Author Topic: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked  (Read 2275 times)

24KT

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Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« on: September 22, 2007, 08:56:54 PM »
Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

Sat Sep 22, 7:55 PM ET
 
BAGHDAD - Iraqi investigators have a videotape that shows Blackwater USA guards opened fire against civilians without provocation in a shooting last week that left 11 people dead, a senior Iraqi official said Saturday. He said the case was referred to the Iraqi judiciary.

Iraq's president, meanwhile, demanded that the Americans release an Iranian arrested this week on suspicion of smuggling weapons to Shiite militias. The demand adds new strains to U.S.-Iraqi relations only days before a meeting between President Bush and Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.

Interior Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf said Iraqi authorities had completed an investigation into the Sept. 16 shooting in Nisoor Square in western Baghdad and concluded that Blackwater guards were responsible for the deaths.

He told The Associated Press that the conclusion was based on witness statements as well as videotape shot by cameras at the nearby headquarters of the national police command. He said eight people were killed at the scene and three of the 15 wounded died in hospitals.

Blackwater, which provides most of the security for U.S. diplomats and civilian officials in Iraq, has insisted that its guards came under fire from armed insurgents and shot back only to defend themselves.

Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said Saturday that she knew nothing about the videotape and was contractually prohibited from discussing details of the shooting.

Khalaf also said the ministry was looking into six other fatal shootings involving the Moyock, N.C.-based company in which 10 Iraqis were killed and 15 wounded. Among the shootings was one Feb. 7 outside Iraqi state television in Baghdad that killed three building guards.

"These six cases will support the case against Blackwater, because they show that it has a criminal record," Khalaf said.

Khalaf said the report was "sent to the judiciary" although he would not specify whether that amounted to filing of criminal charges. Under Iraqi law, an investigating judge reviews criminal complaints and decides whether there is enough evidence for a trial.

Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh denied that authorities had decided to file charges against the Blackwater guards and said Saturday that no decision had been taken whether to seek punishment.

"The necessary measures will be taken that will preserve the honor of the Iraqi people," he said in New York, where al-Maliki arrived Friday for the U.N. General Assembly session. "We have ongoing high-level meetings with the U.S. side about this issue."

Al-Maliki is expected to raise the issue with Bush during a meeting Monday in New York.

It is doubtful that foreign security contractors could be prosecuted under Iraqi law. A directive issued by U.S. occupation authorities in 2004 granted contractors, U.S. troops and many other foreign officials immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law.

Security contractors are also not subject to U.S. military law under which U.S. troopers face prosecution for killing or abusing Iraqis.


Iraqi officials have said in the wake of the Nisoor Square shooting that they will press for amendments to the 2004 directive.

A senior aide to al-Maliki said Friday that three of the Blackwater guards were Iraqis and could be subject to prosecution. The aide spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

Shortly after the Sept. 16 shooting, U.S. officials said they "understood" that there was videotape, but refused to give more details. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not supposed to release information to the media.

Following the Nisoor Square shooting, the Interior Ministry banned Blackwater from operating in Iraq but rolled back after the U.S. agreed to a joint investigation. The company resumed guarding a reduced number of U.S. convoys on Friday.

The al-Maliki aide said Friday that the Iraqis were pushing for an apology, compensation for victims or their families and for the guards involved in the shooting to be held "accountable."

Hadi al-Amri, a prominent Shiite lawmaker and al-Maliki ally, also said an admission of wrongdoing, an apology and compensation offered a way out of the dilemma.

"They are always frightened and that's why they shoot at civilians," al-Amri said. "If Blackwater gets to stay in Iraq, it will have to give guarantees about its conduct."

Allegations against Blackwater have clouded relations between Iraq and the Americans at a time when the Bush administration is seeking to contain calls in Congress for sharp reductions in the 160,000-strong U.S. military force.

Adding to those strains, President Jalal Talabani demanded the immediate release of an Iranian official detained Thursday by U.S. forces in the Kurdish city of Sulaimaniyah.

The U.S. military said the unidentified Iranian was a member of the Quds force — an elite unit of Iran's Revolutionary Guards accused of arming and training Shiite militias in Iraq.

A statement issued Saturday by Talabani's office said the arrest was carried out without the prior knowledge or the cooperation of the Kurdish regional government.

"This amounts to an insult and a violation of its rights and authority," said the statement, quoting a letter Talabani sent to Gen. David Petraeus and U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker. Talabani, a Kurd, is one of Washington's most reliable partners in Iraq.

Talabani said Iran had threatened to close the border with the Kurdish region if the official were not freed — a serious blow to the economy in the president's political stronghold.

"I want to express to you our dismay over the arrest by American forces of this official civilian Iranian guest," Talabani wrote to Petraeus and Crocker.

Five Iranians said to be linked to the Quds force were arrested in the Kurdish city of Irbil and remain in U.S. custody.

Also Saturday, the U.S. military announced the death of two more American soldiers — one of an unspecified non-combat related injury and another in a vehicle accident in Diyala province.

____

Associated Press reporters Bushra Juhi and Qassim Abdul-Zahra in Baghdad and Tom Foreman Jr. in Raleigh, N.C. contributed to this report.
w

Al-Gebra

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2007, 09:01:52 PM »

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were THERE.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have you found? The same old fears.
Wish you were THERE.

drkaje

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2007, 09:05:59 PM »
Judi,

You really should learn that not thinking the worst of people has it's own benefit.

Those civilians could have had menacing looks or maybe the guards were just bored. Either way it... it's a good start, those victims were Arabs and probably hated Israel. :)

24KT

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2007, 09:14:26 PM »
Judi,

You really should learn that not thinking the worst of people has it's own benefit.

Those civilians could have had menacing looks or maybe the guards were just bored. Either way it... it's a good start, those victims were Arabs and probably hated Israel. :)

Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.

Eyewitness & videotape testimonial shows that innocent civilians were gunned down without provocation,
and the government cannot do anything about it. People die, and the government's hands are tied.
it is this kind of BS that causes animositiy, and creates insurgents who then target Americans.  :'(
How many more young Americans have to die because of irresponsbile actions by those who are above the law?
How many more of these types of situations can occur before local Iraqi's allies turn hostile towards all Americans?
w

Al-Gebra

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2007, 09:29:15 PM »
Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.

Eyewitness & videotape testimonial shows that innocent civilians were gunned down without provocation,
and the government cannot do anything about it. People die, and the government's hands are tied.
it is this kind of BS that causes animositiy, and creates insurgents who then target Americans.  :'(
How many more young Americans have to die because of irresponsbile actions by those who are above the law?
How many more of these types of situations can occur before local Iraqi's allies turn hostile towards all Americans?

 :'(

Stark

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2007, 11:48:15 PM »
fucking animals  >:(

I say nuke the states

drkaje

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2007, 04:31:42 AM »
Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.

Eyewitness & videotape testimonial shows that innocent civilians were gunned down without provocation,
and the government cannot do anything about it. People die, and the government's hands are tied.
it is this kind of BS that causes animositiy, and creates insurgents who then target Americans.  :'(
How many more young Americans have to die because of irresponsbile actions by those who are above the law?
How many more of these types of situations can occur before local Iraqi's allies turn hostile towards all Americans?

Judi,

No one (who matters) cares.

You're not American so there's no way for you to understand this but I will try: Americans have a very complicated formula upon which we judge suffering. First priority is Jews. The rest of the formula goes by geographic location and the extent to which the majority identifies with them. There is a provision for aid that will prevent immigration from Asian countries after tsunamis and so on but that's pretty much it. :)

Those people aren't Jewish or white so their deaths don't matter to the general public. As far as international relations go... there's only one nation in the area the US has to care about.

WOOO

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2007, 04:38:16 AM »
who gives a shit??

are you saying suicide bombers are provoked?

if i was in iraq surrounded by whack jobs you can be sure that i would shoot first, shoot first again and shoot first some more

drkaje

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2007, 06:56:05 AM »
who gives a shit??

are you saying suicide bombers are provoked?

if i was in iraq surrounded by whack jobs you can be sure that i would shoot first, shoot first again and shoot first some more

Those guys get paid an assload of money too. It's a win, win situation!

Remember.... Iraq was stable before the invasion.

Stark

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2007, 07:03:27 AM »
Those guys get paid an assload of money too. It's a win, win situation!

Remember.... Iraq was stable before the invasion.

stable is a very flexible term.

drkaje

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2007, 07:27:54 AM »
stable is a very flexible term.

Contained, not our problem, no suicide bombings, no active US casualties, etc...

Last year we admitted to killing at least 655K of them while bringing peace. Saddam was an ass but he probably wouldn't have killed that many in the same time period. But as far as the American public goes that level of death doesn't mean anything to them or it's a good start. Either way it just doesn't matter.

Stark

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2007, 07:35:02 AM »
Contained, not our problem, no suicide bombings, no active US casualties, etc...

Last year we admitted to killing at least 655K of them while bringing peace. Saddam was an ass but he probably wouldn't have killed that many in the same time period. But as far as the American public goes that level of death doesn't mean anything to them or it's a good start. Either way it just doesn't matter.

But of course they look far to different what honest Americans look like and the country is to far away...somehwere in the middle east,.... that's Africa right?

powerpack

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2007, 11:55:30 AM »
Those guys get paid an assload of money too. It's a win, win situation!

Remember.... Iraq was stable before the invasion.
Saddam knew how to talk a language that every one in his country understood.
He was cruel and brutal and crushed things at the source, as he controlled the media he could do that.
As the Americans like to take a Hollywoods worth of reporters with them, a soldier cant fart up wind with out the world knowing it.

As for witnesses and videos it would be nice to know how credible they are.
It is very easy to stage or manipulate something.
Blackwater are something else ( I have been reading a statement made bye them), I am not saying they are Innocent but I keep in mind that this is total war and the insurgents want them out.
I for one can not see why a bunch of mercs would just open up on civilians for NO REASON AT ALL, as they know this would be damaging ???
Something MUST HAVE TRIGGERED IT!
A third party should investigate.

WOOO

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2007, 02:01:16 PM »
Those guys get paid an assload of money too. It's a win, win situation!



it would take a lot of money to make me go to iraq too

WOOO

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2007, 02:01:51 PM »
stable is a very flexible term.

no kidding

drkaje

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2007, 02:05:15 PM »
no kidding

It wasn't Disneyland, LOL!

Dos Equis

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2007, 03:27:37 PM »
Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.


You. 

 ::)

youandme

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2007, 10:21:22 PM »
Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.

We would expect no less of you  ::)

Little odd this new democracy has fulfilled all the requirements for a proper judicial hearing including videotape, eyewitnesses....must have acquired ripped dvds of CSI Miami or the cable company must be back in business.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2007, 05:16:07 AM »
i wonder how much are they r getting paid as private contractors

and i'm curious cause  i got offered an absurd sum to go run the military network as a privte contractor..and i woulda been in the green zone..

blackwater soldiers are prolly making over 700k/person/yr (out of which the first 90k is tax free)
carpe` vaginum!

militarymuscle69

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2007, 06:42:59 AM »
wish they would go to Canada and shoot your ass
gotta love life

Colossus_500

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2007, 08:45:41 AM »
Who is thinking the worst of anyone? I cast no judgements, simply relaying facts which speak for themselves.
I almost gagged when I saw this statement.     :o ::)

240 is Back

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2007, 09:13:24 AM »
a car bomb went off approx 1/2 mile away from them. they jumped out of their vehicles and fired on everyone there.   Nobody knows who had guns and who didn't but civilians were killed.

Not much you can do.  they are above military law, and above iraqi law. 

since there are 170,000 contracters (and only 160,000 soldiers) - throwing out the contractors effectively ends the war.

Cap

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2007, 09:22:57 AM »
i wonder how much are they r getting paid as private contractors

and i'm curious cause  i got offered an absurd sum to go run the military network as a privte contractor..and i woulda been in the green zone..

blackwater soldiers are prolly making over 700k/person/yr (out of which the first 90k is tax free)
At one point 300 grand for 6 month tours all tax free.  Now I think it is maybe 150 grand max for a year, still tax free but no health insurance.
Squishy face retard

youandme

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 07:56:38 AM »
At one point 300 grand for 6 month tours all tax free.  Now I think it is maybe 150 grand max for a year, still tax free but no health insurance.

yea, that is what my friend last told me, he was at 120k. but at the start he said the pay was just crazy.

headhuntersix

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Re: Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 08:50:54 AM »
600-700 per day tax free...but your running convoys and doing PSD stuff all the time so its not like ur sitting around watchinmg the casgh roll in. Blackwater is not there to maintain or enforce US foreign policy in Iraq. They're there to service a contract. Much like all the armed contractors. There are about 50,000 armed contractors doing security work. Their first and last responsibility is to the folks they work for. I won't second guess what happend, and I'm sure they can justify what they did, but its counter productive to what we're doing.

Actions taken in self-defense are normally justified when necessary and proportional. It may well be that Blackwater satisfied that narrow rule. But these contractors are not simply going about their daily lives. They are careening loudly down the streets of Iraq at top speed, switching lanes into oncoming traffic at will, waving everything and everyone out of their way, pointing heavy machine guns at Iraqi cars heavily laden with women and children, with no regard for anything except to protect themselves and their charges. That is their job. Security contractors invariably argue that they provide only defensive services, and do not undertake offensive operations. In a counterinsurgency battlespace, this is a distinction without a difference. In Iraq, driving down the street in an armed truck is an offensive operation. This is especially true because, as the Washington Post recently reported, the contractors are operating under rules of engagement that specifically acknowledge their right to take the actions necessary to defend themselves. And what does that mean? It means whatever the contractors reasonably think it means...NRO online

The problem is not that military rules don’t apply to the contractors, as the Post article claims, but rather that military strategy doesn’t apply to them.
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