What is wrong with pro bodybuilding trying this...?

[HowieW]

What Bob said is right on the money...to echo, look at the lack of success "natural" organizations have.

However Howie, I do agree that some of the drug use is out of hand and is dangerous for some of the competitors considering the limits they push their drug use to...especially when we're talking about what many do right before a comp.

Even so, although everything you said sounds nice on paper, it's just not plausible. We're talking about "pro-bodybuilding" and people want to see "Pro's" big guys who are beyond what the average guy can obtain himself.

This is not to knock what you said, but what you're asking for seems to be a stage of basically male fitness models. Anyone who leans out enough is going to display some level of muscle, they're going to appear healthy and in shape...anyone can do this. But to be able to do it (lean out) and still display mountains of muscle, this is one of the biggest things that separate pro's from the rest of the gym rats.

Believe it or not I agree with what Bob Chic has said about the reality of what makes a pro bodybuilding show a reasonable success aat present. I think the sport can and should go in a new direction, one NOT directed to the gym rats but , the mainstream gym goer.
Few seem to remember that when George Butler wanted to get financial backing for Pumping Iron, he had Arnold and Zane pose on revolving platforms at the Brooklyn Arts Acadamy. Many had no idea about bodybuilding, but wanted to back it then and there. It came off more like a a physique as living work of art.

I don't want glorified male fitness models either. I know for a fact that a guy that is mostly clean can develop an impressive physique with decent size, if they have the genetic gifts .
The idea that a bodybuilder has to take large amounts of drugs to have bigger than a 16" arm is bullpucky.
In my opinion, an IFBB drug tested pro event , run like the Olympia or ASC would be an incredible success and open the door to a whole new world. Granted some of the hardcore crowd woould leave , but I bet they would be replaced 10 fold by new fans, who never paid attention to the current mass freaks.

The current status quo is fine with me. I just hate seeing the pros I admire taking such crazy risks with their health and freedom or reputations. I can't help but think, that down deep , no sensible pro bodybuilder wants to take such risks with their health by doing the crazy amount of drugs they now are required to use to compete .
Wouldn't it be a lot better for the pros, if they didn't have to send the money and deal with all the drug related hassles they now must endure.

[HowieW]

note- I am a muscle head and have been in and around bodybuilding for 3 decades now.
However, when I think aout how far out of touch my ideals are with the real world of modern bodybuilding, it makes me wonder why do I bother ... yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
I think I would be  better off by snorkeling more and thinking about bodybuilding less hehe

[Arnold jr]

Believe it or not I agree with what Bob Chic has said about the reality of what makes a pro bodybuilding show a reasonable success aat present. I think the sport can and should go in a new direction, one NOT directed to the gym rats but , the mainstream gym goer.
Few seem to remember that when George Butler wanted to get financial backing for Pumping Iron, he had Arnold and Zane pose on revolving platforms at the Brooklyn Arts Acadamy. Many had no idea about bodybuilding, but wanted to back it then and there. It came off more like a a physique as living work of art.

I don't want glorified male fitness models either. I know for a fact that a guy that is mostly clean can develop an impressive physique with decent size, if they have the genetic gifts .
The idea that a bodybuilder has to take large amounts of drugs to have bigger than a 16" arm is bullpucky.
In my opinion, an IFBB drug tested pro event , run like the Olympia or ASC would be an incredible success and open the door to a whole new world. Granted some of the hardcore crowd woould leave , but I bet they would be replaced 10 fold by new fans, who never paid attention to the current mass freaks.

The current status quo is fine with me. I just hate seeing the pros I admire taking such crazy risks with their health and freedom or reputations. I can't help but think, that down deep , no sensible pro bodybuilder wants to take such risks with their health by doing the crazy amount of drugs they now are required to use to compete .
Wouldn't it be a lot better for the pros, if they didn't have to send the money and deal with all the drug related hassles they now must endure.

I understand what you're saying, but to get the caliber BB that competes in todays IFBB to compete in a tested show would be imposable...it would be like asking a top notch football player to forgo his NFL opportunity and join the CFL instead.

I also understand that everything you're saying is really just hypothetical, simply what you'd like to see, but you understand that it's not really a reality.

To reiterate, I do hate the fact that so many BB inevitably take risk with their health for compitions sake, and I say this as someone who themselves is very much Pro-AAS. I'm a big advocate for proper and safe performance drug use.

But when it comes to the "fan base" and the idea of drawing in more fans to the sport, I honestly do not believe that the main issue is the drug element of the sport. I believe that a lot of it comes down to two things, markability and perception.

Take for instance the NFL. It has surpassed pro baseball as the national past time, yet you'd be hard pressed to find one single NFL team that doesn't have the majority of its players using these very same drugs as pro-BB...but the fans simply turn a blind eye. Sure, you hear of athletes all the time who are put under fire for drug use, but they are picked out of the pile simply for a "media friendly" example and are used for an ulterior agenda. These athletes are then crucified all over the media circuit, therefore causing the fan to be left disillusioned to the fact that this athletes team members are more then likely doing the exact same thing...it's the perception the media desires to protray...just ask Sports Illustrated writer Rick Reilly....he's been known to write some of the most biased and blatant lying articles on drug use in all of sports media.

The key for pro-BB is to market BB's in a more positive light, therefore changing the general publics perception of the athletes on stage. For years this has been a problem, and it's still a problem but I do believe many steps have and are being taken to remedy this...but there is still much to be done. But the biggest factor into insuring that this happens to the fullest measure plausible, has got to come from within BB itself...between the athletes and those in charge of pro-BB. Right now, there are too many internal wars being waged, too much needless bickering that only harms the sport as a whole. There are individuals on both sides that fingers can be pointed at, but that's not really the point. Yet the structure does need to evolve in a positive manner if progress is ever to be made in a serious stride.

[HowieW]

Great pts here and what is ironic is that I have lost most of my interest in Pro team sports the last few years. What many guys seem to prefer in sports, I disagree with in terms of my ideals and objectives.

[HowieW]

I understand what you're saying, but to get the caliber BB that competes in todays IFBB to compete in a tested show would be imposable...it would be like asking a top notch football player to forgo his NFL opportunity and join the CFL instead.

I also understand that everything you're saying is really just hypothetical, simply what you'd like to see, but you understand that it's not really a reality.

To reiterate, I do hate the fact that so many BB inevitably take risk with their health for compitions sake, and I say this as someone who themselves is very much Pro-AAS. I'm a big advocate for proper and safe performance drug use.

But when it comes to the "fan base" and the idea of drawing in more fans to the sport, I honestly do not believe that the main issue is the drug element of the sport. I believe that a lot of it comes down to two things, markability and perception.

Take for instance the NFL. It has surpassed pro baseball as the national past time, yet you'd be hard pressed to find one single NFL team that doesn't have the majority of its players using these very same drugs as pro-BB...but the fans simply turn a blind eye. Sure, you hear of athletes all the time who are put under fire for drug use, but they are picked out of the pile simply for a "media friendly" example and are used for an ulterior agenda. These athletes are then crucified all over the media circuit, therefore causing the fan to be left disillusioned to the fact that this athletes team members are more then likely doing the exact same thing...it's the perception the media desires to protray...just ask Sports Illustrated writer Rick Reilly....he's been known to write some of the most biased and blatant lying articles on drug use in all of sports media.

The key for pro-BB is to market BB's in a more positive light, therefore changing the general publics perception of the athletes on stage. For years this has been a problem, and it's still a problem but I do believe many steps have and are being taken to remedy this...but there is still much to be done. But the biggest factor into insuring that this happens to the fullest measure plausible, has got to come from within BB itself...between the athletes and those in charge of pro-BB. Right now, there are too many internal wars being waged, too much needless bickering that only harms the sport as a whole. There are individuals on both sides that fingers can be pointed at, but that's not really the point. Yet the structure does need to evolve in a positive manner if progress is ever to be made in a serious stride.

Do you think a strict adherence to the Manion "belly ban" edict would help?

[Vince B]

There are many issues here and not a single one.

There are ethical issues. Should illegal drugs be allowed in professional bodybuilding. Should there be testing and disqualifications and banning? Should Synthol be allowed? Should breast enlargements be allowed? Should women have equality in contests and prize money? Should bodybuilders be allowed to compete where they like?

There are aesthetic issues. Should big guts be allowed? Should symmetry and aesthetics count more in contests? Should females be allowed to augment size to compensate for breast loss?

There are financial issues. What kinds of contests draw more money? How can promoters make the most money? Which professionals are marketable? Does women's bodybuilding pay?

Then there are IFBB issues. What rules do they enforce and which do they overlook? Who is the athletes rep and how is he determined? Who gets elected to run the professional division? Etc., etc.

There are health and fitness issues. Are steroids and other drugs dangerous to health? What are the long-term effects of drug use? Should women take male hormones? Should chemicals be injected into muscles to increase size? Does heavy mass affect health?

Then there are athletes issues. What do the athletes think and want? Should there be contracts? Should prize money be increased? Should there be testing.

Finally there are fan issues. What do the fans want? Should the fan base be enlarged? Should fans have a say in this sport?

Oh, I forgot, there are issues re Chick. What he determines will be what happens in the sport. That is, if he isn't convinced then nothing will change. If he is convinced he will say it is a good idea and sweep it under the carpet.

Rule 1 in the IFBB. Obey the directions of your superiors. All other rules see Rule 1.

[AZbodybuilder]

If the IFBB drug tested, they would still have the best physiques in the world.  You can't use physiques from current natural organizations as the benchmark to what's achievable.  Fan attendance is low at natural contests, because they have B League bodybuilders.  If the IFBB was drug tested, a lot of the guys would still look good.  For every fan lost, there would be another gained because of the testing.     

I don't think any IFBB Pro's would have made it to that level without drugs. I also don't agree the fans would still be there, kind of like watching  amateur Drag racing after seeing the Top Fuel Funny Cars, Boring !

[MisterMagoo]

Exactly what the reality is. Of course this would end the 'drugs will make you Mr Olympia myth' .

So many guys are in denial that without the genetics and drive to be a champ, all the drugs in the world won't make it happen.

dude, they can't now. it may have been possible in the 1960s or 1970s when mr olympia was 235, but if they went drug testing now two things would happen.

1) every single ifbb pro would be gone until the time limit of how long you have to be "clean" was up.

2) mr olympia would be minimum 80 pounds lighter than he is now.

if arnold was mr olympia and then the next guy was 205, they could just say that they're going for "shape over size" and that's why, but when the entire olympia crop is 60+ pounds lighter than it's been in 10 years, that casts such an awful shadow over pretty much every IFBB contest that's ever happened.

testing all the athletes and watching them shrink down would prove irrefutably just how much drugs play a part. as it stands they can at least go for innocence by degree, that it's "not as much as you'd think". but when lee haney's 240, dorian's 260, ronnie's between 250 and 290, jay's over 270, and the next guy is 195? now everyone in the "non-tested" era is tainted.

[Arnold jr]

Do you think a strict adherence to the Manion "belly ban" edict would help?

Maybe, but I don't see that as being as big of a flaw in the sport as many do. I agree, big "bellies" flopping over posing trunks, of course this is bad...protruding midsection (slightly) because ones abs have become so thick, just like the rest of the physique, this is totally differant...of course there is a fine line as to what is still and should be acceptable IMO.

Again, I still believe that marketing the BB in a positive light and manner is the ultimate key. Change the perception of the sport by means of allure and then you've got something. Think about it, if some of those fat slobs in the WWE can be made into superstars and viewed as "muscle kings" then it should be a simple task to do the same in pro-BB.