MATT C CONSIDERS THE 911 HIJACKERS "WAR HEROS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JBGRAY]

I can somewhat sympthasize and understand those who have the POV that it is in the US's best interest to be in the Middle East building bases on the basis of obtaining oil whether it be by legal or illegal means.  Everything in our society and economy runs on petroleum: gasoline, diesel fuel, lubricants for motors and machinery, petroleum (or paraffin) wax for products such as candy, candles, matches, and petroleum jelly, paraffin mixed in with medical products, petroleum coke(used for carbon and graphite products), asphalt for road paving, chemical manufactory, and a lot more.  It certainly would be in our greater interest to ensure we have an affordable and abundant supply in order to maintain our way of life, and ultimately, ensuring we remain the strongest nation on earth.

But what happened to faith in good ole' American ingenuity?  Do some of you that heavily advocate the above doubt that the US is able to cleanly and efficiently produce an alternative method of energy?  Can something other than petroleum power our vehicles?  military?  shipping?  products?  We've seen the water-powered car.  We've seen efficient nuclear energy.  We've seen the potential for magnetism and travel.  Check this baby out! The Toshiba 4S Nuclear Battery(basically, a small nuclear power plant).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_4S
I'm not advocating this particular product, but in view of the ever-rising costs of energy, the Free Market is doing what it is designed to do and making more affordable, reliable, and cleaner alternatives to petroleum.

How far would some of you go to ensure petroleum continues to pump our way?  How about the ailments suffered by many of the people in Ecuador due to Chevron's alleged contamination?  What about a full-scaled military assault on Iran(the fact that this is also greatly influenced by the powerful Israel lobby in Washington does not help the matter)?

Give me a viable solution here.

[240 is Back]

You are such a twit.
The government may be in a fight to control oil, but not the individuals on the ground. They don't own the oil companies, they are fighting for much more. They are the ones fighting for honor and hope and freedom.

They all fight for their own reasons.

Some do it for college $.  Some do it to have a place to live.  Some do it because they hate arabs.  Some do it for a stronger america. 

And yes, some do it for "honor and hope and freedom".

IMO, only a 'twit' would believe that he knows the sole reason why they fight. 

[CARTEL]

They all fight for their own reasons.

Some do it for college $.  Some do it to have a place to live.  Some do it because they hate arabs.  Some do it for a stronger america. 

And yes, some do it for "honor and hope and freedom".

IMO, only a 'twit' would believe that he knows the sole reason why they fight. 

Gosh, I guess I was being too general.

I guess we are both twits.

They'll lose to the Giants so how's that going to take place?

That may be the case. I'm not looking forward to that game at all.

[headhuntersix]

Honestly, if I were president...i would see what are alternates are and supposing that we have a viable one..it would be mandated as soon as possible. then i'd announce it to the world.  The arabs can go back to fighting over dirt. i'm not sure how they will feed themselves but have at it.

[CARTEL]

The future is Nuclear and Hydrogen.

[OzmO]

Tell you what.. Ask yourself this question: Are there now more terrorists than before?

Are there?

Do you have stats?

Are you privy all the cells and numbers?

Is OBL on your myspace friends list and does he tell you? 

Is AQ stronger or weaker?

Their money frozen? Why has heroin production shot up after the invasion? Aren't they using proceeds from opium harvests to combat US forces and train more terrorists?

Are they?  I think we are responsible for increased heroin production, not them.  i think that's how we got the Warlords of the region's support.  AQ had free roam in Afghanistan, but not now.   

The US' actions have urked those stupid, worthless bearded morons.. Now they've got a cause stronger than ever and they're not affraid of dying for it. Of course that's not bad for this country as it's en excuse to fuck around in that area even more so.

Nothing is different in that sense, they hated us before and hate us now.

I payed like 3.30 a gallon to fill up my brothers car.. If it would have been 4 bucks, then I guess a few thousands civilian deaths, civil war, an isurgency, people having their lives torn apart means jackshit. 
 

My point is about them, not us.  Aside from that mis cue on your part, Gas was destined to go up anyway at some point and i believe it's only been the excuse oil companies have it go up as much as it has.

And western opinion means jackshit. Many in the west despise their government(expecially the younger generation) because of this war for oil.

All opinion means jack shit, until the representatives cannot ignore the voice of the people or are removed.  (nam) except in dictatorships

[240 is Back]

oz, the terrorist numbers have risen almost 500% by our estimates.

there were 15k insurgents in 2003, and there are something like 70k today.
There was a thread on here about a month ago - berserker posted the stats from the us govt.
anyone have the link? 

yes, insurgents have gone up signifiantly, as they are drawn from all over the region to fight.  Is this so we can fight them there and not here? (when 99.999% of them will never own a passport)?  I dunno.

[tu_holmes]

Then shut your trap, fool.

The only person who looks like a fool in this conversation is you...

[OzmO]

oz, the terrorist numbers have risen almost 500% by our estimates.

there were 15k insurgents in 2003, and there are something like 70k today.
There was a thread on here about a month ago - berserker posted the stats from the us govt.
anyone have the link? 

yes, insurgents have gone up signifiantly, as they are drawn from all over the region to fight.  Is this so we can fight them there and not here? (when 99.999% of them will never own a passport)?  I dunno.

Is that as a result of 9/11 or the iraq war?

Mt point is that the Iraq war increased terrorism.  Not 9/11.  Had we kept out eye on the target we might have just severly damged AQ in those mountians, and maybe even got OBL.  But we pulled out to invade Iraq.

[The Master]

Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. 

Dear judge Alex 23

He never called them heroes from a personal standpoint. He just confirmed the fact that the defenition of a "hero" opens for calling the 911 terrorists "heroes" if one believes the ideal they fought for were worth it. His post is of a technical nature, and the point it contains is real. The 2 sub parts of a "hero" = acting from a ideal worth fighting for, and certain personal characteristics like willingness to die for this ideal via uberman courage.

Thus, from a terrorist point of view (meaning: unintelligent monkeys), these people were heroes, because the terrorists themselves embrace the ideal.

For us from the west (us with rational brainpower), these people = the scum of the earth.

Thank you judge. Lawyer debussey now steps down.

[Camel Jockey]

The only person who looks like a fool in this conversation is you...

No, you.

MattC was pointing out the obvious, and if that's offensive to you then tough luck. It's sickening to me that some people can't stomach their own values, yet are critical of others.  MattC is exercising his right to free speech. He has been called so many things by people who can't debate the issue. You tried atleast and didn't resort to petty insults(unlike Captian American himself Alex23, and many of his cronies).

People should be allowed to speak their minds. And no, I don't give a fuck if you were emotionally touched after seeing some guy with his leg torn off in Walter Ried hospital.

Plus you've had two US servicemen openly admit that the war = about oil.. hahaha Nail in the coffin.

I respect Headhunter ALOT. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to defend him if someone called him out on his career. Harsh, but I don't think he gives a shit.

The people who're like "OMG YOU QUESTION THE US' ACTIONS YOU'RE A TERRORIST!" piss me off. They're so emotionally driven that they fail to see the issue for what it is.

[Camel Jockey]

Is that as a result of 9/11 or the iraq war?

Mt point is that the Iraq war increased terrorism.  Not 9/11.  Had we kept out eye on the target we might have just severly damged AQ in those mountians, and maybe even got OBL.  But we pulled out to invade Iraq.

That was my point too.. 

OBL means jackshit.. Kill him and there will be like 1000 other nutters to take his place. The seed has been set and the US' best bet would to get the fuck out of Iraq after setting up a puppet regime that'd still be able to milk that vital black gold.

This terrorism thing has grown so much that there might not be a solution..  Couple some straightforward faith with lack of education and you have a chaos.

[tu_holmes]

No, you.

MattC was pointing out the obvious, and if that's offensive to you then tough luck. It's sickening to me that some people can't stomach their own values, yet are critical of others.  MattC is exercising his right to free speech. He has been called so many things by people who can't debate the issue. You tried atleast and didn't resort to petty insults(unlike Captian American himself Alex23, and many of his cronies).

People should be allowed to speak their minds. And no, I don't give a fuck if you were emotionally touched after seeing some guy with his leg torn off in Walter Ried hospital.

Plus you've had two US servicemen openly admit that the war = about oil.. hahaha Nail in the coffin.

I respect Headhunter ALOT. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to defend him if someone called him out on his career. Harsh, but I don't think he gives a shit.

The people who're like "OMG YOU QUESTION THE US' ACTIONS YOU'RE A TERRORIST!" piss me off. They're so emotionally driven that they fail to see the issue for what it is.

See here's where you look foolish... How many times do I have to explain to you that this conversation is not about whether or not the War is right or wrong.

I know it's wrong... I hate it.

The conversation is about disrespecting a Soldier... Any Soldier.

Giving a soldier respect and caring about their welfare and lives has NOTHING to do with whether or not the war is right or wrong.

Serious question.

Are you simply unable to understand that fact?

[Camel Jockey]

Giving a soldier respect and caring about their welfare and lives has NOTHING to do with whether or not the war is right or wrong.

Serious question.

Are you simply unable to understand that fact?

Of course I care about them, and I bet MattC does as well.

But man, it's not as though bringing up the war slaps them in the face.. It's quite harmless. If they feel disrespected, then they have my apology, but I still support MattC's views.

[headhuntersix]

I don't care...but my defense of what I do would come off as ridiculously arrogant..best left unsaid. Holmes hasa good point. My worry is that after we leave Iraq, our militray will need a major overhaul...the cash has to be there....America has no choice. There will be more 911's. As far as figting em there as opposed to here. There is a finite amount of folks that can do a 911...use nukes/bio/gas..plan/equip/move and carry out complex operations. Many are involved in Iraq and we are killing them. Yes there are more insurgents..but the average asshole with an AK cannot shave his beard..learn english and blow up a shopping mall. AQ is fully invested in Iraq and loosing...They are otherwise occupied and cannot plan ops here and there. Its not a question of money its a question of men and they don't have the folks.

[tu_holmes]

Of course I care about them, and I bet MattC does as well.

But man, it's not as though bringing up the war slaps them in the face.. It's quite harmless. If they feel disrespected, then they have my apology, but I still support MattC's views.

No one has an issue with them bring up the war... Did you see what MattC wrote?

They lost their lives standing up for a cause which they believed was true and genuine.  One which they sincerely thought would make the world a better place.  Does that make them heroes?  Or is it better to look beyond that and look at the facts...

My point is that the above quote shows that he's not separating the troops from the war... There is a difference between the two... Disagree if you want, but I do believe this is a slap in the face to the troops themselves...

I know the war is wrong... you know it's wrong, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to say anything  negative about the troops when discussing the subject of "the war".

[Camel Jockey]

damn guys i've had my usual nightcap of absolut and diet coke..

Maybe we can resume insulting each other tommorow? No sunday though as I'll be geared for the giants and cowboys. Speaking of which, is it actually on sunday? What time? Too lazy to check.

I hope Jessica Simpson flashes her panties for the troops and Romo, who'll be distracted and throw a few ints..

Cheers!

[CARTEL]

Can someone name a war that is right?

People keep saying this war is wrong. But what is a right war?

[headhuntersix]

It might not be right but war is the natural state of man...its what we're really good at and I don't see it stopping any time soon.

[dr.chimps]

Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. 

Hmmm. I think Matt is a bit more thoughtful than that smear. But what is up with you and the knee-jerk jingoism, lately. You're no idiot. Why are you playing the the O'Reilly neo-conservative super patriot, lately? Scared to be smeared yourself, so you are attacking first? Rings hollow coming from you. 

Here's a suitable quote for you: 

[headhuntersix]

Yeah but they had great uniforms....

[24KT]

Yes, exactly.  I think the 9.11 terrorists (if the official story is true) are disgusting murderers.  I couldn't give a fuck if their beliefs and values would make them feel otherwise.  If you kill innocent people, you are a piece of shit in my book, regardless of what you believe in.  But I can't call them cowards - it takes a lot of balls to be willing to die for something you believe in.  I would call them assholes or psychos, and cowardly in that they killed so many innocent people, but not cowardly in that they were willing to die for something they believed in.

I seem to recall a late night talk show host getting canned for daring to voice just such an opinion.

 

[Havenbull]

They are cowards because they don't believe in death as a total finality.  Radical Islamists actually claim to know that there is a much better life that awaits them.  Not comparable to Christians believing in heaven.  Much different.

Ending your life when you thing you're stepping through a door to a higher state is not cowardly.  It's like children anxious to fall asleep the night before Christmas so they can open their toys.

[24KT]

Simple:

We all have the power to choose our actions

The USA is responsible for it's actions with-in the realm of how it contributed to the motivation for those 19 hijackers.  but they are not responsible or to blame for the action itself. 

That action was a choice made by 19 fanatics.

To say the USA is responsible is like saying:

If you don't do "x" then i'll kill innocnet people and it will be your fault.   

that's classic criminal mentality.

Do you mean like when they offered the Taliban roads paved with gold for that pipeline, or when they demanded the gov of Afghanistan turn him over immediately or they were going to blast it into the middle ages. Wasn't it spun in the context that it was the Afghans own fault 'cause all they had to do was turn him over? Wasn't it spun that the invasion of Iraq was Saddam's own fault, ...'cause all he had to do was turn over the WMD's that Rummy knew were there? You know, ...the ones whose precise locations were known (hidden in Tikrit, and north, south, east & west of there) or boms would rain down upon them? Baghdad would be "shocked & awed"  Or like when they demanded Vietnam do what it wanted, ...or even like when they demanded Hussein comply? Is that what you mean?
I guess Iraq doesn't count because Hussein actually did comply, ...but they went in anyway.
Are these examples of the classic criminal mentality you're talking about?

[CARTEL]

It might not be right but war is the natural state of man...its what we're really good at and I don't see it stopping any time soon.

That is exactly what I mean. I guess a "right" war for some of these idiots would mean we should only retaliate if we get attacked on our soil.

If that ever happened, it would be too late. We would lose massive amounts of civilians.