From Darwin’s Descent of Man

[OzmO]

Hitler was obsessed with killing Jews to his last day.  He killed not only Jews, but also cripples, mental patients, people with physical and mental retardation, all regardless of race.  He was convinced that "the weak kind" must not survive.  "Even in his own defeat in April 1945, Hitler expressed his faith in the survival of the stronger and declared the Slavic peoples to have proven themselves the stronger."[1]  Hitler believed in this so much that some say that if he had not waisted so much money and resources on this, he could have won the war.

1. Peter Hoffman, Hitler's Personal Security (Oxford, UK: Pergamon Press, 1979), p. 264.

Yeah, i think you are right.  what ever the case, where ever he got his ideas, Darwin's idea fits in nicely.

[Dos Equis]

Yeah, i think you are right.  what ever the case, where ever he got his ideas, Darwin's idea fits in nicely.

You must be reading "creationist pamphlets" too?   

[Deedee]

Yeah, i think you are right.  what ever the case, where ever he got his ideas, Darwin's idea fits in nicely.

Actually, no, Darwin's ideas don't fit in nicely.  Darwin's theory was based on survival of the fittest, natural selection, whereas Hitler's belief lay in the superiority of bloodlines... an aryan nation directly descended from the true god.  There's a subtle difference there that people don't get. ANY German, no matter in what poor physical or mental condition, was BETTER than any Jew, no matter how intelligent or fit the latter was. That's not natural selection, that's discrimination based on bloodlines.  He threw in some kill the old, weak, mentally challenged stuff in there cause he was an all-around bastard, but Darwin is never mentioned in his oeuvre, Mein Kampf.  For all we know, he may have been inspired by the Spartans who were also big on throwing defectives off cliffs to keep their society strong, long before Darwin was even an ideer in his freethinking daddy's mind.

[Deedee]

By displaying astonishing ignorance of evolution and natural selection with all this "Hitler" talk about "weeding out the weak."

Of course, your purpose there is not to discuss science, but merely guilt by association: associating the central idea of modern biology with Hitler's crimes makes it easier for you to dismiss the former

I'm inclined to agree. 

[columbusdude82]

Yeah, i think you are right.  what ever the case, where ever he got his ideas, Darwin's idea fits in nicely.

And where, pray tell, did you learn about "Darwin's idea"? Have you read any of his books? Or do you just like to run your mouth as usual?

[Deedee]

You denied Darwin's influence on Hitler?  When?  I don't consider these a denial

I'm not getting defensive.  I'm sorry I gave you that idea!  But I appreciate that you care if I get defensive, since you don't have to.   

Deedee, please don't stop posting, debating me and refuting me on this or any thread!   

I misspoke in the first quote, but in the second I was referring to a theory.  Your thread concept has become a little mixed between the man himself and the interpretation of his theory by others.  But anyway, I'm glad you aren't taking the discussion to heart. And yes, I do care if I cause someone to be upset, so happy it isn't an issue. 

[loco]

By displaying astonishing ignorance of evolution and natural selection with all this "Hitler" talk about "weeding out the weak."

Of course, your purpose there is not to discuss science, but merely guilt by association: associating the central idea of modern biology with Hitler's crimes makes it easier for you to dismiss the former

I'm inclined to agree. 

Are you not aware that Hitler himself was a huge fan of Darwin and justified his brutality against the Jews with Darwinism. He thought he was doing mankind a favour creating his Aryan super race.

I guess Nordic Superman, an atheist who accepts evolution, must be using "guilt by association" too.  I guess to him "associating the central idea of modern biology with Hitler's crimes makes it easier for" him "to dismiss the former" too.  I guess he must be reading "creationist pamphlets" too.   

[OzmO]

And where, pray tell, did you learn about "Darwin's idea"? Have you read any of his books? Or do you just like to run your mouth as usual?

no i just read it.

"With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick; we institute poor laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of everyone to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus, the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as the part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without the deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence, we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage."  - Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

What's a matter can't handle someone else agreeing with loco?

[loco]

no i just read it.




What's a matter can't handle someone else agreeing with loco?

It's not everyday OzmO agrees with loco.   

[OzmO]

It's not everyday OzmO agrees with loco.   

 

I actually agree with you quite a bit, it's just that i don't always say so and we have spent more time debating what we don't agree on.

[loco]

I actually agree with you quite a bit, it's just that i don't always say so and we have spent more time debating what we don't agree on.

Thanks, OzmO!  That's good, but even if you disagreed with me on most or even all things that would be okay too!   

[Deedee]

I guess Nordic Superman, an atheist who accepts evolution, must be using "guilt by association" too.  I guess to him "associating the central idea of modern biology with Hitler's crimes makes it easier for" him "to dismiss the former" too.  I guess he must be reading "creationist pamphlets" too.   

Not really. All NS said was that he thought Hitler was a fan of Darwin. He says nothing of Darwin, nor judges him in any way.  You on the other hand, are subtly trying to use the crimes of Hitler to discredit Darwin and his theory, in order to bolster your own creationist theories

[Deedee]

no i just read it.

No you didn't.    You highlighted half a sentence. Had you highlighted the rest, you would have noted that Darwin believed that you couldn't morally neglect the weak and sick.  Nowhere does Darwin ever advocate violence against others.  Natural selection is all about the weak dying off on their own, not with a helping hand from the rest of the herd.

Hitler's proactive stance toward weeding out the weak is more reminiscent of others, religious thinkers among them, or societies like the Spartans.

[loco]

Hitler's proactive stance toward weeding out the weak is more reminiscent of others, religious thinkers among them, or societies like the Spartans.

More from religious thinkers?  Such as?  I'm willing to learn more about this, but you have yet to post any evidence of this.  Can you at least post some quotes from historians or from people close to Hitler and also references to support this?

[OzmO]

No you didn't.    You highlighted half a sentence. Had you highlighted the rest, you would have noted that Darwin believed that you couldn't morally neglect the weak and sick.  Nowhere does Darwin ever advocate violence against others.  Natural selection is all about the weak dying off on their own, not with a helping hand from the rest of the herd.

Hitler's proactive stance toward weeding out the weak is more reminiscent of others, religious thinkers among them, or societies like the Spartans.

here:

No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man.

and

It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

Whether Darwin is advocating it directly or not, He's highlighting the reasons for killing off the weak.


Now, I'm not saying what you suggested that Drawin advocated a proactive stance towards it.

[loco]

Not really. All NS said was that he thought Hitler was a fan of Darwin. He says nothing of Darwin, nor judges him in any way.  You on the other hand, are subtly trying to use the crimes of Hitler to discredit Darwin and his theory, in order to bolster your own creationist theories

No, I'm not, but you have come to that conclusion on your own and nobody and nothing can change that now.  Who said I was a creationist?  What is your definition of a creationist?

[Deedee]

here:

and

Whether Darwin is advocating it directly or not, He's highlighting the reasons for killing off the weak.


Now, I'm not saying what you suggested that Drawin advocated a proactive stance towards it.

Oh Ozmo!!!!  Read this sentence this paragraph.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as the part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without the deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence, we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind;

You don't like it that he's matter of fact in his tone and that puts you off. However, he's a scientist and his plain, factual language illustrates that. He clearly states that the original instinct of sympathy, which contributed to man's survival (banding together, helping to ward off predators etc) has become even more pronounced as we evolved. And that if we were to neglect saving the weak and sick, it might be practical in some small sense for human society but with "certain and great present evil" i.e. bad, dire moral consequences.  For morality's sake we have to take care of our imbeciles...but we can still hope they won't marry.

So, where is the cry to violence toward the weak and sick? What he writes here is the complete opposite of what Hitler advocates.

And actually, I'm in complete agreement.  I wish imbeciles wouldn't marry either. 

[OzmO]

I understand what you are saying and what Darwin is saying.

Please read this sentence:

Whether Darwin is advocating it directly or not, He's highlighting the reasons for killing off the weak.

Did Hitler get some inspiration from this?  Did this re-enforce his ideas?   Did this help him justify his actions?

[Deedee]

More from religious thinkers?  Such as?  I'm willing to learn more about this, but you have yet to post any evidence of this.  Can you at least post some quotes from historians or from people close to Hitler and also references to support this?

Well, you spoke of eugenics and deplored the number of people who were sterilized and tortured during the early part of the 20th century.  Are you not aware that a number of Christian organizations supported and helped facilitate the program, garnering support for it, etc.  Prostestant groups especially I think, were fond of this measure. I can find you some links but all you have to do is google it, and you'll find reams.

What references do you want regarding Hitler? About his involvement with "mystical, we are God's chosen sun people" stuff? I think it's pretty plain that Darwin mused (capital letters on the word mused) about natural selection in terms of the weakest, sickest dying off on their own thus producing a more hardy society, whereas Hitler advocated the proactive murder of people who were not God's chosen, and as well, the mentally and physically challenged of his own society.  Two totally different mission statements if you ask me... what evidence would you like me to post?  You already have with that Darwin passage.

[Deedee]

I understand what you are saying and what Darwin is saying.

Please read this sentence:

Did Hitler get some inspiration from this?  Did this re-enforce his ideas?   Did this help him justify his actions?

I guess my answer is the same as I gave loco.

Ozmo, I think his work needs to be read in its entirety.  This is one passage, the wording of which some people here seem to think is open to interpretation.  To add to that, Darwin also writes about societies on distant shores needing to treat each other as brothers, etc.   

[OzmO]

I guess my answer is the same as I gave loco.

Ozmo, I think his work needs to be read in its entirety.  This is one passage, the wording of which some people here seem to think is open to interpretation.  To add to that, Darwin also writes about societies on distant shores needing to treat each other as brothers, etc.   

I agree.

[loco]

Well, you spoke of eugenics and deplored the number of people who were sterilized and tortured during the early part of the 20th century.  Are you not aware that a number of Christian organizations supported and helped facilitate the program, garnering support for it, etc.  Prostestant groups especially I think, were fond of this measure. I can find you some links but all you have to do is google it, and you'll find reams.

Yes, I'm aware that of those who supported eugenics in the US during the early part of the 20th century some were Christians.  So what?  It would not be the only time that Christians get divided on issues like this.  Today there are Christians who are pro-choice.  There are Christians who are racist.  Still, eugenics, abortion and racism are not consistent with anything that Jesus said.

Is eugenics, in this case forced sterilization, not consistent with Darwin’s Descent of Man?

What references do you want regarding Hitler? About his involvement with "mystical, we are God's chosen sun people" stuff? I think it's pretty plain that Darwin mused (capital letters on the word mused) about natural selection in terms of the weakest, sickest dying off on their own thus producing a more hardy society, whereas Hitler advocated the proactive murder of people who were not God's chosen, and as well, the mentally and physically challenged of his own society.  Two totally different mission statements if you ask me... what evidence would you like me to post?  You already have with that Darwin passage.

I said that Hitler was inspired by Darwin and I posted quotes, links and references to support that.  If you or anyone here disagrees with me then you will have to tell me that my sources are questionable and you'll will have to tell me why.

You said that Hitler was inspired more by religious thinkers.  Can you post quotes by historians or people who were close to Hitler, with references and links to support that, or is that something you heard or read from questionable sources?

[Deedee]

Yes, I'm aware that of those who supported eugenics in the US during the early part of the 20th century were Christians.  So what?  It would not be the only time that Christians get divided on issues like this.  Today there are Christians who are pro-choice.  There are Christians who are racist.  Still, eugenics, abortion and racism are not consistent with anything that Jesus said.

Is eugenics, in this case forced sterilization, not consistent with Darwin’s Descent of Man?

I said that Hitler was inspired by Darwin and I posted quotes, links and references to support that.  If you or anyone here disagree, you can look at my references and show me where they are wrong or deceptive.

You said that Hitler was inspired more by religious thinkers.  Can you post quotes by historians or people who were close to Hitler, with references and links to support that, or is that something you heard or read from questionable sources?

Eugenics has been around a hell of a lot longer than Darwin's Descent of Man. Royalty has practised it since the beginning of time. I've mentioned the Spartans, probably the most historically famous proponents of eugenics. And, Christians actually found biblical references to help them in their active support of this idea. Darwin's theory of evolution was blasphemous to most people at that time as you can imagine.  So no, I'd have to say the essentially the bible itself influenced many in that area.

Actually, I said Hitler was driven by a variety of sources, all of which he twisted to fit his perception of the perfect world. I've read Mein Kampf (longest psychotic rant in the history of the planet) and various books on the subject.  What people often mistakenly refer to as "Darwinism" is really something else entirely.  But I'll hunt down some links for you when I can.

[columbusdude82]

Deedee, why do you hate the Lord Jesus Christ so much?

Stop it. Darwin inspired Hitler and nothing else! The Nazis' hatred of the Jews had nothing, nothing to do with centuries of Church (both Catholic and Protestant) incitement and pogroms against the Jews.

It was that damn evolution and Darwin. Once you accept that, next thing you know you'll be out throwing people into ovens because you came from monkeys.

[loco]

Eugenics has been around a hell of a lot longer than Darwin's Descent of Man. Royalty has practised it since the beginning of time. I've mentioned the Spartans, probably the most historically famous proponents of eugenics. And, Christians actually found biblical references to help them in their active support of this idea. Darwin's theory of evolution was blasphemous to most people at that time as you can imagine.  So no, I'd have to say the essentially the bible itself influenced many in that area.

Please, list those Biblical references.  I'm not saying they didn't do that, I just want you to post them so that I can learn something new and so that you have something to support your claim.

You say that the Bible influenced many in the area of eugenics.  Please post references to back that up.

Deedee,  just out of courtesy to readers of your posts, it would be nice if you would please include references to support claims such as these, claims that are not common knowledge or that are debatable.  Otherwise, we could all just pull claims and statements out of our butts, then tell anyone who disagrees to go read a book or to go get an education.  That's not much of a good debate in my opinion.

Actually, I said Hitler was driven by a variety of sources, all of which he twisted to fit his perception of the perfect world. I've read Mein Kampf (longest psychotic rant in the history of the planet) and various books on the subject.  What people often mistakenly refer to as "Darwinism" is really something else entirely.  But I'll hunt down some links for you when I can.

Thank you!