Author Topic: Evolution  (Read 9988 times)

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2008, 06:44:17 PM »
I agree that nothing like ape to human has ever been observed but then again like you said thousands of years so lets say that at the very least 7000 yrs. This would give plenty of time to allow for certain mutations to arise and establish themselves, more likely though in that amount of time it would have been something to do with intelligence or perhaps immunity to a diesease, and over time you never know...Im not very well versed in Bible knowledge, so plz correct me if Im wrong but whats to say that we werent created as something other than what we consider to be humans...there are a few anthropological theorys that might coincide with creationism if you can concede evolution. Or whats to say that people have taken a far to literal view of the Bible when it says the God created man and then created all the animals and what it really meant was that God created man and within him created all the animals meaning that all the animals grew from him as an evolutionary terms. This might also explain the concept of Eve perhaps "man" was created as a single cell and God takeing a rib from Adam and makeing Eve was the single cell "Adam" reproducing itself

and yes this does help most people cannot talk about this subject with an open mind and without resulting to insults

At first I thought you were just kidding around, but now I see that you are at the very least interested and approaching this subject with an open mind. I too believe that it was possible that Adam and Eve looked different then the way humans do now. Possibly taller and bigger bone structures maybe a different pigment in the skin, maybe less hair maybe more hair, possibly different tones in their voices, maybe they could here better, possibly bigger and stronger tendons and ligaments and of course they lived over 900 years. This all changed after the flood because pre-flood created things more impressively due to a richer atmospheric preasure. Evidence of this all over the world; example, elephant- willy mammoth, tiger- sabertooth. Clearly this is the oppisite of evolution. Miner changes occur within the species but there are bounderies and laws that will not be broken.

The Bible is perfectly clear on the following;( quick outline for you so you get a better understanding)

4000 bc- Adam and Eve, lived past 900
2400 bc- Noah and the flood, everybody came from Noah
1800 bc- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes of Isreal
1350 bc- Moses and the ten commanments, the exodus and the crossing of the red sea
1010 bc- King Saul, King David, and King Solomon.
930  bc-  Divided Kingdom
700  bc- Assyria conquers Samaria
550  bc- Babylonian Exile
450  bc- Persian rule
320  bc- Alexander the great, Greek rule
year 0  - Jesus, during Roman rule

As you can see there is no room for Cosmic evolution, Steller evolution, Chemical evelution, Organic evolution, or Macro evolution.

MMC78

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2008, 06:53:10 PM »
As you can see there is no room for Cosmic evolution, Steller evolution, Chemical evelution, Organic evolution, or Macro evolution anything intelligible, observable, rational or factual.

tonymctones

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2008, 06:56:56 PM »
Evidence of this all over the world; example, elephant- willy mammoth, tiger- sabertooth. Clearly this is the oppisite of evolution. Miner changes occur within the species but there are bounderies and laws that will not be broken.

The Bible is perfectly clear on the following;( quick outline for you so you get a better understanding)

4000 bc- Adam and Eve, lived past 900
2400 bc- Noah and the flood, everybody came from Noah
Im sorry I might have misunderstood your post are you saying that the elephant and wooly mammoth are related or the same species and the tiger and sabertooth?

And again my knowledge of the Bible is not great but I was under the impression that they Bible didnt give dates for the these events?

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2008, 06:57:09 PM »

Everything I've mentioned has been observed

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2008, 07:04:08 PM »
Im sorry I might have misunderstood your post are you saying that the elephant and wooly mammoth are related or the same species and the tiger and sabertooth?

And again my knowledge of the Bible is not great but I was under the impression that they Bible didnt give dates for the these events?
They are the same species, yes.
 And the Bible does give dates, these are very simple to calculate. For example, we know Jesus lived 2 000 years ago based on our very own calender, and we know the Babylonian exile was 550 years before Jesus from there you can calculat all the generations from the tribe of Judah to King David and King David to Abraham and Abraham to Noah and Noah to Adam.I am glad you are asking questions.

tonymctones

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2008, 07:12:43 PM »
They are the same species, yes.
 And the Bible does give dates, these are very simple to calculate. For example, we know Jesus lived 2 000 years ago based on our very own calender, and we know the Babylonian exile was 550 years before Jesus from there you can calculat all the generations from the tribe of Judah to King David and King David to Abraham and Abraham to Noah and Noah to Adam.I am glad you are asking questions.
but doesnt that give evidence for evolution?
and i never knew that about the dates

Dos Equis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2008, 07:24:07 PM »
The earth is not a perfect sphere.

You forget to mention the earthquakes, volcanic eruptions (which made Haiwaii), tsunamis, hurricanes, blizzards and general natural occurences which are not very conducive to life.

Arthritis, cancer, congenital disease; these are the results of 'intelligent design'?

And of course the appendix, a useless organ that can potentially kill us has been intelligently designed as well?

Yes, life can exist here, but it is not optimal and one would expect far more from an omipotent, infallible god than this mud mall we are stuck on.

And yet we have cities, states, countries, and over 6 billion on the planet.  But you're changing the subject.   :)

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2008, 07:24:43 PM »
but doesnt that give evidence for evolution?
and i never knew that about the dates
This is like having a German sheppard and a putol, although different they are both still dogs if a dog changed into cat then that would be evidance, but the only change is in size, means nothing we even havw human midgets.

Dos Equis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2008, 07:26:01 PM »
I must say some of the things you say sound intelligent, but some of the things you say are plain stuped. World not being perfect....huh. If you shrunk the earth to the size of a pool ball, it would be just as round and just as smooth. If the earth was 1 querter of an astronamical mile closer to the sun we would roast, and 1 q further we would freeze.

Beachbum was obviously saying the earth was perfect in comparising to other heavenly body's not your fantasy of a planet that evolved from an object the size of a grain of sand that exploded 20 billion years ago.

Right.  To think that an explosion created our planet and set it in motion in perfect harmony with the sun and moon requires a pretty good imagination. :)

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2008, 07:36:46 PM »
Right.  To think that an explosion created our planet and set it in motion in perfect harmony with the sun and moon requires a pretty good imagination. :)
Better yet, The size of the matter that exploded was smaller the this period.

Isn't that like saying 1 + 1 = 656353537374335755356453 753737345356337655653444 553453

beatmaster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2008, 07:45:51 PM »
The Bible is perfectly clear on the following;( quick outline for you so you get a better understanding)

4000 bc- Adam and Eve, lived past 900
2400 bc- Noah and the flood, everybody came from Noah


you gotta be kidding me, right?
i feel sorry for them, when people say they believe that Noah's ark was true.

again taken from a book, wrote 100 of years after the event, re-wrote and re-wrote again

and why do you stop at 4000 bc, why not 10,000 or more, oh yeah you can't, it's not in the book.
but we do have proof, bones, mammoth, dinosaur......... you mean it was in noah's ark too? and all the insects too, snakes, all living in peace, damn, noah was good.

oh i found this:

Genes and Brains Tell the Tale of Human Evolution

This wonderful article titled “Beyond Stones & Bones” provides a great summary of recent discoveries to human evolution, in particular in the area of genetics and brain science.

The great tale of human evolution is just so fascinating. A vital part of it is the use of genetics to tell the story. A delightful example provided in this article is that of using body lice to infer when human lost their body hair for good. It goes like this: body lice live in cloths, so by the time they appeared, human would have started to cover themselves with some sort of clothing, which implies loss of body hair. Now body lice is evolved from head lice (which lives in our hair), so by comparing their DNA changes, which happens at regular rate, we could calculate when human started to lose body hair for good. Using this clever technique, scientists concluded that this happened about 114,000 years ago.



Using DNA scientists have worked out that humans and chimps evolved apart around 5 to 6 millions years ago, supported by the fact that the climate became dramatically colder around that time. The recent discoveries of the HAR1 and PDYN genes shred some light on how the brain plays its part in the evolution. The HAR1 gene may “… likely helped the cortexes of our ancestors develop the elaborate folds characteristic of a complex brain”, and that the PDYN gene may have advanced brain chemistry.


The brain also provides interesting detective work into human evolution. Apart from the size of brains of various earlier species, the shape and structure also tell quite a bit. For example, Australopithecus africanus and paranthropus existed 2.5 millions years ago. The brain shape of africanus seems to support a more advanced development of an area of the brain called area 10, which plays a key-role in advance planning, decision making an taking initiatives - and this might explain why africanus evolved while paranthropus did not.

Another fascinating side of the article tells how the study of DNA seems to suggest that the “out of Africa” exodus is more complicated then previously thought. It seems like around 66,000 years ago, a very small group of modern Homo sapiens moved out Africa to other parts of the world, replacing other homo species that were already there (such as Neanderthals - these species were migrated out from Africa starting some 2 millions ago and evolved locally) - and this small group is our ancestor.

The article concludes with the mentioning of three more important genes: FOXP2 which plays a role in language and speech, appeared about 200,000 years ago when anatomically homo species evolved; ASPM which contributes to brain size appeared around 5,800 years ago when we started to build cities; and microcephalin which also affects brain size appeared 37,000 years ago when “symbolic thinking” was a major advanced in our ancestors.

This article is worth your time reading as it provides an interesting summary of recent advances in evolution coming from genetics and brain science. The great tale of human evolution continues…
are you delusional?

beatmaster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2008, 07:48:13 PM »
Right.  To think that an explosion created our planet and set it in motion in perfect harmony with the sun and moon requires a pretty good imagination. :)

you're joking right  :-\
are you delusional?

Deicide

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2008, 08:08:34 PM »
you gotta be kidding me, right?
i feel sorry for them, when people say they believe that Noah's ark was true.

again taken from a book, wrote 100 of years after the event, re-wrote and re-wrote again

and why do you stop at 4000 bc, why not 10,000 or more, oh yeah you can't, it's not in the book.
but we do have proof, bones, mammoth, dinosaur......... you mean it was in noah's ark too? and all the insects too, snakes, all living in peace, damn, noah was good.

oh i found this:

Genes and Brains Tell the Tale of Human Evolution

This wonderful article titled “Beyond Stones & Bones” provides a great summary of recent discoveries to human evolution, in particular in the area of genetics and brain science.

The great tale of human evolution is just so fascinating. A vital part of it is the use of genetics to tell the story. A delightful example provided in this article is that of using body lice to infer when human lost their body hair for good. It goes like this: body lice live in cloths, so by the time they appeared, human would have started to cover themselves with some sort of clothing, which implies loss of body hair. Now body lice is evolved from head lice (which lives in our hair), so by comparing their DNA changes, which happens at regular rate, we could calculate when human started to lose body hair for good. Using this clever technique, scientists concluded that this happened about 114,000 years ago.



Using DNA scientists have worked out that humans and chimps evolved apart around 5 to 6 millions years ago, supported by the fact that the climate became dramatically colder around that time. The recent discoveries of the HAR1 and PDYN genes shred some light on how the brain plays its part in the evolution. The HAR1 gene may “… likely helped the cortexes of our ancestors develop the elaborate folds characteristic of a complex brain”, and that the PDYN gene may have advanced brain chemistry.


The brain also provides interesting detective work into human evolution. Apart from the size of brains of various earlier species, the shape and structure also tell quite a bit. For example, Australopithecus africanus and paranthropus existed 2.5 millions years ago. The brain shape of africanus seems to support a more advanced development of an area of the brain called area 10, which plays a key-role in advance planning, decision making an taking initiatives - and this might explain why africanus evolved while paranthropus did not.

Another fascinating side of the article tells how the study of DNA seems to suggest that the “out of Africa” exodus is more complicated then previously thought. It seems like around 66,000 years ago, a very small group of modern Homo sapiens moved out Africa to other parts of the world, replacing other homo species that were already there (such as Neanderthals - these species were migrated out from Africa starting some 2 millions ago and evolved locally) - and this small group is our ancestor.

The article concludes with the mentioning of three more important genes: FOXP2 which plays a role in language and speech, appeared about 200,000 years ago when anatomically homo species evolved; ASPM which contributes to brain size appeared around 5,800 years ago when we started to build cities; and microcephalin which also affects brain size appeared 37,000 years ago when “symbolic thinking” was a major advanced in our ancestors.

This article is worth your time reading as it provides an interesting summary of recent advances in evolution coming from genetics and brain science. The great tale of human evolution continues…


That's too complicated for our resident fundies.

Yall know, all dem dumb ass scientists at Harvard and Oxford ain't got no clue what's going on. It's all 'bout Jebus.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2008, 08:23:28 PM »

tonymctones

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2008, 08:33:07 PM »
This is like having a German sheppard and a putol, although different they are both still dogs if a dog changed into cat then that would be evidance, but the only change is in size, means nothing we even havw human midgets.
ok but then this opens the door to a host of different possibilties as well, when the term ape is used in the context of humans evolving could that not just be a simple label "ape" could mean just a different form of human such as a midget, and that we were all slightly different in the time of adam and eve than we are now and through breeding and other evolutionary processes became what we now consider to be human...after all the first "dogs" by todays standards would be considered wolves not dogs

beatmaster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2008, 08:42:57 PM »
That's too complicated for our resident fundies.

Yall know, all dem dumb ass scientists at Harvard and Oxford ain't got no clue what's going on. It's all 'bout Jebus.

lollll, i know!

and still they don't believe in santa claus, i think it's a nice story too!

don't worry they will come up with something, saying it cannot be, blablabla, this and that, because the book said so.

you know if me and my friends start a religion and a book it might work, in 2000 years, i'll be a god  8)
are you delusional?

Necrosis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2008, 08:44:10 PM »
Or our perfectly shaped planet magically appeared and all life as we know it began with single celled creature that magically appeared on our perfectly shaped planet.  That is obviously much more plausible. 

oh god not you too. nothing magical about it. in fact it all follows the principles of complexity and physics.

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2008, 08:44:39 PM »
ok but then this opens the door to a host of different possibilties as well, when the term ape is used in the context of humans evolving could that not just be a simple label "ape" could mean just a different form of human such as a midget, and that we were all slightly different in the time of adam and eve than we are now and through breeding and other evolutionary processes became what we now consider to be human...after all the first "dogs" by todays standards would be considered wolves not dogs
A human and an Ape can't have off spring.Never could and never will be able to

Deicide

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2008, 08:46:56 PM »
A human and an Ape can't have off spring.Never could and never will be able to

Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens could...hmm... ;D
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Necrosis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2008, 08:48:36 PM »
At first I thought you were just kidding around, but now I see that you are at the very least interested and approaching this subject with an open mind. I too believe that it was possible that Adam and Eve looked different then the way humans do now. Possibly taller and bigger bone structures maybe a different pigment in the skin, maybe less hair maybe more hair, possibly different tones in their voices, maybe they could here better, possibly bigger and stronger tendons and ligaments and of course they lived over 900 years. This all changed after the flood because pre-flood created things more impressively due to a richer atmospheric preasure. Evidence of this all over the world; example, elephant- willy mammoth, tiger- sabertooth. Clearly this is the oppisite of evolution. Miner changes occur within the species but there are bounderies and laws that will not be broken.

The Bible is perfectly clear on the following;( quick outline for you so you get a better understanding)

4000 bc- Adam and Eve, lived past 900
2400 bc- Noah and the flood, everybody came from Noah
1800 bc- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes of Isreal
1350 bc- Moses and the ten commanments, the exodus and the crossing of the red sea
1010 bc- King Saul, King David, and King Solomon.
930  bc-  Divided Kingdom
700  bc- Assyria conquers Samaria
550  bc- Babylonian Exile
450  bc- Persian rule
320  bc- Alexander the great, Greek rule
year 0  - Jesus, during Roman rule

As you can see there is no room for Cosmic evolution, Steller evolution, Chemical evelution, Organic evolution, or Macro evolution.

jesus, are you kidding? i cant tell sorry?

tonymctones

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2008, 08:50:10 PM »
A human and an Ape can't have off spring.Never could and never will be able to
i agree but thats not what i was trying to say, what i was saying is that like dogs perhaps the "original" humans were like that of apes and through breeding like that in dogs and other evolutionary processes that we became to be what we now consider to be "humans" same species but a different form the species much like that of the different breeds of dogs

Necrosis

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2008, 08:53:15 PM »
Right.  To think that an explosion created our planet and set it in motion in perfect harmony with the sun and moon requires a pretty good imagination. :)

it wasnt an explosion but an expansion and we the singularity is a mathematical concept not a physical occurance. its not in perfect harmony by the way, as asteroids wiped out the dinosaurs, also, supernovas, black holes etc... and relativity explains it quite effectively.

i too look upon our existence with awe and wonder how this happened, and ask the question, why is there something rather then nothing? it may lead me down a path of circular logic but i dont think the answer is in a benevolent being that wants you to follow a few laws.

beatmaster

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2008, 09:00:11 PM »
it wasnt an explosion but an expansion and we the singularity is a mathematical concept not a physical occurance. its not in perfect harmony by the way, as asteroids wiped out the dinosaurs, also, supernovas, black holes etc... and relativity explains it quite effectively.

i too look upon our existence with awe and wonder how this happened, and ask the question, why is there something rather then nothing? it may lead me down a path of circular logic but i dont think the answer is in a benevolent being that wants you to follow a few laws.

nope, asteroids wiped out the dinosaurs because god said so, if god exist anything is possible  ::)
are you delusional?

MMC78

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2008, 10:00:07 PM »
Everything I've mentioned has been observed

Quote
4000 bc- Adam and Eve, lived past 900
2400 bc- Noah and the flood, everybody came from Noah

No. 

No evidence for Adam and Eve.

No evidence of Noah.

There is explicit evidence contradicting these stories.  Population genetics as determined by the Y chromosome for males and mitochondrial  DNA for women shows QUITE clearly that we are not all descended from a single man that lived 4400 years ago.

If you're a man of faith, then why do you care whether there is observable evidence?  Isn't it a matter of faith?

OTHstrong

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2008, 11:07:50 PM »
No. 

No evidence for Adam and Eve.

No evidence of Noah.

There is explicit evidence contradicting these stories.  Population genetics as determined by the Y chromosome for males and mitochondrial  DNA for women shows QUITE clearly that we are not all descended from a single man that lived 4400 years ago.

If you're a man of faith, then why do you care whether there is observable evidence?  Isn't it a matter of faith?
yes, but this doesn't mean that there isn't evidance
There is evidance of Noah and a world wide catostrophy.
i agree but thats not what i was trying to say, what i was saying is that like dogs perhaps the "original" humans were like that of apes and through breeding like that in dogs and other evolutionary processes that we became to be what we now consider to be "humans" same species but a different form the species much like that of the different breeds of dogs
I know what you are trying to say, but listen carefully because now I feel that I am repeating myself. Species can't cross over, "other evolutionary processes" is something that you are taking by faith alone.