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Author Topic: Captivity vs. Danger of the wilderness  (Read 3277 times)
temper35
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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2007, 10:44:07 AM »

Dude, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one.  See my above post please. 

I am not attacking you.

I relate most animals, and I shouldn't do this because it isn't applicable to dogs.  I do not know if those polar bears or suffering or if they are "unhappy", but you can always make a guess.  This is how I look at it.  A dog can adapt to almost anything.  How many dogs do you see chained up in yards that live for 10 years?  Alot.  Animals also don't complain so they'll deal with whatever you give them.  But just because an animal can live outside in someones yard with a heavy chain around its neck for years, and he eats leftover table scrabs and drinks water from a dirty bucket...it doesn't mean that it is right.

All I was saying all along is just because they can survive in a zoo in a city like mine does not mean it is the best possible scenario.

Every animal should have the opportunity to live their life in their natural habitat.  We don't take animals from zoos and put them into the wild, it happens the other way around.
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emn1964
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2007, 02:45:56 PM »

. . .Every animal should have the opportunity to live their life in their natural habitat.  We don't take animals from zoos and put them into the wild, it happens the other way around.

Just wondering, do zoos still capture wild animals and place them in zoos?  Or are they from zoo breeding stock?  Maybe vet could shine a little light on this.
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Vet
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« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2007, 03:59:28 PM »

Just wondering, do zoos still capture wild animals and place them in zoos?  Or are they from zoo breeding stock?  Maybe vet could shine a little light on this.

It really depends on the species.... some are, some are rereleased, others arent.  A couple of examples---African Elephants--the push now is to only remove those from the wild that would serve for breeding stock to maintain a captive population.  For example, a young bull would be taken from the wild in an area like Kruger, where there is an overpopulation of wild elephants and the bull stands a chance of eventually needing to be culled or becoming a nusance animal.  From there it would breed with captive bred females thereby keeping their genetic lines "fresh" and preventing inbreeding. 

A second example:  sumatran rhinos---there was a male rereleased for breeding purposes from the Cincinati Zoo not too long ago.  This is a critically endangered animal, so all genes are considered "valuable" to the species.  heres a couple of links with what Cincinnati is doing:
http://cincinnatizoo.org/Conservation/GlobalConservation/SumatranRhino/BirthAnnouncement/announcement.html

http://www.cincyzoo.org/visitorguide/pressroom/CurrentReleases/AndalasArrives.pdf

This is really a flagship effort that I think reflects the science and biology research side of zoos that so much of the public overlook. 


A final example:  there is a certian wild animal park I'm aware of in North America (I can't say the name because I'm not sure what their press release status is) that is in the process of moving several captive bred Asian One-Horned (Indian) rhinos back to India in exchange for 2 or 3 young females.  The idea is to rerelease the captive bred animals into the wild and use the younger females for captive breeding to keep the genepool from stagnating .  So in this case its a trade of one for the other.  This is a species that was on the brink of extinction not too long ago with a wild population of less than 100 animals. Now there are over 2000 world wide.   They are still in trouble, but because of conservation efforts, captive breeding, and zoos like White Oak, the Bronx Zoo, The Wilds, Cincinnati, and the San Diego Zoo, captive breeding is being largely successful. 



Are animals still taken from the wild?   Yes, but typically its much less commen now than it was when I was a kid and rerelease efforts are becoming more common (depending on the species). 
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Eyeball Chambers
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« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2007, 04:09:20 PM »

I want to open a Zoo like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_Zone
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S
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2007, 04:30:04 PM »

Yes, he owns me.  They should move all the polar bears in the world to the San Diego zoo.  THE WATER IS COOLED!

No both of you I wasn't saying either of you got owned or did owning. I was just saying that Vet had some very good points on that one as well did Temper I just felt that Vet had a few better ones. Who really cares about ownings on the internet.. Forget all that childish shit... Shocked
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temper35
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2007, 06:10:06 PM »

It really depends on the species.... some are, some are rereleased, others arent.  A couple of examples---African Elephants--the push now is to only remove those from the wild that would serve for breeding stock to maintain a captive population.  For example, a young bull would be taken from the wild in an area like Kruger, where there is an overpopulation of wild elephants and the bull stands a chance of eventually needing to be culled or becoming a nusance animal.  From there it would breed with captive bred females thereby keeping their genetic lines "fresh" and preventing inbreeding. 

A second example:  sumatran rhinos---there was a male rereleased for breeding purposes from the Cincinati Zoo not too long ago.  This is a critically endangered animal, so all genes are considered "valuable" to the species.  heres a couple of links with what Cincinnati is doing:
http://cincinnatizoo.org/Conservation/GlobalConservation/SumatranRhino/BirthAnnouncement/announcement.html

http://www.cincyzoo.org/visitorguide/pressroom/CurrentReleases/AndalasArrives.pdf

This is really a flagship effort that I think reflects the science and biology research side of zoos that so much of the public overlook. 


A final example:  there is a certian wild animal park I'm aware of in North America (I can't say the name because I'm not sure what their press release status is) that is in the process of moving several captive bred Asian One-Horned (Indian) rhinos back to India in exchange for 2 or 3 young females.  The idea is to rerelease the captive bred animals into the wild and use the younger females for captive breeding to keep the genepool from stagnating .  So in this case its a trade of one for the other.  This is a species that was on the brink of extinction not too long ago with a wild population of less than 100 animals. Now there are over 2000 world wide.   They are still in trouble, but because of conservation efforts, captive breeding, and zoos like White Oak, the Bronx Zoo, The Wilds, Cincinnati, and the San Diego Zoo, captive breeding is being largely successful. 



Are animals still taken from the wild?   Yes, but typically its much less commen now than it was when I was a kid and rerelease efforts are becoming more common (depending on the species). 

Most animals that are raised in captivity probably couldn't be transferred back to the wild, right?  Curious.  I know dogs, not rhinos and shit =P
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emn1964
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2007, 08:51:14 AM »

It really depends on the species.... some are, some are rereleased, others arent.  A couple of examples---African Elephants--the push now is to only remove those from the wild that would serve for breeding stock to maintain a captive population.  For example, a young bull would be taken from the wild in an area like Kruger, where there is an overpopulation of wild elephants and the bull stands a chance of eventually needing to be culled or becoming a nusance animal.  From there it would breed with captive bred females thereby keeping their genetic lines "fresh" and preventing inbreeding. 

A second example:  sumatran rhinos---there was a male rereleased for breeding purposes from the Cincinati Zoo not too long ago.  This is a critically endangered animal, so all genes are considered "valuable" to the species.  heres a couple of links with what Cincinnati is doing:
http://cincinnatizoo.org/Conservation/GlobalConservation/SumatranRhino/BirthAnnouncement/announcement.html

http://www.cincyzoo.org/visitorguide/pressroom/CurrentReleases/AndalasArrives.pdf

This is really a flagship effort that I think reflects the science and biology research side of zoos that so much of the public overlook. 


A final example:  there is a certian wild animal park I'm aware of in North America (I can't say the name because I'm not sure what their press release status is) that is in the process of moving several captive bred Asian One-Horned (Indian) rhinos back to India in exchange for 2 or 3 young females.  The idea is to rerelease the captive bred animals into the wild and use the younger females for captive breeding to keep the genepool from stagnating .  So in this case its a trade of one for the other.  This is a species that was on the brink of extinction not too long ago with a wild population of less than 100 animals. Now there are over 2000 world wide.   They are still in trouble, but because of conservation efforts, captive breeding, and zoos like White Oak, the Bronx Zoo, The Wilds, Cincinnati, and the San Diego Zoo, captive breeding is being largely successful. 



Are animals still taken from the wild?   Yes, but typically its much less commen now than it was when I was a kid and rerelease efforts are becoming more common (depending on the species). 

Thanks Vet.  Very interesting information.  The genetic diversity of captive bred zoo animals is one of the things I always wondered about.  Sort of like inbreeding with dogs and propigating a genetic disorder like blindness or deafness or what have you. 
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Vet
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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2007, 11:32:44 AM »

Most animals that are raised in captivity probably couldn't be transferred back to the wild, right?  Curious.  I know dogs, not rhinos and shit =P

Again, it depends on the species.....

Raptors are a great example.  If the baby birds are allowed to imprint on humans, they stand a very good chance of not being able to survive in the wild statistically.  Steps are taken while raising eggs of these types of birds to prevent imprinting on humans.  And even with that said, I know of more than one Harris hawk that was hand raised that has escaped from captivity (one from a raptor education program, two from private falconers) who lived for months in the wild before being recaptured.  All of the birds had lost about 10% of their bodyweight (you could argue they were "fat" before they escaped) and were hungry when they were recaptured, but none of them were worse for wear. 

I know of several reptiles that have escaped after generations in captivity and lived with no ill effects.  One of the best I can think of off the top of my head was a juvenile cream colored California kingsnake (obviously a mutation that was the product of human breeding) that a client of mine in New York City had escape when they let a friend watch it during spring break.  This friend lived over a popular resteraunt in that part of the city.  The snake was recaptured in October, literally almost twice the size it was when it escaped.  We identified the snake based on pictures (all California kingsnakes have a unique color pattern that stays the same throughout their life).  It had doubled in weight and was several inches longer.  I had a really hard time convincing those owners that their snake had an obvious large food source readily available (ie that resteraunt had a rat/mouse problem  Wink.   They couldn't understand that. 

I've successfully released white tailed deer, rabbits, squirrels, coyotes, raccoons, opossums and other animals that I've personally bottlefed and raised from newborn to adulthood through the wildlife center and other places I've worked.  There are also "training" programs done for alot of these animals---some of which seem to work very well, others which don't.  Basically once the animal is weaned, they are forced to forage for food under supervision.  I have seen some animals (raccoons and possums) that seem to become nuisances after being released because they've lost their fear of humans.  The bottom line is it really, really depends on the individual animal and the species involved.  There are no cut and dry rules that fit all animals across the board.   
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Vet
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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2007, 11:49:01 AM »

Thanks Vet.  Very interesting information.  The genetic diversity of captive bred zoo animals is one of the things I always wondered about.  Sort of like inbreeding with dogs and propigating a genetic disorder like blindness or deafness or what have you. 

Yes, there is an extensive program for preserving genetic diversity in both wild and captive populations.  The days of inbreeding are gone.  The Species Survival Plan/Taxon Advisory Group/Population Managment Programs (SSP/TAG/PMP) for different species in AZA (and ZAOA) zoos are a good example http://www.aza.org/ConScience/ConScienceSSPFact/.  The days of brother-sister breedings are gone in accredited zoos.  Those practices are why a large portion of the captive lion population in North America is related to each other.  It doesn't happen anymore.  The development of the Wildlife Contraceptive Center means that inbreedings can be prevented.  Genetic disorders are monitored (Like hip dysplasia in snow leopards) and animals that have a high genetic predisposition for those disorders may be contracepted.  Or animals where there is a high risk of brother/sister/mother/father offspring occuring.  Accredited zoos that do not follow those recommendations can be severely penalized---to the point of loosing the ability to display SSP species. 

The lack of breeding management is a big problem I have with some of the "wildlife sanctuaries" and its something that needs to be considered when evaluating either a zoo or some other place.  I don't consider it benificial to the species if a group of them are allowed to randomly inbreed, further limiting their gene pool. 
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temper35
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« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2007, 12:24:54 PM »

It'd be awesome to play with a baby tiger or lion.  Seriously, I think that'd be awesome.  How could I make that happen Vet, haha.
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Vet
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« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2007, 01:12:55 PM »

It'd be awesome to play with a baby tiger or lion.  Seriously, I think that'd be awesome.  How could I make that happen Vet, haha.

Its all in who you know.....   Wink
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~flower~
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2007, 01:43:48 PM »


 Marsupials that stay in the pouch till full grown, where does all the pee and poop go?
 
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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2007, 02:03:20 PM »


 Marsupials that stay in the pouch till full grown, where does all the pee and poop go?
 


The mother eats it. 
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temper35
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2007, 02:46:27 PM »

Its all in who you know.....   Wink

A family member of mine belongs to a very big law firm that represents the zoo here, and donates to it.  They have cubs currently, but they aren't open to the public, even to sponsors.  My gf always wanted to do that and I think it'd be a cool thing to do too.  I will have to look into it!
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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2007, 02:58:27 PM »


The mother eats it. 

 She sticks her head in the pouch and cleans it out?  blech!!  Tongue
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