Author Topic: Ron Paul  (Read 15409 times)

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2007, 02:42:46 PM »
So you think publicy funded fire, police depratments, and universitys is a bad thing? Have you read the history books? This is the exact reason why we had a civil war. It might be a step forward for businesses but for science, technology, education, and the overall well being of the united states it is a step backwards. People like Hitler came to power from isolationist policies.


Who the hell said anything about fire and police?  You're just pulling shit out of your ass now.  ::)
Ron: "I am lazy."

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2007, 02:43:40 PM »

Who the hell said anything about fire and police?  You're just pulling shit out of your ass now.  ::)
No im not. It is the main argument for all your Ron Paul Libertarian yuppies. Funding of police and fire departments is a violation of the 10th amendment.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2007, 02:46:10 PM »
Mike Gravel is better.  Ron Paul is a republican.
Hahah exactly. I am tired of these capitalistic animals and there corporate influence over politics. Everyone looking out for the own interests instead of the overall well being of the nation. Hint: Economics is not the only way to develop society. Look at China with their fragmented authoritarianism and allowing the localities run all over the place and shit up the enviroment. China isn't looking so good right now for political stability.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2007, 02:46:25 PM »
Take a look at China and you will see what happens when unrestricted capitalism occurs. Libertarians hold the same views as social darwinists like John C. Calhoun, Sumner, and other pro slave supporters from his time. In the 1800's the messages of Thomas Paine, Thoreau, and many other advocates of freedom had their message changed from individual freedom to capitalistic freedom.

I agree.  One of the opinions stated on here was that capitalism is good in the long run but can have negative affects in the short term but this is actually the opposite.  Fluctuations in the market make it extremely difficult to predict long term which makes stability difficult to maintain.
A

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2007, 03:10:21 PM »
He was not called on as much as the other candidates. Hell, Mitt Romney got more chances to speak and he sucks. Mccain is sucks too and he was destroying him.

They assigned time based upon polling.  Ron Paul probably got the 5th most time.  He pwned tancredo and the other schmoes, and yeah, I think he spoke more than thompson too.  Paul was focused upon a lot of the time, and IIRC, he was standing near the middle cluster too. 

I believe Ron Paul is a good guy and has honest intentions but to take us back in time before the Civil War is just silly. You still have not addressed the issues of losing public funding for police and fire departments, universites, technology and research, etc... Don't give me the 10th amendment bs either. Do you honestly think the state of Lousiana can fund itself? The only thing that will happen under Ron Paul politics is polarization of this country. Economic inequality has 9 out of 10 times been the main cause of war throughout history.

THAT sections of Paul's agenda won't pass.  Congress won't let it.  But he will be able to stop the war, disarm DHS a bit, reclaim liberties here by ending the Patriot Act, and getting things a bit more honest in DC. 

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2007, 03:11:56 PM »
They assigned time based upon polling.  Ron Paul probably got the 5th most time.  He pwned tancredo and the other schmoes, and yeah, I think he spoke more than thompson too.  Paul was focused upon a lot of the time, and IIRC, he was standing near the middle cluster too. 

THAT sections of Paul's agenda won't pass.  Congress won't let it.  But he will be able to stop the war, disarm DHS a bit, reclaim liberties here by ending the Patriot Act, and getting things a bit more honest in DC. 
So will Mike Gravel? What's the difference you say? Mike Gravel isn't dangerous to this country. Im tired of Ron Paulers acting like Mike and Ron are exactly the same when they are polar opposites.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2007, 03:13:04 PM »
Leafy,

I agree that Gravel made an insane amount of sense.

Problem is, at this point, he's irrelevant in this process.  If he was 5th among the dems and have ten mil to spend, I'd be talking about his chances.  Since supporting him is in reality an exercise in futility now - and since Ron Paul actually *can* take 2-4 in Iowa and then clean house as an Independent, he is relevant.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2007, 03:14:00 PM »
Im tired of Ron Paulers acting like Mike and Ron are exactly the same when they are polar opposites.

Both support ending Patriot act and war in Iraq.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2007, 03:14:56 PM »
Leafy,

I agree that Gravel made an insane amount of sense.

Problem is, at this point, he's irrelevant in this process.  If he was 5th among the dems and have ten mil to spend, I'd be talking about his chances.  Since supporting him is in reality an exercise in futility now - and since Ron Paul actually *can* take 2-4 in Iowa and then clean house as an Independent, he is relevant.
The election isn't over. No one thought Bill Clinton would get in office either. When Americans are actually polled on the Issues Dennis Kucinish and Mike Gravel come out on top. Ron Paul is DEAD LAST.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »
The election isn't over. No one thought Bill Clinton would get in office either. When Americans are actually polled on the Issues Dennis Kucinish and Mike Gravel come out on top. Ron Paul is DEAD LAST.

historically, the candidates with $ win.

Ron Paul has money now.

I'd possibly choose Gravel over Paul, I don't know.
I do know that I'd choose Paul over most others running now, if not all.

Gravel has zero chance.  This isn't an attack on him, it's an analysis based upon his coverage, populace awareness, and money. 

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2007, 03:54:18 PM »
Leafy, your main objections to Ron Paul are that you are pro-gay and anti-christian correct ?

       Ron Paul and Deniis Kucinich would both be fine improvements.  Ron Paul is a very honest and good man, so is Dennis Kucinich.
     

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2007, 04:49:51 PM »
historically, the candidates with $ win.

Ron Paul has money now.

I'd possibly choose Gravel over Paul, I don't know.
I do know that I'd choose Paul over most others running now, if not all.

Gravel has zero chance.  This isn't an attack on him, it's an analysis based upon his coverage, populace awareness, and money. 

Ron Paul WILL NOT turn independent.  He will drop out and not go independent as he does not want to lose the seat he has in the House. 


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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2007, 04:59:21 PM »
240 and supporters: PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELVES on Ron Paul.  He is Anti-Secular and NOT in line with the Constitution at all:Wake the hell up.

Authoritarian or Libertarian? Ron Paul on Church/State Separation, Secularism

Ron Paul is frequently portrayed as a "sensible" conservative and staunch libertarian, thus making him increasingly attractive as a presidential candidate. He's being strongly promoted to libertarians, conservatives fed up with Bush and the Christian Right, and Democrats dissatisfied with the current crop of Democratic candidates. At the same time, though, Ron Paul demonstrates the limits of wedding libertarianism with social and political conservatism. They simply don't mesh well.
Ron Paul's consistent anti-war position has made him popular, but how many people also understand his rejection of secularism and church/state separation? How many realize that his "states' rights" rhetoric is a mask concealing a desire to use the government to promote "traditional marriage" and criminalize abortion? Ron Paul is only a "libertarian" where and when it's convenient. Much of the rest of the time, he's not merely a social conservative but a religious conservative promoting an agenda very close to that of Christian Nationalists.

If Ron Paul were a serious contender for the presidency, he'd be a significant threat to American secularism and liberty. Fortunately, he seems to have about as much chance of getting elected as I do — but this doesn’t mean that his candidacy won't influence people for the worse. In particular, I'm concerned about people learning to accept anti-secularism while making excuses for him and their support of him. The first and most important step in preventing that is to examine his ideas now and explain not only how wrong they are, but also why they represent such a threat.

 

According to Ron Paul himself (via Brent Rasmussen)

Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view. The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few.


It should be noted right at the beginning that Ron Paul consistently decries "secularism" and "secularists," though he more often uses the label "secular Left." This, perhaps more than many of his arguments, makes it clear where stands: squarely and unambiguously against a secular government, secular laws, and a secular America. This helps put him in the same camp as the extremist Christian Right. The second thing to note is that there isn't a single word in the above that's true. Ron Paul is employing a falsehood which has been very popular with theocrats of the Christian Right who seek to deceive voters about what secularism is and what the separation of church & state is all about. Ron Paul has either been duped by those deceivers, or he knows better yet is actively participating in the deception.

No one has launched any court cases seeking to drive religion "from public view." There have been no organized efforts to prevent people from promoting religion in public, from having religious images on their front lawns, or engaging in religious evangelism in the community. What's actually been happening is that people have tried to stop the "public," which is to say public funds and institutions, from promoting, supporting, or endorsing the religion of just some of the citizens. Usually those offering dishonest claims about this rely upon ambiguity in the word "public" (in public view vs. publicly funded), but Ron Paul doesn't even do this — his is an unambiguously false claim.

A true libertarian would support efforts to stop the government from funding and supporting one religion out of many. Libertarians believe in less government combined with private action, which is exactly what the "secular Left" is seeking to achieve in the context of religion. Libertarians believe that the scope of government action should be limited to only that which the Constitution authorizes — and when it comes to religion, the government is not authorized to do anything.

Ron Paul is not a libertarian when it comes to his own personal religious beliefs — he seems to believe that in a "largely Christian society," the government magically acquires the authority to promote and endorse Christianity. Of course, this means endorsing and promoting one particular version of Christianity out of all the possibilities. Ron Paul doesn't seem to mind this — or perhaps he supports it in the hopes that his form of Christianity will be the one favored?

 

Church & State in the Constitution
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

It is true that the Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by their religious beliefs, but Ron Paul makes two mistakes here. First, that fact does nothing to support this conclusion: being influenced by religion doesn't mean that one opposes church/state separation. Second, the religious beliefs of those men were not always consistent with the traditionalist Christianity of conservatives today. Thomas Jefferson, for example, denied the divinity of Jesus and that the miracle stories in the New Testament were true.

Many of the founders would be regarded as heretics according to traditional standards and that's why they supported removing from the government any authority over religious matters. It's bad enough when religious leaders have the power to harm those who dissent; it was deemed unacceptable for the state to have such power as well. Religion was conceived of as a private matter and not something which the state or any public institution to get involved with in any manner.

Ron Paul likes to make a big deal about having read the Constitution as part of an effort to create a contrast between himself and other politicians, but for someone who has read the Constitution he's incredibly ignorant of it's contents. The Constitution doesn't mention "God" at all — the closest it comes is the dating convention "in the year of our Lord." The Declaration of Independence also doesn't mention "God" in the sense of the Christian god — all references are standard deistic references to the Deistic god. The Declaration of Independence is a product of Deism, naturalism, and rationalism. It is not a Christian document.

Ron Paul is wrong when he claims that the Establishment Clause was only meant to prevent the creation of an official state church, but he's doing a good job at parroting the talking points of Christian Right extremists like James Dobson and Pat Robertson. I'm surprised that they haven't anointed him as their own chosen candidate, given that his opposition to secular liberty is every bit as strong and twisted as theirs.

 

Church Authority vs. Government Authority
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage.

Here Ron Paul's hostility to secular liberty is made unambiguous: he envisages and prefers a society where the government is weak but churches are strong. Has there ever been such a society that wasn't filled with intolerance, repression, and violence? If churches had more authority over the lives of citizens, there would be less liberty for women, less liberty for racial minorities, less liberty for gays, and of course less liberty for atheists.

It is arguable that the power and scope of the government creates alternatives and opportunities which make it easier for people to escape the power and influence of churches. Government welfare allows people to avoid relying on church hand-outs. Public schools allow people to avoid relying on church schools and church indoctrination. Civil marriage allows people to avoid having to marry in a church. Government social services of all sorts allow people to avoid being put under the thumb of priests and ministers in order to survive.

Opposing government provision of such services is, at least, consistent with libertarianism but libertarians take this position based on the principle that they are outside the scope of proper government authority. Agree or disagree with that, it's not Ron Paul's position: he opposes the government provision of such services because they prevent the power and authority of churches from superseding that of the government. Ron Paul thus appears to be using the "libertarian" label as a mask for his religious and authoritarian agenda: shrink the size of government so churches can step in and assume control.

To be fair, this isn't necessarily an easy issue for genuine libertarians who are also staunch secularists and supporters of church/state separation. If expanded government services and authority ensures reduced religious authority, thus ensuring the growth of secularism in society, then such libertarians are faced with a difficult dilemma. On the one hand, they would prefer to see government authority reduced; on the other, they don't want to see the authority, power, and influence of churches to fill all the vacuum left behind. Given how strong churches and religious organizations already are, it's difficult to imagine, though, that completely secular alternatives would compete very well.

 

Ron Paul Rated by Conservative Groups
Let's look at how various conservative and Christian Right groups have rated Ron Paul:

Family Research Council, 2005: 75%
John Birch Society, Summer '06, Spring '05, Fall '04, Summer '03: 100%
John Birch Society, Spring 2004: 88%
Concerned Women for America, 2005-2006: 62%
Eagle Forum, 2005: 71%
American Conservative Union, 2005: 76%
Christian Coalition, 2004: 76%
National Right to Life Committee, 2005-2006: 56% Then there are these ratings:

Secular Coalition for America, 2006: 20%
Planned Parenthood, 2006: 20%
American Civil Liberties Union, 2005-2006: 55%
NAACP, 2005: 52%
Human Rights Campaign, 2003-2004: 25% The ratings here for the ACLU and NAACP aren't too bad, but over all this does not paint a pretty picture. No one who can get 100% from the John Birch Society and 75% from the Family Research Council, but only 20% from the Secular Coalition for America, is a much of a friend of personal liberty.


For a "libertarian," Ron Paul is quite a moralist:

His family was pious and Lutheran; two of his brothers became ministers. Paul’s five children were baptized in the Episcopal church, but he now attends a Baptist one. He doesn’t travel alone with women and once dressed down an aide for using the expression “red-light district” in front of a female colleague.

Source: The New York Times   


Ron Paul Defending Christian Privilege

Ron Paul has consistently opposed separating church & state and supported government actions in defense of Christian privilege. For example, he condemned the 9th Circuit Court ruling that the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional:

The judges who made this unfortunate ruling simply do not understand the First amendment," Paul stated. "It does not bar religious expression in public settings or anywhere else. In fact, it expressly prohibits federal interference in the free expression of religion. Far from mandating strict secularism in schools, it instead bars the federal government from prohibiting the Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer, or any other religious expression. The politicians and judges pushing the removal of religion from public life are violating the First amendment, not upholding it."

"The tired assertion of a separation of church and state has no historical or constitutional basis," Paul continued. "Neither the language of the Constitution itself nor the legislative history reveals any mention of such separation. In fact, the authors of the First amendment- Fisher Ames and Elbridge Gerry- and the rest of the founders routinely referred to "Almighty God" in our founding documents. It is only in the last 50 years that the federal courts have perverted the meaning of the amendment and sought to unlawfully restrict religious expression. We cannot continue to permit our Constitution and our rich religious institutions to be degraded by profound misinterpretations of the Bill of Rights."


On June 12, 2002, Ron Paul promised to introduce legislation forbidding federal courts from taking cases where people allege their religious freedom was violated by government agencies. Why would a "libertarian" object to people suing the government for infringing on their rights? This became the First Amendment Restoration Act and Ron Paul insisted that federal courts should have no jurisdiction over protecting Americans' religious liberties.

In a perverse twist of logic and morality, Ron Paul argued that it would enhance religious freedom if the federal courts could no longer rule in defense of religious freedom. Moreover, he insisted that people's personal religious liberty would be enhanced by ensuring that government agencies would have the authority to promote, endorse, sponsor, and encourage particular religions, religious opinions, and religious beliefs. Ron Paul consistently advanced this position by voting to keep "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, by voting in support of government-sponsored Ten Commandments monuments, and co-sponsoring a constitutional amendment promoting school prayer.

Ron Paul supports a religious over a secular society on a number of other levels as well. He opposes Roe v. Wade and believes that it should be overturned. His preference would be for abortion to be criminalized and, contrary to most libertarians he doesn't not treat this as a states' rights matter. He would impose the ban at the federal level if necessary. Ron Paul also opposes states' rights when it comes to same-sex marriage: rather than let them work it out for themselves, he would use the power of the federal government to restrict gay marriage and prevent gay couples from being treated equally.

Ron Paul thus opposes protecting the liberty of women and the liberty of gays when they would use that liberty in a manner contrary to his personal religious beliefs. This is consistent with his support of using government funds and power to promote his religious beliefs over and above the religious beliefs of any other citizens. The libertarians supporting Ron Paul have either been duped into supporting an authoritarian, or are actually like Ron Paul in that they are really more authoritarian than they let on.


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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2007, 05:04:47 PM »
wow... TA... your article makes some very good points that I did not know.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2007, 05:07:55 PM »
wow... TA... your article makes some very good points that I did not know.
I've been trying to tell people... they just don't want to listen.

SirTraps

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2007, 05:10:26 PM »
so?

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2007, 05:13:30 PM »
wow... TA... your article makes some very good points that I did not know.
He also wants to totally get rid of NASA which is totally mindless.  Paul also wants to delete the Department of Education.  The Government has an OBLIGATION to keep the citizenry educated and well informed in a Secular fashion without religion polluting knowledge.  Dissolution of that element would potentially destroy any kind of technological progress and we would also see a total decline in Science and scientists in the United States.  Facts should never be replaced with fiction.  This would certainly happen if left to privatization of schooling.  We would then have no national standards and bias in education would run rampant.  Knowledge would go to only the people who can afford to pay. 

Paul is a disaster.  His message has been so propagandized by his followers, that the majority of the people have no clue the true nature of Paul and his deranged Christian utopian vision.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2007, 05:14:57 PM »
He also wants to totally get rid of NASA which is totally mindless.  Paul also wants to delete the Department of Education.  The Government has an OBLIGATION to keep the citizenry educated and well informed in a Secular fashion without religion polluting knowledge.  Dissolution of that element would potentially destroy any kind of technological progress and we would also see a total decline in Science and scientists in the United States.  Facts should never be replaced with fiction.  This would certainly happen if left to privatization of schooling with no national and unbiased standards.

Paul is a disaster.  His message has been so propagandized by his followers, that the majority of the people have no clue the true nature of Paul and his deranged Christian utopian vision.

Adonis brings it.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2007, 05:16:08 PM »
He also wants to totally get rid of NASA which is totally mindless.  Paul also wants to delete the Department of Education.  The Government has an OBLIGATION to keep the citizenry educated and well informed in a Secular fashion without religion polluting knowledge.  Dissolution of that element would potentially destroy any kind of technological progress and we would also see a total decline in Science and scientists in the United States.  Facts should never be replaced with fiction.  This would certainly happen if left to privatization of schooling with no national and unbiased standards.

Paul is a disaster.  His message has been so propagandized by his followers, that the majority of the people have no clue the true nature of Paul and his deranged Christian utopian vision.
ITS AGAINST THE 10TH AMENDMENT!!! I love when that little pencil neck turd says "We dont neeeeeeeeed ________ ". According to Ron Paul we don't need anything but 50 independent nations competing amongst each other. I love it... He won't recover...

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2007, 05:16:51 PM »
RonPaul for president!!!!!! 

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 05:17:16 PM »

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 05:19:27 PM »
If you are militantly anti-christian and pro-gay, i can see where you wouldnt be a Ron Paul supporter.  ::) 

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 05:21:33 PM »
If you are militantly anti-christian and pro-gay, i can see where you wouldnt be a Ron Paul supporter.  ::) 
WHat? You guys are just as bad as the extremenist muslims yet you don't see it. You become what you hate sirtraps, you become what you hate.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 05:24:30 PM »
RonPaul for president!!!!!! 

Ron Paul isn`t too keen on Mexicans and Mexican immigration either.  He also fails to realize that arguably the most prolific architect of the United States Constitution as well as the creator of the entire Monetary and Commerce system that has been in place for over 200 years, all came from an illegal immigrant named Alexander Hamilton.  It must pain him that an illegal immigrant with such power appears on the 10 dollar bill.

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 05:25:45 PM »
you sound very intolerant, you hate christians and muslims i see.  ::)