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Author Topic: Mario Williams  (Read 804 times)
body88
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« on: December 13, 2007, 09:40:27 PM »

Looks like the texans made the right choice. 13 sacks on the season. 3.5 sacks tonight vs Denver.

Looks like Williams is on his way to a all pro career.
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 10:04:34 AM »

Looks like the texans made the right choice. 13 sacks on the season. 3.5 sacks tonight vs Denver.

Looks like Williams is on his way to a all pro career.





I really didn't know much about Williams but for the record I was never sold on Reggie Bush.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 12:08:43 PM »





I really didn't know much about Williams but for the record I was never sold on Reggie Bush.

yeah everybody claims that now

I remember everybody saying he was going to be michael jordan playing football Roll Eyes

E
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 01:13:50 PM »

yeah everybody claims that now

I remember everybody saying he was going to be michael jordan playing football Roll Eyes

E





Hahaha...not me.I always thought of him as a Dave Megget type of player.he wasn't even the full time running back at USC.
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body88
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 01:53:20 PM »





Hahaha...not me.I always thought of him as a Dave Megget type of player.he wasn't even the full time running back at USC.

I agree. I think of Kevin Faulk is a Reggie Bush type player. Bush was a waste of a very high draft choice.
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 02:04:54 PM »

yeah everybody claims that now

I remember everybody saying he was going to be michael jordan playing football Roll Eyes

E

I lived in SoCal and never heard him talked about that way. 

It was generally agreed that his speed and quicks made him a great college player, but that his lack of size and durability would prevent him from having much impact as a featured back in the pros. 
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 06:40:40 PM »

I thought on draft day that the Texans made a mistake and still believe so.  Mario Williams was not the best player in the draft.  He was wildly inconsistent in college.  He has been inconsistent in the pros.  He has 13 sacks this year, but 8 came in 3 games.  The other 5 came in 11 games.  That pretty much mirrors his college production. 

Vince Young or Bush would have been a better pick.  Shortly after passing on Bush, the Texans lost Dom Davis.  About a year later, they cut ties with their franchise QB (Carr).  Taking the hometown hero (Young) would have been a much smarter move IMO.  I doubt Williams ever lives up to being the first overall pick, which is how he must be judged. 
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 11:00:21 PM »

I lived in SoCal and never heard him talked about that way. 

It was generally agreed that his speed and quicks made him a great college player, but that his lack of size and durability would prevent him from having much impact as a featured back in the pros. 

espn guys like sean salisbury and michael irvin said it and many said he was the best draft prospect in years

they said mario would be patrick ewing and bush would be jordan

for the texans to be completely trashed for not taking bush number one overall should tell you that most thought he would be a great pro

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body88
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 01:13:44 PM »

I thought on draft day that the Texans made a mistake and still believe so.  Mario Williams was not the best player in the draft.  He was wildly inconsistent in college.  He has been inconsistent in the pros.  He has 13 sacks this year, but 8 came in 3 games.  The other 5 came in 11 games.  That pretty much mirrors his college production. 

Vince Young or Bush would have been a better pick.  Shortly after passing on Bush, the Texans lost Dom Davis.  About a year later, they cut ties with their franchise QB (Carr).  Taking the hometown hero (Young) would have been a much smarter move IMO.  I doubt Williams ever lives up to being the first overall pick, which is how he must be judged. 


I do not agree. Reggie Bush has been a total bust. Bush is nothing more then a overhyped third down back who can catch the ball out of the backfield. He is a Kevin Faulk type player , just not as good. Hardly worth his draft position. Out of all the first round backs taken that year , Bush has the worst numbers. Avg shelf life for a NFL back is five years. Bush is not even a full time back. Williams imo was a far better choice then Bush. Williams will be playing long after Bush is washed up.

Many NFL players take a year to adjust and develop. Wr's can take up to three years. Williams started off injured. His first year the Texans had him playing NT most of the time. This year he has come out. Not only does he have thirteen sacks , he is extremely athletic , has great speed for his size and routinely beats double teams to disrupt the pocket. Basing a players production on sacks alone is only part of the story. Having watched Mario play this year he constantly wreeks havock in the pocket. Not only does Mario have 13 sacks he has 16 ast's, 53 total tackels and 2 ff's. I dont think you can find me a better de in the NFL right now. Williams is only in his second year. It takes three years to fully gauge a draft choice. All Mario has done is show vast improvement in his second year. His first year being marred with injury and extremley high expectations. Imo mario Williams will prove to be the best choice over his career.

Aside from rushing ability Vince Young is nothing special imo. Qb is the hardest position to scout. Everyone was sure Leaf was better then Manning etc etc. Good teams are built on the lines. The Texans took the "safe" talent route. Mario is Okeye are going to be a very very formidable tandem for years to come. The texans have improved vastly even with 11 players on ir.  Willaims is only 22 and in his second NFL year. His second year has been very very good.
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2007, 01:56:45 PM »

You guys need to chill on Bush. The guy's only 22 years old and only in his second year. Still got a long way to go before he's considered a bust.

I seem to recall him having a pretty productive rookie year. Especially during the second half of last season AND in the playoffs.

The absence of Mcallister and moving him to the feature back role his greatly dimished his impact on the field. He wasn't drafted to be a feature back and he never will be. He's too small to run between the tackles like the Saints have been using him. His strengths are getting the ball in space and catching the ball out of the backfield. Defenses are singling in on him because he's basically the only running attack the Saints have. If you use him primarily on screens and wheel routes, he's dangerous as hell and a threat to take it to the house.

I'd take him on the Ravens as a third down back/slot receiver any day of the week. But I will agree that he should have been drafted in the bottom 5 of the top ten. Too high as the #2 overall pick.
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 02:02:39 PM »

You guys need to chill on Bush. The guy's only 22 years old and only in his second year. Still got a long way to go before he's considered a bust.

I seem to recall him having a pretty productive rookie year. Especially during the second half of last season AND in the playoffs.

The absence of Mcallister and moving him to the feature back role his greatly dimished his impact on the field. He wasn't drafted to be a feature back and he never will be. He's too small to run between the tackles like the Saints have been using him. His strengths are getting the ball in space and catching the ball out of the backfield. Defenses are singling in on him because he's basically the only running attack the Saints have. If you use him primarily on screens and wheel routes, he's dangerous as hell and a threat to take it to the house.

I'd take him on the Ravens as a third down back/slot receiver any day of the week. But I will agree that he should have been drafted in the bottom 5 of the top ten. Too high as the #2 overall pick.

You would pay bush the amount of money he commands to be a slot reciever and third down back? The type of cap hit he has to do so little would be counter productive imo.

As for production Addai, Maroney and Jones Drew all  had better production then Bush in there first year. Taken 21, 31 and 68th . Bush has a 3.7 ypc avg this year. Jones Drew(5.3) , Addai (4.2) and Maroney  (4.1) all have over a 4 ypc avg. Kenton Keith for the colts has a 4.3 ypc avg and he is some jag they picked up off the scrap heap. I dont think the beef with Bush is his skills. I think the beef with Bush is that he does not do anything guys taken much lower in the draft do week in and week out. You could get what Bush brings to a team for a fraction of the cost. So far anyway.

Bush is a good player no doubt. I just dont think the money he gets is worth what he does for a team. Just my opinion.
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 03:07:49 PM »

I hear what you're saying. Bush wouldn't command that type of money had he been drafted in the right position(bottom five/top ten) in the first place. But hindsight is 20/20 and there aern't many teams that can say that they wouldn't have drafted Bush at #2 on that day if they were position to do so. Of course, most teams would have drafted him lower if they could turn back the clock.

I'm just saying that I think it's too early to tell whether Bush is a bust. He's got a long future ahead of him so let's just wait and see.
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 03:20:22 PM »

I hear what you're saying. Bush wouldn't command that type of money had he been drafted in the right position(bottom five/top ten) in the first place. But hindsight is 20/20 and there aern't many teams that can say that they wouldn't have drafted Bush at #2 on that day if they were position to do so. Of course, most teams would have drafted him lower if they could turn back the clock.

I'm just saying that I think it's too early to tell whether Bush is a bust. He's got a long future ahead of him so let's just wait and see.

Good point. To be fair it has only been two years. As you are aware a draft cannot be assessed accurately until about three years in. Next year should tell us a lot more about Reggie.

Bust was to strong word for me to use.
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 06:07:53 PM »

I do not agree. Reggie Bush has been a total bust. Bush is nothing more then a overhyped third down back who can catch the ball out of the backfield. He is a Kevin Faulk type player , just not as good. Hardly worth his draft position. Out of all the first round backs taken that year , Bush has the worst numbers. Avg shelf life for a NFL back is five years. Bush is not even a full time back. Williams imo was a far better choice then Bush. Williams will be playing long after Bush is washed up.

Many NFL players take a year to adjust and develop. Wr's can take up to three years. Williams started off injured. His first year the Texans had him playing NT most of the time. This year he has come out. Not only does he have thirteen sacks , he is extremely athletic , has great speed for his size and routinely beats double teams to disrupt the pocket. Basing a players production on sacks alone is only part of the story. Having watched Mario play this year he constantly wreeks havock in the pocket. Not only does Mario have 13 sacks he has 16 ast's, 53 total tackels and 2 ff's. I dont think you can find me a better de in the NFL right now. Williams is only in his second year. It takes three years to fully gauge a draft choice. All Mario has done is show vast improvement in his second year. His first year being marred with injury and extremley high expectations. Imo mario Williams will prove to be the best choice over his career.

Aside from rushing ability Vince Young is nothing special imo. Qb is the hardest position to scout. Everyone was sure Leaf was better then Manning etc etc. Good teams are built on the lines. The Texans took the "safe" talent route. Mario is Okeye are going to be a very very formidable tandem for years to come. The texans have improved vastly even with 11 players on ir.  Willaims is only 22 and in his second NFL year. His second year has been very very good.

Bush was hands down the best player in college football.  He is, as scouts described him coming into the draft, a "one cut and gone" player.  Mario Williams, on the other hand, was not the best player in college football.  I'm not even sure he was the best DE in college football coming into the draft.  He shot up draft boards based on measureables (height, weight, 40 time, etc.), not because of his production on the field.  He disappeared for weeks at a time in college.  He wound up with a lot of sacks, but they came in relatively few games.  That is precisely what he has done in the NFL.   There were a number of GMs who were concerend about the fact that he took games off in college.  And keep in mind that he played alongside two first round picks his last year. 

Bush is a great talent.  Not sure Jones-Drew is a good comparison, because he has more yards from scrimmage than him the past two years, although Jones-Drew has more TDs.  Bush has more yards and TDs than Maroney.  And Kevin Faulk?  C'mon.  Not sure how you can compare him with those three. 

Vince Young was the best QB in college football his last year.  He was rookie of the year last year and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie.  You might not consider that anything special, but I do.  What makes that so impressive is, along with Atlanta, he might have the worst set of skill position players in the NFL.  For him to play as well as he did last year with that supporting cast was very impressive.  This year's group is even worse.   

I also disagree with those who say Bush isn't big enough to be a full-time back.  He's bigger than Warrick Dunn.  He's probably bigger than Westbrook.  They just need to give him the ball.  When they do give him the ball, he's very good. 

Some of the best RBs in NFL history have not been very big at all:  Barry, Walter, Emmitt, etc.  At 6' 200 he is plenty big enough to be an every down RB. 

Too early to completely judge any of those guys anyway. 
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2007, 08:10:39 PM »

Bush was the best player in college football , and it has not translated to the pro's. Scouts saw that. Bush is not even close to as big of a threat as he was in the college game.


Maroney Jones Drew and Addai can all be compared to Bush. That is my point. A back taken as high as Bush should be special. All the guys I just named have a better ypc avg then Bush, including Faulk. YPC says it all. Different systems different attempts, its the ypc that matters.

 Bush has four td's. I mean saying he has one or two td's more then someone else is kinda moot. A back taken as high as Bush should have a lot more td's then 4 in his second year.


The fact Bush is comparable to players taken much lower in the draft is my point. He is not worth the money ha makes thus far.

Just my opinion of course Wink
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 09:05:07 PM »

Bush was the best player in college football , and it has not translated to the pro's. Scouts saw that. Bush is not even close to as big of a threat as he was in the college game.


Maroney Jones Drew and Addai can all be compared to Bush. That is my point. A back taken as high as Bush should be special. All the guys I just named have a better ypc avg then Bush, including Faulk. YPC says it all. Different systems different attempts, its the ypc that matters.

 Bush has four td's. I mean saying he has one or two td's more then someone else is kinda moot. A back taken as high as Bush should have a lot more td's then 4 in his second year.


The fact Bush is comparable to players taken much lower in the draft is my point. He is not worth the money ha makes thus far.

Just my opinion of course Wink

Maroney averages a half yard more per carry than Bush.  Not a big difference at all.  But there is a big difference in production.  Bush has 2305 yards from scrimmage and 14 TDs, while Maroney has 1584 yards and 9 TDs.  This doesn't include return yardage. 

I think if they featured Bush like Indy does Addai or used him like Philly uses Westbrook he would be even better. 

The fact that some players taken later in the draft outperform Bush doesn't mean Bush shouldn't have been drafted high or that the Texans should have passed on him.  That happens in every draft.

But we're both just arm-chair QBs.   Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 10:11:16 PM »

Maroney averages a half yard more per carry than Bush.  Not a big difference at all.  But there is a big difference in production.  Bush has 2305 yards from scrimmage and 14 TDs, while Maroney has 1584 yards and 9 TDs.  This doesn't include return yardage. 

I think if they featured Bush like Indy does Addai or used him like Philly uses Westbrook he would be even better. 

The fact that some players taken later in the draft outperform Bush doesn't mean Bush shouldn't have been drafted high or that the Texans should have passed on him.  That happens in every draft.

But we're both just arm-chair QBs.   Smiley


My point is Bush has comparable and or lesser stats then backs taken far lower in the draft then him. Addai and Jones Drew are both far better backs. Maroney has only rushed 126 times this year to Bush's 157 times. Health Evens is also used on goal line situations. In his first year Maroney had better production then Bush , and also more yards. That is also taking into account Corey Dillon was splitting time with Maroney and also used exclusively in goal line situations. taking away a lot of Maronet td's. Maroney has been hurt this year also.



Petterson is a back worthy of his draft position. 198 attempts , 6.1 yards a carry, 1200 yards. With no passing game when he started. The saints have a explosive O. The Vikes don't. Petterson is living up to his draft position , imo Bush is not.


Also a half a yard or a full yard is something when you are talking about running bacls. A half a yard to a yard is what seperates the jags from the "good" backs.
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2007, 10:46:22 PM »


My point is Bush has comparable and or lesser stats then backs taken far lower in the draft then him. Addai and Jones Drew are both far better backs. Maroney has only rushed 126 times this year to Bush's 157 times. Health Evens is also used on goal line situations. In his first year Maroney had better production then Bush , and also more yards. That is also taking into account Corey Dillon was splitting time with Maroney and also used exclusively in goal line situations. taking away a lot of Maronet td's. Maroney has been hurt this year also.



Petterson is a back worthy of his draft position. 198 attempts , 6.1 yards a carry, 1200 yards. With no passing game when he started. The saints have a explosive O. The Vikes don't. Petterson is living up to his draft position , imo Bush is not.


Also a half a yard or a full yard is something when you are talking about running bacls. A half a yard to a yard is what seperates the jags from the "good" backs.

You can make that point about a ton of players taken in the draft.  Every year players drafted later produce better than players drafted earlier.

I thought the point was that Mario Williams was the best player in the draft and worth the no. 1 overall pick? 

I don't know if Addai and Jones-Drew are far better backs than Bush (sounds like an overstatement), because Bush hasn't been a featured back for an entire season.  I think if Bush was in Indy as the featured back he would perform as well or better than Addai.   

Bush was in RBBC with Deuce last year and the first couple games this year.  Deuce was the red zone back last year too. 

How do you conclude Maroney outperformed Bush in 06?  Bush had 1309 rushing/receiving and 8 TDs.  Maroney had 939 and 7 TDs. 

Adrian Peterson is a stud.  No argument there.

I don't agree that a half yard in ypc is all that significant.  There really isn't much difference at all between 3.7 and 4.2.  Neither one of those averages is great.  If we were talking 4.5 and 5, then that would be a different story.   
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2007, 10:11:15 AM »

You are adding Bush's rushing and receiving yards together. I am talking about rushing the ball. Again Bush had a pedestrian ypc average , while rushing for 545 yds and 6 td's. Maroney had a 4.3 ypc avg with 745 yards rushing and six td's. Jones drew rushed for 945 yards with a 5.3 avg with 13 td's. Addai rushed for 1081 yards with a 4.8 avg and 7 td's. I look at the ypc because these teams all ru different systems. The pats had a three back system that year. Maroney to spell Dillon (pounder) and faulk on third down and to catch the ball out of the backfield. Bush was in one of the NFL's most explosive Offenses last year. He was sub par at best. He should excel in a situation like that.

This is the second year that Bush has not lived up to expectations. Rb is the easiest position to translate skills over the NFL. The easiest to scout also. Reggie's game speed is not the same in the pros as in college. The game sped up for him , where as it slowed down for petterson. Petterson is a back worth his draft position. IMO Bush has been avg at best. He was taken so high because he was supposed to be special , and that has not happened imo.


As for a ypc avg , calling a 4.2 avg not great is a real stretch imo. Eric Dickersons career ypc was 4.4 yards. You said the difference between 3.7 and 4.2 yards is not much , yet the diff between 4.2 and 4.5 is very significant? Anything over 4.0 yards is very good for a NFL back. Bush has been a dissapointment thus far imo.
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