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Author Topic: Clemens was a juicer BIG SURPRISE!  (Read 1186 times)
Camel Jockey
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« on: December 13, 2007, 06:52:15 PM »

Not really..

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7560368?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10734

the important bit:

Quote
It was Clemens, according to the report, who willingly offered his big butt as a pin-cushion for injectable steroids. Don't take my word for it. Refer to the report itself on FOXSports.com, pages 167 to 175. The procurement protocol should be pretty clear by now. The player typically secures the services of a musclehead-gofer.

Much of the information in this report comes from the guy who filled this role for many of the Mets, Kirk Radomski. Before telling all to Mitchell, Radomski rolled over for the feds. That led prosecutors to one Brian McNamee, a former New York City cop, who was employed as a strength and conditioning coach by both the Blue Jays and the Yankees. McNamee says he injected Clemens whose dedicated workout regimens were the subject of endless praise on numerous occasions with both Winstrol and human growth hormone. In doing so, he tampered not just with Clemens' physique, but with baseball history.

Roger Clemens who refused to address the allegations with Mitchell's investigators trails only Nolan Ryan in career strikeouts. He's eighth in all-time victories, and first among active players with 354.
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 06:55:12 PM »

Right now their "proof" wouldn't stand up in court.  All of the "evidence" is circumstantial at best so unless the HOF voters want to ban some of the best players ever from the HOF then they will ignore this until there is real proof.  We all know Bonds is guilty but I doubt many of the rest. 

Let the league try and prove that personal checks were for drugs.  It's not like a check with say Memo: 30cc Deca and 200 IU HGH   Signed: Andy Pettite
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Squishy face retard
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 06:17:49 PM »

Right now their "proof" wouldn't stand up in court.  All of the "evidence" is circumstantial at best so unless the HOF voters want to ban some of the best players ever from the HOF then they will ignore this until there is real proof.  We all know Bonds is guilty but I doubt many of the rest. 

Let the league try and prove that personal checks were for drugs.  It's not like a check with say Memo: 30cc Deca and 200 IU HGH   Signed: Andy Pettite

Roger has been threatening to sue as of late. Which is a total bluff on his part. If Clemens was to sue , the defense would have the right to sopena all the medical, telephone and financial records of Roger and anyone linked to the direct investigation. Something in which the Mitchell report could not do. The report is based largely on witness accounts. Since the Mitchel and co could not force people to cooperate , suing would only allow him to get his hand on the info that would really screw people. If Roger did sue, he would just be opening himself and many others to a massive investigation where the defense could sopena the shit out of him/them.

There is no way Roger sues , it would sink him even worse. I mean honestly , does anyone here think that Roger did not use? Look at his numbers from his career. Pretty big spike after a few terrbile season's in his final years with Boston.

That said , there is no way this list names everyone. They went with the players they could nail. Sadly for yankees fans that was a lot of Yankees. 10 players from the 2000 world series team I believe , and two current stars.
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 06:42:54 PM »

Roger has been threatening to sue as of late. Which is a total bluff on his part. If Clemens was to sue , the defense would have the right to sopena all the medical, telephone and financial records of Roger and anyone linked to the direct investigation. Something in which the Mitchell report could not do. The report is based largely on witness accounts. Since the Mitchel and co could not force people to cooperate , suing would only allow him to get his hand on the info that would really screw people. If Roger did sue, he would just be opening himself and many others to a massive investigation where the defense could sopena the shit out of him/them.

There is no way Roger sues , it would sink him even worse. I mean honestly , does anyone here think that Roger did not use? Look at his numbers from his career. Pretty big spike after a few terrbile season's in his final years with Boston.

That said , there is no way this list names everyone. They went with the players they could nail. Sadly for yankees fans that was a lot of Yankees. 10 players from the 2000 world series team I believe , and two current stars.
All I'm saying is that witness accounts by guys going to jail does not bode well for evidence.  Eye witness accounts are highly unreliable and in this case that seems to be the only evidence that people are looking at.  Checks to personal trainers prove nothing and to say that a guy injected Clemens four times with Winny is funny.  Shit, most guys take that many injections in two weeks.  So you mean to tell me that Clemens hated needles and couldn't inject himself but his personal injector only shot him 4 times?  Same thing with the guys claiming HGH with a handful of injections that would have, in reality, taken place many times over 6-8 months.  It just doesn't add up. 

This is like McGwire being named by Canseco, which is funny since they tried to pin something on Mac in this investigation and nobody but Jose mentioned his name.  I know there are many top guys juicing but this is not proof in my mind.  Everything here is heresay and circumstantial in a court of law.
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Squishy face retard
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 06:44:08 PM »

Roger has been threatening to sue as of late. Which is a total bluff on his part. If Clemens was to sue , the defense would have the right to sopena all the medical, telephone and financial records of Roger and anyone linked to the direct investigation. Something in which the Mitchell report could not do. The report is based largely on witness accounts. Since the Mitchel and co could not force people to cooperate , suing would only allow him to get his hand on the info that would really screw people. If Roger did sue, he would just be opening himself and many others to a massive investigation where the defense could sopena the shit out of him/them.

There is no way Roger sues , it would sink him even worse. I mean honestly , does anyone here think that Roger did not use? Look at his numbers from his career. Pretty big spike after a few terrbile season's in his final years with Boston.

That said , there is no way this list names everyone. They went with the players they could nail. Sadly for yankees fans that was a lot of Yankees. 10 players from the 2000 world series team I believe , and two current stars.

I haven't looked at the list in depth.  Who are the 10 from the 2000 team?  I know the Pettitte stuff wasn't until 2002.  Justice, Knoblauch, Stanton - anyone else material?  Velarde maybe?

Anyway, you're right, every team has their offenders, it's just that  they used a New York dealer for 68% of their names.  I'm actually somewhat surprised I didn't see names like Tino Martinez or maybe even Posada.

I'm also not surprised that the whole Paxton Crawford incident wasn't followed.  This whole think is a sham.  I'm not really a fan of Jayson Stark, but he pretty much nailed it in his ESPN column.
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 07:14:38 PM »

Current or former major league players linked to possession, use or reception of performance-enhancing drugs in George Mitchell's report on steroid use in baseball:

Manny Alexander    Chad Allen    Rick Ankiel    Marvin Benard    David Bell    Mike Bell    Gary Bennett Jr.

Larry Bigbie    Barry Bonds    Ricky Bones    Kevin Brown    Paul Byrd    Alex Cabrera    Ken Caminiti

Jose Canseco    Mark Carreon    Jason Christiansen    Howie Clark    Roger Clemens    Paxton Crawford

Jack Cust    Chris Donnels    Brendan Donnelly    Lenny Dykstra    Bobby Estalella    Matt Franco

Eric Gagne    Jason Giambi    Jeremy Giambi    Jay Gibbons    Troy Glaus    Juan Gonzalez               

Jason Grimsley     Jose Guillen    Jerry Hairston Jr.    Matt Herges    Phil Hiatt    Glenallen Hill

Darren Holmes    Todd Hundley    Ryan Jorgensen    Wally Joyner    Mike Judd    David Justice

Chuck Knoblauch    Tim Laker    Paul Lo Duca    Nook Logan    Josias Manzanillo    Gary Matthews Jr.

Mark McGwire    Cody McKay    Kent Mercker    Bart Miadich    Hal Morris    Daniel Naulty    Denny Neagle

Rafael Palmeiro    Jim Parque    Andy Pettitte    Adam Piatt    Todd Pratt    Stephen Randolph

Adam Riggs    Armando Rios   Brian Roberts    John Rocker    F.P. Santangelo    Benito Santiago

Scott Schoeneweis    David Segui    Gary Sheffield    Mike Stanton    Ricky Stone    Miguel Tejada

Derrick Turnbow    Ismael Valdez    Mo Vaughn    Randy Velarde    Ron Villone    Fernando Vina

Rondell White    Jeff Williams    Matt Williams    Todd Williams    Steve Woodard    Kevin Young

Gregg Zaun
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body88
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 07:46:48 PM »

All I'm saying is that witness accounts by guys going to jail does not bode well for evidence.  Eye witness accounts are highly unreliable and in this case that seems to be the only evidence that people are looking at.  Checks to personal trainers prove nothing and to say that a guy injected Clemens four times with Winny is funny.  Shit, most guys take that many injections in two weeks.  So you mean to tell me that Clemens hated needles and couldn't inject himself but his personal injector only shot him 4 times?  Same thing with the guys claiming HGH with a handful of injections that would have, in reality, taken place many times over 6-8 months.  It just doesn't add up. 

This is like McGwire being named by Canseco, which is funny since they tried to pin something on Mac in this investigation and nobody but Jose mentioned his name.  I know there are many top guys juicing but this is not proof in my mind.  Everything here is heresay and circumstantial in a court of law.
I know what you are saying. You have a great point. Very weird there are guys who should be on that list missing. The MLB should have kept this whole thing in house and dealt with it that way.
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 07:48:30 PM »

I haven't looked at the list in depth.  Who are the 10 from the 2000 team?  I know the Pettitte stuff wasn't until 2002.  Justice, Knoblauch, Stanton - anyone else material?  Velarde maybe?

Anyway, you're right, every team has their offenders, it's just that  they used a New York dealer for 68% of their names.  I'm actually somewhat surprised I didn't see names like Tino Martinez or maybe even Posada.

I'm also not surprised that the whole Paxton Crawford incident wasn't followed.  This whole think is a sham.  I'm not really a fan of Jayson Stark, but he pretty much nailed it in his ESPN column.

I agree with you. I dont blame the yankees for anything. Every single team has players or former players involved. I find it VERY weird there are so many people missing from that list. Do you know what I mean?
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 07:59:04 PM »

I agree with you. I dont blame the yankees for anything. Every single team has players or former players involved. I find it VERY weird there are so many people missing from that list. Do you know what I mean?


Yes, and I agree completely. 
No Sosa, McGwire, etc......  That's what makes this whole thing stink.  Everyone here know what guys who use drugs look like (and it appears that you guys, like me, really don't care). So when you see obivious users like Pudge, Luiz Gonzalez, Benito Santiago, etc. not on the list, you know it's a joke.  Heck, there's probably more Yankees that didn't get listed.

The investigation was done so that MLB could say they did SOMETHING, and try to gain favor with the fans and Congress.  It makes no sense to dreg up all these names, then do nothing about it.  It's just a show.

There's a new NYT aritcle that says one player met with Mitchel and got his name removed, becuase the Senator, after talking to him, believed he didn't use the drugs he bought.  So he believes this guy who he proved bought them didn't use them, but posts evidence against others that won't hold up in court.  Complete crap.

Here's the article:   http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?ref=sports
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 08:19:36 PM »

Yes, and I agree completely. 
No Sosa, McGwire, etc......  That's what makes this whole thing stink.  Everyone here know what guys who use drugs look like (and it appears that you guys, like me, really don't care). So when you see obivious users like Pudge, Luiz Gonzalez, Benito Santiago, etc. not on the list, you know it's a joke.  Heck, there's probably more Yankees that didn't get listed.

The investigation was done so that MLB could say they did SOMETHING, and try to gain favor with the fans and Congress.  It makes no sense to dreg up all these names, then do nothing about it.  It's just a show.

There's a new NYT aritcle that says one player met with Mitchel and got his name removed, becuase the Senator, after talking to him, believed he didn't use the drugs he bought.  So he believes this guy who he proved bought them didn't use them, but posts evidence against others that won't hold up in court.  Complete crap.


.

Here's the article:   http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?ref=sports



I know right. No Nomar? I mean come on. This list in it's current state was a waste of time.
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Geo
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 06:51:04 PM »

roger should have found a podium somewhere and confronted this face to face with the media,the guy just looks guilty as shit going through his lawyer about this.
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body88
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 07:58:42 PM »

Pettite admitted to hgh use today. At least he was honest.
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2007, 03:13:47 AM »

Pettite admitted to hgh use today. At least he was honest.

yea but why would he admit honestly..your talkin about his career here and theyve got nothing but heresay....shame on bud selig and the MLB board for letting this go down so bush league...fuckin gerks.
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 10:59:14 AM »

Where's Nolan Ryan and Rickey Henderson as well?
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