Author Topic: If atheism is a religion...  (Read 5680 times)

Necrosis

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2008, 09:22:05 PM »
Scientists and free thinkers know that truth is not a property of man.  The universe is governed by laws that were discovered by man.  Natural science is the process of discovery of these laws.  Our understanding of those laws is limited by human fallibility.

Established science is NOT an authority to be worshiped.  It is frequently refined or out right invalidated by later findings.  It is precisely science's SELF CRITICAL and REVISIONIST stance that separates it from superstition like religious faith.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch ain't it?

he doesnt experience dissonance as he just wont allow it to register. he beleives science is against god when all it does is look for truth. so far we have found over  a million natural processes, and zero gods. but hes there, waiting in the shadows as the creator of all, he is the blip in the quatum vaccum. what a god we have.


columbusdude82

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2008, 03:15:49 AM »
If atheism is a religion, then famine is a foot-high stack of chocolate-chip pancakes with maple syrup and whipped cream on top!

loco

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2008, 05:27:45 AM »
Ask the christian whether they believe in Zeus, Apollo, Mohamed, or Zoroaster.  The will undoubtedly reply no


MMC78,
Ask me.

loco

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2008, 05:31:48 AM »
Show me a christians and I'll show you an atheist.

Ask the christian whether they believe in Zeus, Apollo, Mohamed, or Zoroaster.  The will undoubtedly reply no.  They are atheists to followers of these religions, they believe in just their one god.

A rational person can see one step further and believes in one fewer god.

Christians and atheists are closer than you think.

Non sequitur.  Even if your statement above were true, it does not follow that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Deicide

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2008, 05:45:35 AM »
Non sequitur.  Even if your statement above were true, it does not follow that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Why do you believe your particular deity is more valid than the many others bouncing about in the heads of delusional men?
I hate the State.

MCWAY

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 01:15:45 PM »
Non sequitur.  Even if your statement above were true, it does not follow that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Exactly!! Their claims that Christians are atheists fall flat, for one simple reason (which, for some reason, has rubbed them the wrong way): Atheism is defined, per the Webster's dictionary, as the doctrine that there is NO DEITY.

Our skeptic buddies keep trying to play this percentage game, claiming that Christians believe in 1 deity out of 5000, 10000, or another large number of deities; whereas they believe in no dieties at all. Therefore, the difference between 0.00000000001 and 0.000000000 is insignficant enough to the point that we believers can be called atheists.

The problem is (and I don't know why Columbus, Pole, and MMC are bothered by it) the issue isn't a percentage thing. It's an either/or thing. Either you believe in a deity or you don't. That's like saying (since this is a bodydbuilding site, I'll use this example) that Shawn Ray and Samir Bannout have both enter 15 Mr. Olympia contests. Both of their Olympia-winning percentages are so low, that the difference is insignificant. Therefore you can say that Samir Bannout never won the Mr. Olympia.

But, whenever a magazine does a roll-call on all the past Mr. Os, Bannout's name is on the list and that of Shawn Ray is not. Why is that? Simply this:

All it takes is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia champion. It doesn't matter if Bannout entered 100 Mr. Olympias and lost 99 of them. All he needs is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia Champion. Conversely, Shawn Ray has placed top-5 at all but one of his multiple Olympia appearance. But, he's never placed FIRST.

One out of ten; one out of 100, one out of 1000; it doesn't matter. One win is all it takes to be Mr. Olympia.

If you prefer football analogies, look at John Elway. Prior to 1997, people always harped on the fact that he lost three Super Bowls and the franchise for which he placed lost four. The Buffalo Bills lost four as did the Minnesota Vikings. Well, guess what happened in Super Bowl XXXII: Elway and the Broncos finally got a Super Bowl win. All of a sudden, nobody talked about how many SBs the Brocons and Elway lost. All that mattered was that ONE win. The Broncos would win another title. But, to win two titles, you first have to win ONE.

Same goes for the Christians-are-atheists thing. To be an atheist (by Webster's definition, a standardized neutral one) you must believe in NO deities, whatsover, NONE. If you believe in just ONE, the others in which you don't believe have no bearing and don't matter. If you believe in just one, as is the case if you're a Christian, you are NOT and atheist, period.

Don't you find it funny that "enlightened" men like Dawkins can't seem to grasp the most simplistic and basic of concepts, Loco?

 ;D

MCWAY

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2008, 01:24:42 PM »
he beleives science is against god when all it does is look for truth. so far we have found over  a million natural processes, and zero gods. but hes there, waiting in the shadows as the creator of all, he is the blip in the quatum vaccum. what a god we have.



Wrong again!!! I don't believe science is against God and never have. To the contrary, as David put it in Psalms 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork".



he doesnt experience dissonance as he just wont allow it to register.



What you won't allow to register the simplest of concepts, namely the fact that belief in just ONE deity take you out of the atheist category.

Contrary to your claims and that of Columbus, MMC, Dawkins, and other like-minded skeptics, there's no percentage involved. That's the case in a number of things in life:

How many kids does it take for you to be a parent? ONE!!!

How many times do you have to have sex to lose your virginity? ONE!!!

and, in the same vein,

How many deities does somebody have to believe to exist to not be deemed an atheist? You guess it........ONE!!!


MCWAY

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2008, 02:40:20 PM »
If atheism is a religion, then famine is a foot-high stack of chocolate-chip pancakes with maple syrup and whipped cream on top!

But, ColumbusDude, the percentages are so low (in how many deities get worshipped, especially with Christians) that the difference is insignficant, remember?  ;D

Necrosis

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2008, 04:35:33 PM »
Exactly!! Their claims that Christians are atheists fall flat, for one simple reason (which, for some reason, has rubbed them the wrong way): Atheism is defined, per the Webster's dictionary, as the doctrine that there is NO DEITY.

Our skeptic buddies keep trying to play this percentage game, claiming that Christians believe in 1 deity out of 5000, 10000, or another large number of deities; whereas they believe in no dieties at all. Therefore, the difference between 0.00000000001 and 0.000000000 is insignficant enough to the point that we believers can be called atheists.

The problem is (and I don't know why Columbus, Pole, and MMC are bothered by it) the issue isn't a percentage thing. It's an either/or thing. Either you believe in a deity or you don't. That's like saying (since this is a bodydbuilding site, I'll use this example) that Shawn Ray and Samir Bannout have both enter 15 Mr. Olympia contests. Both of their Olympia-winning percentages are so low, that the difference is insignificant. Therefore you can say that Samir Bannout never won the Mr. Olympia.

But, whenever a magazine does a roll-call on all the past Mr. Os, Bannout's name is on the list and that of Shawn Ray is not. Why is that? Simply this:

All it takes is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia champion. It doesn't matter if Bannout entered 100 Mr. Olympias and lost 99 of them. All he needs is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia Champion. Conversely, Shawn Ray has placed top-5 at all but one of his multiple Olympia appearance. But, he's never placed FIRST.

One out of ten; one out of 100, one out of 1000; it doesn't matter. One win is all it takes to be Mr. Olympia.

If you prefer football analogies, look at John Elway. Prior to 1997, people always harped on the fact that he lost three Super Bowls and the franchise for which he placed lost four. The Buffalo Bills lost four as did the Minnesota Vikings. Well, guess what happened in Super Bowl XXXII: Elway and the Broncos finally got a Super Bowl win. All of a sudden, nobody talked about how many SBs the Brocons and Elway lost. All that mattered was that ONE win. The Broncos would win another title. But, to win two titles, you first have to win ONE.

Same goes for the Christians-are-atheists thing. To be an atheist (by Webster's definition, a standardized neutral one) you must believe in NO deities, whatsover, NONE. If you believe in just ONE, the others in which you don't believe have no bearing and don't matter. If you believe in just one, as is the case if you're a Christian, you are NOT and atheist, period.

Don't you find it funny that "enlightened" men like Dawkins can't seem to grasp the most simplistic and basic of concepts, Loco?

 ;D

not a bad post by you, one of your better ones to be honest. however, your comparing a concrete example like winning an event to an abstract topic like atheism which can be defined in a number of ways. your defintion is valid, however what columbus dude is trying to point out is that you deny all other gods for no good reason and accept yours. why do you deny all other gods, have you researched all other religions, have you looked for other gods?

i would imagine not, but it always strikes me as odd that whatever culture your raised in=your god. kinda takes the strength of the evidence out of the equation, since the highest pos correlation is between indoctrination and faith/religion.


MMC78

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 10:27:41 PM »
Exactly!! Their claims that Christians are atheists fall flat, for one simple reason (which, for some reason, has rubbed them the wrong way): Atheism is defined, per the Webster's dictionary, as the doctrine that there is NO DEITY.

I should have said "non-believer" rather than atheist.  In either case my intent was clear.

Most Christians believe in their god because of circumstance.  Your religion is a product of your upbringing.  If you were born in Iran, you would be a Muslim, if you were born 2100 years ago, you would likely be a pagan.  You reject other dieties not because you have carefully surveyed each and every one of them (both ancient and modern) but because it's all you know.

What's most distressing about the circumstantial faith of Christianity is that it teaches that the poor little girl born a Muslim Yemen is doomed to eternal torture in hell for rejecting Yeshua.

Quote
Our skeptic buddies keep trying to play this percentage game

I didn't notice anyone playing a percentage game.

OzmO

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2008, 07:00:59 AM »
I should have said "non-believer" rather than atheist.  In either case my intent was clear.

Most Christians believe in their god because of circumstance.  Your religion is a product of your upbringing.  If you were born in Iran, you would be a Muslim, if you were born 2100 years ago, you would likely be a pagan.  You reject other dieties not because you have carefully surveyed each and every one of them (both ancient and modern) but because it's all you know.

What's most distressing about the circumstantial faith of Christianity is that it teaches that the poor little girl born a Muslim Yemen is doomed to eternal torture in hell for rejecting Yeshua.

I didn't notice anyone playing a percentage game.

This is exactly true.

How many people since  Jesus's death  are unfairly destined to hell becuase of this?  50 Billion?  Exclusivity is nothing but doctrine.

MCWAY

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2008, 10:20:51 AM »
not a bad post by you, one of your better ones to be honest. however, your comparing a concrete example like winning an event to an abstract topic like atheism which can be defined in a number of ways. your defintion is valid, however what columbus dude is trying to point out is that you deny all other gods for no good reason and accept yours. why do you deny all other gods, have you researched all other religions, have you looked for other gods?

i would imagine not, but it always strikes me as odd that whatever culture your raised in=your god. kinda takes the strength of the evidence out of the equation, since the highest pos correlation is between indoctrination and faith/religion.


Atheism can be defined in a number of ways. That's why I went to the dictionary, for a neutral frame of reference to be used by all, a "concrete" one (if you will). That definition belongs to Webster's Dictionary, NOT to me.

Based on that definition, atheism is anything but abstract: It's the doctrine that there is no deity. Therefore, Christians can't be called atheists. No matter how many deities Christians supposedly deny, as long as they believe in one deity, they aren't atheists.


You will recall that, when Trapezkerl made the same claim about denying other gods in "his" top-10 list, I refuted that by mentioning the various gods of Israel's neighbors mentioned in Scripture (i.e. Dagon, Molech, Baal, Asheroth, Meradoch, just to name a few).

So, what exactly am I allegedly denying, as it relates to these deities: Their existence? Their might?


I should have said "non-believer" rather than atheist.  In either case my intent was clear.

Most Christians believe in their god because of circumstance.  Your religion is a product of your upbringing.  If you were born in Iran, you would be a Muslim, if you were born 2100 years ago, you would likely be a pagan.  You reject other dieties not because you have carefully surveyed each and every one of them (both ancient and modern) but because it's all you know.

A mere assumption on your part, and a somewhat inaccurate one, at that. A non-believer, if you will, is just that. They believe in NO deity. Last time I checked, one is greater than zero, and Christians believe in a deity. So, regardless of what term you use, your claim falls flat.

As for the "if you were born....." here vs. there argument, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China, other than to point out that those folks in other countries aren't atheists, either?



What's most distressing about the circumstantial faith of Christianity is that it teaches that the poor little girl born a Muslim Yemen is doomed to eternal torture in hell for rejecting Yeshua.


Perhaps, you'd be better served being distressed about YOUR odds, especially given all the gods you mentioned. ALL of them have to be non-existence or you (and your skeptic brethren) got some 'splanin' to do.

The same, numerically speaking, would apply to me. But, given what I've studied and learned, I'll put my money on the Almighty God, described in the Bible.


I didn't notice anyone playing a percentage game.

You were one of the folks who started it, claiming that Christians and atheists are "closer than you think", with the difference being that the atheist simply believes in one less god. Again, it's not an issue of believing in one out of 1000, or 10000, or 100,000 vs. believing in 0 out of 1000, or 10000, or 100,000. It's simply: Either you believe in a deity or you don't. If you don't, you're an atheist; if you do, you're not an atheist.




loco

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2008, 11:21:47 AM »
Exactly!! Their claims that Christians are atheists fall flat, for one simple reason (which, for some reason, has rubbed them the wrong way): Atheism is defined, per the Webster's dictionary, as the doctrine that there is NO DEITY.

Our skeptic buddies keep trying to play this percentage game, claiming that Christians believe in 1 deity out of 5000, 10000, or another large number of deities; whereas they believe in no dieties at all. Therefore, the difference between 0.00000000001 and 0.000000000 is insignficant enough to the point that we believers can be called atheists.

The problem is (and I don't know why Columbus, Pole, and MMC are bothered by it) the issue isn't a percentage thing. It's an either/or thing. Either you believe in a deity or you don't. That's like saying (since this is a bodydbuilding site, I'll use this example) that Shawn Ray and Samir Bannout have both enter 15 Mr. Olympia contests. Both of their Olympia-winning percentages are so low, that the difference is insignificant. Therefore you can say that Samir Bannout never won the Mr. Olympia.

But, whenever a magazine does a roll-call on all the past Mr. Os, Bannout's name is on the list and that of Shawn Ray is not. Why is that? Simply this:

All it takes is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia champion. It doesn't matter if Bannout entered 100 Mr. Olympias and lost 99 of them. All he needs is ONE WIN to be a Mr. Olympia Champion. Conversely, Shawn Ray has placed top-5 at all but one of his multiple Olympia appearance. But, he's never placed FIRST.

One out of ten; one out of 100, one out of 1000; it doesn't matter. One win is all it takes to be Mr. Olympia.

If you prefer football analogies, look at John Elway. Prior to 1997, people always harped on the fact that he lost three Super Bowls and the franchise for which he placed lost four. The Buffalo Bills lost four as did the Minnesota Vikings. Well, guess what happened in Super Bowl XXXII: Elway and the Broncos finally got a Super Bowl win. All of a sudden, nobody talked about how many SBs the Brocons and Elway lost. All that mattered was that ONE win. The Broncos would win another title. But, to win two titles, you first have to win ONE.

Same goes for the Christians-are-atheists thing. To be an atheist (by Webster's definition, a standardized neutral one) you must believe in NO deities, whatsover, NONE. If you believe in just ONE, the others in which you don't believe have no bearing and don't matter. If you believe in just one, as is the case if you're a Christian, you are NOT and atheist, period.

Don't you find it funny that "enlightened" men like Dawkins can't seem to grasp the most simplistic and basic of concepts, Loco?

 ;D

Yes, MCWAY, I do find that funny!  Great post!     ;D

MMC78

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2008, 12:28:49 PM »
As a favor to me and others in this conversation can you please keep your posts shorter and more concise?

Atheism can be defined in a number of ways.
So, what exactly am I allegedly denying, as it relates to these deities: Their existence? Their might?

Yes.  Don't make this more complicated that it needs to be.

Quote
A mere assumption on your part, and a somewhat inaccurate one, at that. A non-believer, if you will, is just that. They believe in NO deity. Last time I checked, one is greater than zero, and Christians believe in a deity. So, regardless of what term you use, your claim falls flat.

This was pretty clearly not my intent.

Quote
As for the "if you were born....." here vs. there argument, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China, other than to point out that those folks in other countries aren't atheists, either?

The point being that you don't believe in any gods but your own.  Your belief in that god is due to the time and nature of your upbringing.  If you were born in a different place or time your god would be as irrelevant as zeus is to you today.

Quote
You were one of the folks who started it, claiming that Christians and atheists are "closer than you think", with the difference being that the atheist simply believes in one less god.

Regardless of our motives, neither atheists and christians believe in the thousands of other ancient or modern gods.  That is their similarity, that is all I stated.


MCWAY

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2008, 12:43:58 PM »
The point being that you don't believe in any gods but your own.  Your belief in that god is due to the time and nature of your upbringing.  If you were born in a different place or time your god would be as irrelevant as zeus is to you today.

That's funny!! People believed in the same God in which I believed 2000 years ago. And they believed in God in such places as Rome and Greece.

I get your point that the odds of my believing in God are greater in a country, where Christianity is the official (and dominant) religion. Then again, according to the Old Testament, it didn't take Israel long, before they started worshipping other gods (and they had the Ten Commandments, hot off the presses, so to speak).




ToxicAvenger

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Re: If atheism is a religion...
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2008, 08:06:54 AM »
... then health is a disease.

Discuss.

 :D


your thread starts with a fallacy...

IF??

 ;)


thats like me saying " jesus sucked my cock last nite prove me wrong or free will is a disease" :-\
carpe` vaginum!