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MCWAY
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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2009, 11:35:32 AM »

...any evidence from impartial sources?

Or just this crazy conjecture?



The Luke

You can check the source for yourself (hence the reason I left the link, as well as the reference to Hoffmeier's book).
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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2009, 05:11:45 PM »

You can check the source for yourself (hence the reason I left the link, as well as the reference to Hoffmeier's book).

...I've read both sides of this arument.

One is a reasoned, plausible theory based on archaeological evidence. The other is wishful thinking devoid of proper evidence championed solely on religous considerations.


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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2009, 05:06:32 AM »

...I've read both sides of this arument.

One is a reasoned, plausible theory based on archaeological evidence. The other is wishful thinking devoid of proper evidence championed solely on religous considerations.


The Luke

I've read both sides of this argument, too.

One is reasoned, plausible theory, based on archaeological evidence. The other is wishful thinking, devoid of common sense or consideration of the aforementioned evidence, championed almost exclusively on ANTI-RELIGIOUS considerations.

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2009, 01:12:36 PM »

MCWAY have you seen the 1923 version of the 10 Commandments yet?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0014532/
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2009, 01:13:44 PM »

MCWAY have you seen the 1923 version of the 10 Commandments yet?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0014532/

No, I haven't!
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2009, 01:24:41 PM »

I've read both sides of this argument, too.

One is reasoned, plausible theory, based on archaeological evidence. The other is wishful thinking, devoid of common sense or consideration of the aforementioned evidence, championed almost exclusively on ANTI-RELIGIOUS considerations.


...wrong way round.

The archaeologists reckon they have actually found the tomb and body of Moses, thereby proving the historicity of the Bible character... whereas the Bible nuts hold fast to the claim that "his tomb will never be found" (that's a Bible quote is it not?).


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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2009, 01:28:59 PM »


...wrong way round.

The archaeologists reckon they have actually found the tomb and body of Moses, thereby proving the historicity of the Bible character... whereas the Bible nuts hold fast to the claim that "his tomb will never be found" (that's a Bible quote is it not?).


The Luke

The historicity of Moses has LONG been proven. Few, if any, were looking for these archaeologists to do any "proving" of such.

There are plenty of ancient figures whose tombs have NOT been found. Are we now going to assume that they never existed or were fabricated, until their alleged bodies get "found"?  Roll Eyes

The skeptic "nuts" once screamed that Moses never existed, as they've done with many other figures mentioned in Scripture, only to end up with egg on their faces once the facts get unearthed.
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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2009, 02:23:11 PM »

The skeptic "nuts" once screamed that Moses never existed, as they've done with many other figures mentioned in Scripture, only to end up with egg on their faces once the facts get unearthed.

...that sounds like an open-minded evidence based approach.


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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2009, 02:56:51 PM »

...that sounds like an open-minded evidence based approach.


The Luke

Try obtaining a clue for once. Historical evidence for the existence of Moses has been around for CENTURIES and cited by scholars.

The claims that Moses never existed came squarely from Biblical skeptics and atheists, who have now resorted to more backtracking and crow-munching, after YET MORE historical evidence supports the existence of this man and the events associated with his life.


 In fact, with regards to the Ten Commandments movie, DeMille cites during the opening credits some of the historical sources he used when making his film.

As usual, you're late to the party, Luke.
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2009, 03:30:25 PM »

Try obtaining a clue for once. Historical evidence for the existence of Moses has been around for CENTURIES and cited by scholars.

The claims that Moses never existed came squarely from Biblical skeptics and atheists, who have now resorted to more backtracking and crow-munching, after YET MORE historical evidence supports the existence of this man and the events associated with his life.


 In fact, with regards to the Ten Commandments movie, DeMille cites during the opening credits some of the historical sources he used when making his film.

As usual, you're late to the party, Luke.

...but the Bible claims Moses' tomb would never be found, and it (most probably) has been. In Petra.

You don't get to Petra by crossing the Red Sea, you get to Petra by crossing Lake Manzaal.



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« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2009, 04:04:55 PM »

...but the Bible claims Moses' tomb would never be found, and it (most probably) has been. In Petra.

You don't get to Petra by crossing the Red Sea, you get to Petra by crossing Lake Manzaal.



The Luke


Where does the Bible claim that Moses' tomb would never be found? There's only one verse about it of which I'm aware and it says simply that "but no man knows his burial place to this day" (i.e. the completion of that particular book).

Plus, it appears you're late to the party again, as somebody else has claimed to have found Moses' tomb (ironically enough, it's the same place where Muslims claim Jesus is buried).
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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2009, 04:51:31 PM »

Where does the Bible claim that Moses' tomb would never be found? There's only one verse about it of which I'm aware and it says simply that "but no man knows his burial place to this day" (i.e. the completion of that particular book).

...more honest translations have "...no man will ever know his burial place".

The tomb is pretty well hidden, and the path to it leads from the holy shrine. Only high priests allowed into the presence of the Ark of the Covenant would even have access to it.

There is supposed to be more about it in the Book of Jasher (Jasher is the true King of the Jews, ruling from Petra: the armoured angelic man Joshua bows down to at Jericho). But sadly the Book of Jasher is one of many books that have been removed from the Christian Bible.

This is the big problem with translations aimed at Christian audiences, it panders to their conceits.

The god of Genesis is referred to as "God" when it should be "gods": plural, as it refers to the planetary gods; similar mistranslations conflate Yahweh (a storm god) with his companion Zodiac gods.

There's lots of this stuff... Exodus is full of such dishonest interpretations.


Plus, it appears you're late to the party again, as somebody else has claimed to have found Moses' tomb (ironically enough, it's the same place where Muslims claim Jesus is buried).

...Mary Magdalene, the Virgin Mary, Jesus, even Jesus' donkey are all supposedly buried in Kashmir too. All with good provenance and traditions dating back to the first century.

...Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary are also buried in southern France. Again, all with good provenance and traditions dating back to the first century.

...Jesus and his brother, James the Just, are also buried in Japan. Where their descendants (hundreds of thousands of them) maintain such a tradition.

...here in Europe we even had three tons of the One True Cross spread across all Christendom. All gathered by hand by the very same Christian saint who supposedly made Christianity the national faith of the Roman Empire... these bits even cured the sick and performed miracles: ALL of them.


But you don't need to address any of this.

What you believe is factually true in its entirety; even the mistranslations; even the misspellings. But not the stuff that had been edited out of your Holy Book by the time you read it... when you read it it became perfectly accurate and wholly true. It's the people who believed in the other versions of this book throughout history who were wrong.

Yours and yours alone is the sole true and accurate religion out of the 34,000 current variations of Christianity.


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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2009, 06:26:06 PM »

...more honest translations have "...no man will ever know his burial place".

And what, do tell, are these alleged "honest translations"?


The tomb is pretty well hidden, and the path to it leads from the holy shrine. Only high priests allowed into the presence of the Ark of the Covenant would even have access to it.

The general location of where Moses was buried is stated in Scripture, "....in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor." You don't do that, if the intent is that the site NEVER be found.

But, why let that get in the way of yet another pointless and off-the-mark quip of yours?


There is supposed to be more about it in the Book of Jasher (Jasher is the true King of the Jews, ruling from Petra: the armoured angelic man Joshua bows down to at Jericho). But sadly the Book of Jasher is one of many books that have been removed from the Christian Bible.

This is the big problem with translations aimed at Christian audiences, it panders to their conceits.

The god of Genesis is referred to as "God" when it should be "gods": plural, as it refers to the planetary gods; similar mistranslations conflate Yahweh (a storm god) with his companion Zodiac gods.

There's lots of this stuff... Exodus is full of such dishonest interpretations.

I'm afraid the one "full of" something is YOU.



...Mary Magdalene, the Virgin Mary, Jesus, even Jesus' donkey are all supposedly buried in Kashmir too. All with good provenance and traditions dating back to the first century.

...Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary are also buried in southern France. Again, all with good provenance and traditions dating back to the first century.

...Jesus and his brother, James the Just, are also buried in Japan. Where their descendants (hundreds of thousands of them) maintain such a tradition.

...here in Europe we even had three tons of the One True Cross spread across all Christendom. All gathered by hand by the very same Christian saint who supposedly made Christianity the national faith of the Roman Empire... these bits even cured the sick and performed miracles: ALL of them.


But you don't need to address any of this.

What you believe is factually true in its entirety; even the mistranslations; even the misspellings. But not the stuff that had been edited out of your Holy Book by the time you read it... when you read it it became perfectly accurate and wholly true. It's the people who believed in the other versions of this book throughout history who were wrong.

Yours and yours alone is the sole true and accurate religion out of the 34,000 current variations of Christianity.


The Luke

Comic relief as its finest, just as ridiculous as your claims about the USA not winning any wars.

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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2009, 07:12:46 PM »

And what, do tell, are these alleged "honest translations"?

The general location of where Moses was buried is stated in Scripture. But, why let that get in the way of yet another pointless and off-the-mark quip of yours?

I'm afraid the one "full of" something is YOU.

Comic relief as its finest, just as ridiculous as your claims about the USA not winning any wars.


...no points addressed.


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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2009, 07:48:39 PM »


...no points addressed.


The Luke

Ummmm......What are these alleged "honest translations" that claim that no one would find Moses' tomb, as opposed to the text (Deu. 34) which claims that its exact location was simply unknown but given the general vicinity of where it is?



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« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2009, 08:23:27 PM »

Ummmm......What are these alleged "honest translations" that claim that no one would find Moses' tomb, as opposed to the text (Deu. 34) which claims that its exact location was simply unknown but given the general vicinity of where it is?


...well, I know this won't sit well with you, but the Bble wasn't originally written in English.

It's full of mistranslations; misunderstood colloqialisms an other errors... if it really is the literal word of god, god is dyslexic.



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« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2009, 08:30:02 PM »


...well, I know this won't sit well with you, but the Bble wasn't originally written in English.

I know that, EINSTEIN!!!


It's full of mistranslations; misunderstood colloqialisms an other errors... if it really is the literal word of god, god is dyslexic.



The Luke

Once again, O cowardly one, where is the alleged "honest translations" which reads that Moses' tomb would never be found?

You made the claim, "..more honest translations have "...no man will ever know his burial place".

Let's see you back it up with some facts (for once). What are these "more honest translations" that read such (not to mention the reason why the general location of Moses' tomb would be given, if the intent is that it never be found).

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« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2009, 09:06:24 PM »

Let's see you back it up with some facts (for once). What are these "more honest translations" that read such (not to mention the reason why the general location of Moses' tomb would be given, if the intent is that it never be found).

...ancient Hebrew dosn't have explicit temporal tenses; the best translation would assume the tautolgy is redundant and unintended so opting for the "never" instead.

It was assumed that it would NEVER be found, because it is on the Mountain of God, which is strictly off limits.


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« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2009, 09:10:57 PM »

...ancient Hebrew dosn't have explicit temporal tenses; the best translation would assume the tautolgy is redundant and unintended so opting for the "never" instead.

It was assumed that it would NEVER be found, because it is on the Mountain of God, which is strictly off limits.


The Luke

One more time!! What is the actual translation that reads as such?

Again, YOU made the claim. It's time to support it with some actual facts, instead of the usual flap you tend to spout.
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« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2009, 09:18:19 PM »

One more time!! What is the actual translation that reads as such?

Again, YOU made the claim. It's time to support it with some actual facts, instead of the usual flap you tend to spout.

Do you want the Hebrew? Do you speak Hebrew?

I personally don't think it matters, if the tomb of Moses has been found then:
-"has not been found to this day"
-"has not been found today"
-"will never be found"

...they ALL become factually inaccurate.

You don't actually think that because Christians assert the Bible to be the literal word of god, that whichever translation YOU as a Christian adhere to is somehow immune to mistranslations? Do you?


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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2009, 05:01:53 AM »

Do you want the Hebrew? Do you speak Hebrew?

Luke, get a clue! We have online dictionaries that interpret the Hebrew into English.

Plus, you said, "more honest translations", which imply that the original Hebrew is being translated into other languages....namely ENGLISH!!

So, cease with your cowardly dancing and ducking and answer the question.


I personally don't think it matters, if the tomb of Moses has been found then:
-"has not been found to this day"
-"has not been found today"
-"will never be found"

...they ALL become factually inaccurate.

Just when I think you can't say anything more mind-bogglingly ridiculous, you top yourself.

The phrase, "but no man knows his burial place to this day" from Deut. 34, in no way, shape, or form suggest that Moses' tomb would never be found.

"Has not been found today" or "but no man knows his burial place to this day" simply mean that the exact location is unknown, as of the conclusion of the completion of Deuteronomy. And, once again, you have yet to explain why that same verse (Deu. 34:6) would give the general location of the tomb, if the intent was that it NEVER be found.


You don't actually think that because Christians assert the Bible to be the literal word of god, that whichever translation YOU as a Christian adhere to is somehow immune to mistranslations? Do you?


The Luke

Ummmm.....boy genius, quit trying to hide behind your foolish quips and answer the question: Which of the alleged "more honest translations" makes the statement that Moses' tomb would never be found?

Your "cluck and duck" act is getting old.

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« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2009, 12:47:51 PM »


The archaeologists reckon they have actually found the tomb and body of Moses, thereby proving the historicity of the Bible character... whereas the Bible nuts hold fast to the claim that "his tomb will never be found" (that's a Bible quote is it not?).


The Luke


It's impossible to find the body of Moses. Why? In view of the Biblical attitude toward dead bodies, it is evident that the veneration of the bodies of prominent servants of God was not practiced or countenanced. Moses’ body was buried by God himself via the Archangel, Michael in an unknown site, and this also made impossible any future pilgrimages to his burial place. (De 34:5, 6; compare Jude 9).

So, then, God would not have allowed for his body to be discovered for these reasons alone. The devil would like nothing more than to be able to have Moses' body worshiped erroneously by false religionists.






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« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2009, 12:54:31 PM »

It's impossible to find the body of Moses. Why? In view of the Biblical attitude toward dead bodies, it is evident that the veneration of the bodies of prominent servants of God was not practiced or countenanced. Moses’ body was buried by God himself via the Archangel, Michael in an unknown site, and this also made impossible any future pilgrimages to his burial place. (De 34:5, 6; compare Jude 9).

...absolutely epic. Supposedly the Archangels Michael and Uriel used to live about 50 miles from my house at a site named Newgrange (Knowth and Dowth).


So, then, God would not have allowed for his body to be discovered for these reasons alone. The devil would like nothing more than to be able to have Moses' body worshiped erroneously by false religionists.

...his body and tomb were already (probably) found in Petra (Jordan) on Jebul Madbh (the mountain of god).

According to the Mandeans/Johannites John the Baptist was Christ and Jesus was the Antichrist, so the devil might have already won that battle.


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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2009, 12:59:36 PM »

...absolutely epic. Supposedly the Archangels Michael and Uriel used to live about 50 miles from my house at a site named Newgrange (Knowth and Dowth).

There is only one Archangel, Luke.

Quote
...his body and tomb were already (probably) found in Petra (Jordan) on Jebul Madbh (the mountain of god).

Not fact tho.





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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2009, 01:28:34 PM »


It's impossible to find the body of Moses. Why? In view of the Biblical attitude toward dead bodies, it is evident that the veneration of the bodies of prominent servants of God was not practiced or countenanced. Moses’ body was buried by God himself via the Archangel, Michael in an unknown site, and this also made impossible any future pilgrimages to his burial place. (De 34:5, 6; compare Jude 9).

So, then, God would not have allowed for his body to be discovered for these reasons alone. The devil would like nothing more than to be able to have Moses' body worshiped erroneously by false religionists.


GC/DEA_AGENT


The verse in Deut. 34 simply states that no one knows "to this day" where Moses' tomb was. But, it gives the general location, "in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor"

Luke contends that this is a "dishonest translation", claiming that Scripture claims the tomb would never be found. And, since he thinks it has been found, he holds the alleged Bible claim to be wrong.

I've asked him to produce the "more honest translations" that supposedly support his claims. To the surprise of.....NO ONE, he's come up with zilch.
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