Author Topic: Ask a REAL Karate Blackbelt (Read 17474 times)

americanbulldog · « **Reply #50 on:** September 15, 2007, 07:48:14 PM »

Quote from: Archer77 on September 15, 2007, 03:43:42 PM

JJ is definately superior on the ground but you cant learn from jj the type of bodyweight manipulation ,yours or your opponents, and pure power that comes from wrestling. Wrestling makes it easier to get to the ground and JJ teaches what to do with them and what to prevent them from doing to you.

Also, as far as the effectiveness of karate is concerned I find it quite telling that karate( including forms and breaking) is not the main form of hand to hand combat taught by the military.

Wait, I thought the combatives program taught to our military was Karate? Oh, it's not? It is more grappling/jiujitsu based you say?

Archer77 · « **Reply #51 on:** September 15, 2007, 08:01:03 PM »

Quote from: americanbulldog on September 15, 2007, 07:48:14 PM

Wait, I thought the combatives program taught to our military was Karate? Oh, it's not? It is more grappling/jiujitsu based you say?

Sort of, they implement BASIC kicks but a lot of it is joint locks/manipulation. Close combat techniques(foot stomp,ear strikes, neck strikes.) and even advance knife techniques and knife defense tactics. More and more grappling and jiu jistu are being implemented and I see that only continuing. I think you can find some of the older Military Hand to Hand Combat manuals on the net. I have a hard copy.

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #52 on:** September 15, 2007, 09:18:59 PM »

*Catch wrestlers, Sambo wrestlers, and Judo wrestlers all use submissions.
*Ground and pound can also force an opponent to submit.
*GnP is how both UFC and PRIDE heavyweight champs often get the win.

Furthermore, just because I learn how to do an armbar doesn't make me a BJJ fighter.
I learned about kimuras and armbars sitting on my ass watching UFC fights. Does that make me a BJJ fighter?

The following are styles of wrestling:Sambo, Judo, Greco-Roman, and Freestyle.

Quote

According to the International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA), Greco-Roman wrestling is one of the four main forms of amateur competitive wrestling practiced internationally today, the other three being Freestyle wrestling, judo, and sambo.

So with that in mind, let's look at the facts:

*PRIDE Heayweight Champion: Fedor Emelianenko, style:Sambo

*UFC Heavyweight Champion: Randy Couture, style:Greco-Roman

*PRIDE Lightheavyweight Champion: Dan Henderson, style: Greco-Roman (before belt unification)

*UFC Lightheavyweight Champion: Quentin Jackson, style: Freestyle Wrestling, boxing

So again, I'm vindicated by the facts. The champions are all wrestlers, not BJJ guys.
All champions above super-smallweight are wrestlers!
You hardly see any Jiu-Jitsu in MMA anymore, as Jiu-Jitsu primarily works on clothes. The stuff you are seeing is Judo at best.
Gracie "Jiu-Jitsu" is somewhat of a misnomer, as the styles origins lie in the JUDO tought by a Japanese to Helio.
Gracie Judo is a more accurate term.

And if you still think strength isn't the most important factor, there's this style called Aikido that might serve you.
It worked for Segal!

*ChuteBoxe* · « **Reply #53 on:** September 15, 2007, 09:41:10 PM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 15, 2007, 09:18:59 PM

man on a So with that in mind, let's look at the facts:

*PRIDE Heayweight Champion: Mirko Cro Cop, style:Sambo

*UFC Heavyweight Champion: Randy Couture, style:Greco-Roman

*PRIDE Lightheavyweight Champion: Dan Henderson, style: Greco-Roman (before belt unification)

*UFC Lightheavyweight Champion: Quentin Jackson, style: Freestyle Wrestling, boxing

That is not a fact.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #54 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:50:03 AM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 15, 2007, 09:18:59 PM

*Catch wrestlers, Sambo wrestlers, and Judo wrestlers all use submissions.
*Ground and pound can also force an opponent to submit.
*GnP is how both UFC and PRIDE heavyweight champs often get the win.

Furthermore, just because I learn how to do an armbar doesn't make me a BJJ fighter.
I learned about kimuras and armbars sitting on my ass watching UFC fights. Does that make me a BJJ fighter?

The following are styles of wrestling:Sambo, Judo, Greco-Roman, and Freestyle.

So with that in mind, let's look at the facts:

*PRIDE Heayweight Champion: Fedor Emelianenko, style:Sambo

*UFC Heavyweight Champion: Randy Couture, style:Greco-Roman

*PRIDE Lightheavyweight Champion: Dan Henderson, style: Greco-Roman (before belt unification)

*UFC Lightheavyweight Champion: Quentin Jackson, style: Freestyle Wrestling, boxing

So again, I'm vindicated by the facts. The champions are all wrestlers, not BJJ guys.
All champions above super-smallweight are wrestlers!
You hardly see any Jiu-Jitsu in MMA anymore, as Jiu-Jitsu primarily works on clothes. The stuff you are seeing is Judo at best.
Gracie "Jiu-Jitsu" is somewhat of a misnomer, as the styles origins lie in the JUDO tought by a Japanese to Helio.
Gracie Judo is a more accurate term.

And if you still think strength isn't the most important factor, there's this style called Aikido that might serve you.
It worked for Segal!

Randy trains BJJ. As does Hendo. Page started his career with Fabiano Iha, a BJJ black belt. Sambo and BJJ came from Judo. The newaza techniques are very similar, BJJ simply has the better positional skills, and well as transitions and set ups. I trained karate before, and don't consider myself a karate guy simply because when I fight, I DON"T USE KARATE.
Doesn't GSP use BJJ, Matt Serra is a black belt, Hughes even uses BJJ. Sherk used BJJ to defeat Franca. Rich Franklin, former middleweight champ uses BJJ and trains at a BJJ academy. Chuck is a purple with John Lewis, Tito trains with Ricco a black, and Dean Lister another black. Wandy, Shogun are both black belts. More people use BJJ in fighting than people who use Karate. So why would anyone want to ask you a question on an MMA board?

You talk about using an armbar and a kimura, subs that are universal to most grappling arts, but the use of the guard is something popularized by Relio. If you pull off an armbar or triangle from the guard, aren't you using BJJ? Again, name me 1 fighter other than Lyoto Machida who uses Karate extensively in his MMA fighting game? Still can't....

My nephew, a blue belt went to Pendleton and was submitting, sweeping, embarassing the Marine Combatives instructor. who told all the recruits that what he was taught was more efficient than BJJ. Yeah, right.

Richard2004 · « **Reply #55 on:** September 16, 2007, 09:19:40 AM »

I can't believe the hilarious title of this thread!??

I just "dropped by" this forum today to find out what happened in the Lawler/Rua EliteXC matchup last night, which I missed (damn it...got any links to vids. of the action?!)!

Gee now, let's see...I've been practicing the martial-arts since approx. 1956...boxing, freestyle intercollegiate wrestling, Judo. JJJ/GJJ, Karate', Tae Kwon Do, Kung-Fu, JKD, Pankration, Muay Thai, Pananjakman, Krav Maga, military CCC/RAT, on a REGULAR basis for count em' (fucckin' count em! ) 51+ years!!!

"REAL Karate (duhhh...you forget the original correct accent mark in the word Karate') Black Belt"...51+ years of "MMA" training, why, why, that's longer than you've been alive!! Geez, does that make me some sort of "martial-arts expert"!??

Besides competing in a battery of martial-arts tournaments/matches from the 50's-70's (uhhh...that's approx. 20 looong yrs.), I've got a drawer full of dusty "black belt certificates". Also, I've also instructed the hard/soft martial-arts for most of that time.

Oh, and one more thing, I was able to use my MMA/CCC skills for REAL in a place called "Vietnam", where I actually killed people utilizing these skills!

Big fucckin' deal!!

All this out-the-ass hard/soft MMA "experience" has taught me two things: HUMILITY and to NEVER STOP MY MMA TRAINING!!!

"Real Karate' Black Belt", what you need to do is write down in big red letters on a piece of paper what Bruce Lee said, "ALL A 'BLACK BELT' IS GOOD FOR IS HOLDING UP YOUR PANTS!". PERIOD!

Read Bruce Lee's comment on the "worth" of a black belt over 1000 times and then have someone rub your arrogant face/nose in it!

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #56 on:** September 16, 2007, 11:55:03 AM »

First of all, Bruce Lee never fought one karate blackbelt in competition or on the street.
A guy like Joe Lewis (not the boxer, the karate expert) would have destroyed him.
Bruce Lee by all accounts had trouble beating some Gong Fu guy in a streetfight,
and some say Lee didn't even win.

And then what? The Bruce Lee myth would have been destroyed.
I don't believe in myths or hype; I believe in what has been proven to work.

The only record of Bruce Lee's fights are some wins people claimed he scored over guys that hopped his backyard fence.
Guys like Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis, would easily beat Bruce Lee.
They actually fought people and experienced fractured jaws and broken bones.
Lee was an actor first, a fighter second.
His applied fighting ability is entirely suspect.

EVERY MMA fighter cross-trains to some degree, but the core of Randy's style is Greco-Roman wrestling.
The core of Georges Saint Pierres style is Karate.
The core of Liddel's training is Kempo Karate
The core of Fedor's training is Sambo.

Everything else is supplemental.
They learn some Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu to complement their style,
but no to the degree of proficiency as their core style.

For example, Randy would do very well in a Greco-Roman tournament;
in a Jiu-Jitsu tournament he would be put in some hold using the Gi that he's never heard of.
His Jiu-Jitsu skills are limited. They compliment his Greco-Roman and that's it.

*The more you know the better off you are.
*The stronger you are the better off you are.

And now you know!

If you think Bruce Lee was fast, watch 2:50 of this Joe Lewis point match and don't blink. Joe was a lot heavier than Lee too:

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americanbulldog · « **Reply #57 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:10:29 PM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 16, 2007, 11:55:03 AM

First of all, Bruce Lee never fought one karate blackbelt in competition or on the street.
A guy like Joe Lewis (not the boxer, the karate expert) would have destroyed him.
Bruce Lee by all accounts had trouble beating some Gong Fu guy in a streetfight,
and some say Lee didn't even win.

And then what? The Bruce Lee myth would have been destroyed.
I don't believe in myths or hype; I believe in what has been proven to work.

The only record of Bruce Lee's fights are some wins people claimed he scored over guys that hopped his backyard fence.
Guys like Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis, would easily beat Bruce Lee.
They actually fought people and experienced fractured jaws and broken bones.
Lee was an actor first, a fighter second.
His applied fighting ability is entirely suspect.

EVERY MMA fighter cross-trains to some degree, but the core of Randy's style is Greco-Roman wrestling.
The core of Georges Saint Pierres style is Karate.
The core of Liddel's training is Kempo Karate WRONG
The core of Fedor's training is Sambo. (An offshoot of Judo, as is BJJ)

Everything else is supplemental.
They learn some Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu to complement their style,
but no to the degree of proficiency as their core style.
(Randy tied Jacare in a submission grappling tournament, which is pretty much made up of BJJ players) He even took Jacare's back, a non greco move.

For example, Randy would do very well in a Greco-Roman tournament;
in a Jiu-Jitsu tournament he would be put in some hold using the Gi that he's never heard of.
His Jiu-Jitsu skills are limited. They compliment his Greco-Roman and that's it. WRONG again, see above

*The more you know the better off you are.
*The stronger you are the better off you are.

And now you know!

If you think Bruce Lee was fast, watch 2:50 of this Joe Lewis point match and don't blink. Joe was a lot heavier than Lee too:

&mode=related&search=

&mode=related&search=

How much Kajukenbo does Chuck use in his fights? (You prolly don't know what is in kajukenbo, but I do) Other than a spinning reverse kick, how much karate is in GSP's arsenal? I see the Greco in Randy's game.

Who other than Lyoto Machida is a Karate biased fighter in MMA? Still haven't answered the question.

I have actually trained with Joe Lewis. He was a student of Bruce Lee's. I trained with him TWICE at an IMB instructor's seminars. Have you? How much shotokan is in MMA? Why would we want to ask someone who is a blackbelt in an art that ISN'T used in MMA a question on an MMA board?

Please, I await you answers, stop skirting the question.

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #58 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:39:39 PM »

I already answered you. You're going round in circles after I already proved you wrong with quotes from the fighters themselves....

The lineage of Kyokushin is rooted in shotokan.
Oyama was Funakoshi's student.

Karate is used in MMA by the champions, and in K-1 by the champions. If you want to continue denying the facts, why do you train with karate guys? Should be a waste of time from your perspective.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #59 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:50:34 PM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 16, 2007, 07:39:39 PM

I already answered you. You're going round in circles after I already proved you wrong with quotes from the fighters themselves....

The lineage of Kyokushin is rooted in shotokan.
Oyama was Funakoshi's student.

Karate is used in MMA by the champions, and in K-1 by the champions. If you want to continue denying the facts, why do you train with karate guys? Should be a waste of time from your perspective.

It is, and that is why I don't anymore. I took kajukenbo because my parente made me do it. I told my Dad I wanted to stop when one of my buddies who was a black belt got his butt handed to him by a kid named Kimo Leopoldo. (Yeah, that Kimo) My friend Kyle was a 12 year old black belt, that should have given me a clue.

Again, instead of going in circles, why not answer the SPECIFIC QUESTION. Who other than Lyoto Machida uses karate extensively in MMA?

Why does Randy hire Shawn Thompkins to be the striking coach at Xtreme Couture when Karate is sooooo much better. Maybe YOU should apply for a job there.

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #60 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:58:30 PM »

I should.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #61 on:** September 16, 2007, 08:29:58 PM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 16, 2007, 07:58:30 PM

I should.

I give up. It seems logic isn't one of your strong points. I hope your ridgehand is.

Top MMA Fight Schools:

Team Quest
Xtreme Couture
Chute Boxe
MFS
ATT
Blackhouse
BTT

What they all have in common, no striking coach who teaches Karate.

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #62 on:** September 16, 2007, 08:39:24 PM »

I'm just going to retire from this forum and set up a bot quoting myself:

Quote

The advantage Muay-Thai has over Karate is they teach the most effective techniques used in all standup and focus on them entirely.
Thus, it is possible to be effective with Muay-Thai early. However Karate teaches all the strikes used in Muay-Thai, and more, thus it is a more comprehensive system. It does take longer to master. Some kicks and strikes that aren't effective in sport fighting may be useful in certain real-world situations

americanbulldog · « **Reply #63 on:** September 16, 2007, 11:58:53 PM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 16, 2007, 08:39:24 PM

I'm just going to retire from this forum and set up a bot quoting myself:

To your credit, no matter how delusional and misguided you believe, at least you believe.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #64 on:** September 17, 2007, 01:48:59 PM »

Quote from: Archer77 on September 15, 2007, 08:01:03 PM

Sort of, they implement BASIC kicks but a lot of it is joint locks/manipulation. Close combat techniques(foot stomp,ear strikes, neck strikes.) and even advance knife techniques and knife defense tactics. More and more grappling and jiu jistu are being implemented and I see that only continuing. I think you can find some of the older Military Hand to Hand Combat manuals on the net. I have a hard copy.

Modern combatives program has more of it's roots in BJJ than older manuals would suggest. Rorion, Royce, were certifying instructors in modern combatives.

*ChuteBoxe* · « **Reply #65 on:** September 17, 2007, 02:48:01 PM »

Winner: AmericanBulldog (via one sided thrashing)

end of thread

americanbulldog · « **Reply #66 on:** September 17, 2007, 04:06:19 PM »

Quote from: *ChuteBoxe* on September 17, 2007, 02:48:01 PM

Winner: AmericanBulldog (via one sided thrashing)

end of thread

Instructor at Team Quest, Temecula:

Full Name: Vinicius Magalhaes
Nick Name:Pezao
Lineage: Vinicius Aieta/Royler Gracie
Academy: Gracie Tijuca
Belt Rank: Black Belt
Country: United States
Titles and Awards:
ACCOMPLISHMENTS:

GRACIE HUMAITA'S BLACK BELT (ROYLER GRACIE'S SCHOOL)

3X BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP GOLD MEDALIST

BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SILVER MEDALIST

2X BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP BRONZE MEDALIST

2X BJJ BRAZILIAN NATIONAL GOLD MEDALIST

PANAMERICAN GOLD MEDALIST

2X BJJ AMERICAN NATIONAL GOLD MEDALIST

US OPEN GOLD MEDALIST

6X RIO DE JANEIRO STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GOLD MEDALIST

3X RIO DE JANEIRO STATE RANKING CHAMPION

GRAPPLERS QUEST PRO NO GI CHAMPION

PROFESSIONAL SUBMISSION LEAGUE (LA SUB X) CHAMPION

So Hendo and crew do train BJJ, but NOT KARATE.

Archer77 · « **Reply #67 on:** September 17, 2007, 05:11:57 PM »

Quote from: americanbulldog on September 17, 2007, 01:48:59 PM

Modern combatives program has more of it's roots in BJJ than older manuals would suggest. Rorion, Royce, were certifying instructors in modern combatives.

I agree. I think they have seen how effective it is.

*ChuteBoxe* · « **Reply #68 on:** September 17, 2007, 05:33:35 PM »

Quote from: americanbulldog on September 17, 2007, 04:06:19 PM

Instructor at Team Quest, Temecula:

Full Name: Vinicius Magalhaes
Nick Name:Pezao
Lineage: Vinicius Aieta/Royler Gracie
Academy: Gracie Tijuca
Belt Rank: Black Belt
Country: United States
Titles and Awards:
ACCOMPLISHMENTS:

GRACIE HUMAITA'S BLACK BELT (ROYLER GRACIE'S SCHOOL)

3X BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP GOLD MEDALIST

BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SILVER MEDALIST

2X BJJ WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP BRONZE MEDALIST

2X BJJ BRAZILIAN NATIONAL GOLD MEDALIST

PANAMERICAN GOLD MEDALIST

2X BJJ AMERICAN NATIONAL GOLD MEDALIST

US OPEN GOLD MEDALIST

6X RIO DE JANEIRO STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GOLD MEDALIST

3X RIO DE JANEIRO STATE RANKING CHAMPION

GRAPPLERS QUEST PRO NO GI CHAMPION

PROFESSIONAL SUBMISSION LEAGUE (LA SUB X) CHAMPION

So Hendo and crew do train BJJ, but NOT KARATE.

You know im in agreeance with you in just about everything you've said in this thread right? Although, Vinicius is more commonly known as "draculino", unless he changed his nickname.

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #69 on:** September 17, 2007, 09:39:59 PM »

Two haters engaging in mutual masturbation.
Too bad facts and quotes from fighters don't agree.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #70 on:** September 18, 2007, 12:14:43 AM »

Quote from: realkarateblackbelt on September 17, 2007, 09:39:59 PM

Two haters engaging in mutual masturbation.
Too bad facts and quotes from fighters don't agree.

You should be a politician. Just so you understand. WHO OTHER THAN LYOTO MACHIDA USES KARATE EXTENSIVELY IN HIS MMA GAME?

Let see if you have reading comprehension skills.

And BTW "RKBB" Joe Lewis attended the IMB seminar workshops to show everyone kickboxing, not karate. No question was asked about karate, no one was interested in karate. If anything, people asked more questions about how Bruce Lee changed his kickboxing game. How much does the Sabaki challenge sell in PPVs? Oh, that is another quesiton that prolly will go unanswered.

ATHEIST · « **Reply #71 on:** September 18, 2007, 01:34:13 PM »

RealKarateBlackbelt...ca n you just answer the question?? the more you igore it the more you discredit your claims.

americanbulldog · « **Reply #72 on:** September 18, 2007, 02:24:00 PM »

Quote from: ATHEIST on September 18, 2007, 01:34:13 PM

RealKarateBlackbelt...ca n you just answer the question?? the more you ignore it the more you discredit your claims.

Didn't know he had any credibility.

SinCitysmallGUY · « **Reply #73 on:** September 18, 2007, 02:39:58 PM »

Quote from: americanbulldog on September 18, 2007, 02:24:00 PM

Didn't know he had any credibility.

Nor did I...

realkarateblackbelt · « **Reply #74 on:** September 18, 2007, 04:16:13 PM »

Kickboxing is karate as sport. I already went through this.
I already explained to you who uses karate in mma, complete with facts and quotes from the fighters that use it.
YOU need to learn how to read. Go wallow in your ignorance, as a person in the know I don't care.