  So would be as justified in Killing Nazis children beck then?

If we followed the moral example set by "god" in the OT then we would have been justified in killing the children of Nazis wouldn't we?

First, I didn't misunderstand anything.  I see what you are saying, but it is false.  God gave Israel specific orders to destroy specific, wicked nations.  Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis?  So NO, this does not justify the killing of children of Nazis.  If you want to kill the children of Nazis or the children of anyone, you would be acting on your own and not on orders from God.  Your logic is "absurd".

That's why  civilization has surpassed the book of stories.

Now, this is what I was talking about.  This doesn't make sense.  Civilisation has not surpassed anything when you just mentioned Nazis killing Jews only because they are Jew.  Were the Germans not civilized?  What about all the people around the world who knew about the Holocaust and stood by and did nothing about it?  Were those people not civilized?

[Butterbean]

OzmO, I know you believe in God.  Is the God in which you believe omniscient?

[OzmO]

In the BIBLE, GOD has NEVER "endorsed" the murder of anybody, nor the killing or slaughter of children.  God did order the destruction of certain, specific wicked nations, which included their children, and their possesions.  This doesn't mean that God endorses the killing of children.  That's ridiculous.

So ordering the killing of people is not endorsing it?  Com on loco.

God ordered the killing of Children.  PERIOD.  Spin it as much as you want but the God in the OT is one evil bastard.

What?   Grin
Funny.  First you bring up the "killing of 3000 men"....AGAIN...then you tell me to stay on point?

You keep bringing up the "killing of 3000 men", yet on the thread where we were specifically discussing this very point, you abandoned the discussion and gave up...only to keep throwing it here and there as you please.  We can get back to that thread and continue kicking this dead horse whenever you say.

I know,  i couldn't help it.  because it such hypocrisy.  Becuase it relates to another debate we had when you claim the 3000 men were killed to prevent the sacrificial killing of children but it's ok to kill children if they belong to a "evil" nation.      More monster double standards brought to you by the allege WOG.

First, I didn't misunderstand anything.  I see what you are saying, but it is false.  God gave Israel specific orders to destroy specific, wicked nations.  Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis?  So NO, this does not justify the killing of children of Nazis.  If you want to kill the children of Nazis or the children of anyone, you would be acting on your own and not on orders from God.  Your logic is "absurd".

What I'm saying it not false loco.   You are playing the "stupid" game by trying to act like you don;t understand the concept of drawing comparisons and you top it off by the stupid question:

Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis?

My Logic is absurd?   You support a book that justifies the killing of children and you call me absurd?   HAHAHAHAHA