The most retarded of all the BB drug myths

[Matt C]

I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard

I agree with your point that you can have a great physique such as the one described above, on relatively modest steroid stacks.  That said, my main point is that steroids (along with nutrition) are the biggest factor in bodybuilding.

If Ronnie Coleman trained hard and ate big and Victor Martinez took all the drugs he currently takes and did no working out aside from the bowflex, who do you think would be Mr. Olympia?

[HowieW]

I agree with your point that you can have a great physique such as the one described above, on relatively modest steroid stacks.  That said, my main point is that steroids (along with nutrition) are the biggest factor in bodybuilding.

If Ronnie Coleman trained hard and ate big and Victor Martinez took all the drugs he currently takes and did no working out aside from the bowflex, who do you think would be Mr. Olympia?

Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.

[Matt C]

Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.

Perhaps...

But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9.  My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed.  That is around as much as I can do.

Discuss.

[arce377]

...

[Moosejay]

Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.

correct...and don't forget about the purportedly heavy use of various narcotics now implemented along with the panoply of steroids, GH, Insulin, etc.

[Brutal_1]

...

lol 

[Moosejay]

Perhaps...

But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9.  My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed.  That is around as much as I can do.

Discuss.

you'd likely better serve yourself at 180-185

[NeverTrustABlonde]

SUMMARY:

If you lack the genetics , training work ethic or diet discipline; you won't ever be much in this sport.

[candidizzle]

 

[Army of One]

A solid nattie.

[candidizzle]

no way ruhl has ever even touched any kind of gear.

if he  has he should ask for his money bak...dude got ripped off!!

[FrenchFrie]

Read this abstract and if you have access to the journal, download and read the entire study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535

Four groups were studied:

1. Placebo with no exercise
2. Testosterone with no exercise
3. Placebo plus exercise
4. Testosterone plus exercise.

Both of the testosterone groups gained the most muscle and strength.  That means the ones taking steroids and not working out gained more than the ones who were natural (placebo) and working out.  Let's also keep in mind the placebo effect was at play here.  They may have gained even less muscle not using the placebo and being truly natural (this I am not sure of though).

The gains for those taking steroids were significantly higher than those taking a placebo.  The difference in gains between the steroid users who worked out and those who didn't were marginal.  Proof that steroids made the biggest difference.  The steroid users who also trained only made slightly better gains than the steroid users literally doing nothing.

Translated: if I were to stop working out and go on a cycle described above I would maintain or increase both my strength and muscularity without even working out.  I would gain more muscle and strength than I currently can naturally.  Fact.

This is exactly the same in pro bodybuilding only on a bigger scale of course.

I am NOT saying I could take the drugs Victor Martinez takes and look like him.  I am saying that HE could take the same drugs he is currently take, cease all training, and retain over 80% of his size and  conditioning eating the same diet, sleeping, and perhaps throwing in a few push-ups.

Cows gain hundreds of pounds of muscles on BGH simply by eating a high calorie diet due to the increased protein synthesis caused by said BGH.  They do not "work hard in the gym" which so many pro bodybuilders are delusional enough to believe make a big difference in their results.  The main catalyst for growth is steroids.

In comparison to drugs, training is fuck all.

awesome analysis.

[HowieW]

A solid nattie.

Even if this pic and nattie comment had nothong to do with this thread, it was funny as hell !
That stuff hangin' out if his mouth really makes the pic.
Yes, it is true that if you want to have any chance of being a 300 lb freak like Marcus, you need to be juiced to the gills. But, if you want to have good physique, and enjoy a long healthy life, you can do that with ease without any drugs, that is my pt.
Howard

[HowieW]

Perhaps...

But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9.  My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed.  That is around as much as I can do.

Discuss.

How old are you? I am also about 5'9" ( 5 ft , 9 and 1/2 inches to be exact).
A legit , solid, failry muscular 16 -17 " arm on a guy under 6 ft is pretty good.
Most that say they have 20" or bigger guns , lie their ass off.
I had to get over 240 to get legit 20" arms and I know I look worse as a result.Why?
I am too damn bulky now and lost some of the lines and overall shape I once had.
I did well in shows a lot lighter years ago.
I am dropping the extra wt, which is some fat as well LOL.
Matt, if you have the right shape and frame, a ripped 190 lb body at 5'9" can look incredible.
Lots of fantastic Lt Hvys ( 176 -198 lb class) are 5'8" - 5'9" and around 190's.
Zane won 3 Olympias with that kind of size. In my humble opinion, he was the best Mr O .
I am getting back to around 200 and want to looked ripped again. I may not have legit 20" arms at that lower wt, but I bet I ook a hell of a lot better on stage.
Howard

[Matt C]

Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.



I am pretty well the same height you are.  Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long.  Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright.  But short AND flat arms are a problem!  So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics.  If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.

Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html

[gh15]

The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc.In that light, I admit that I honestly don't know what the "genetic response" effect really is in any objective measure. I do know I was able to do just fine without taking ANYTHING in regional shows against guys that claimed to be on various amounts of juice. I have seen plenty of other guys on either NO drugs or low/moderate levels do pretty well also in regional NPC shows.The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding. I know for a fact that any guy with decent genetics can do just fine building a good physique on little to no drug use. This is the best of all worlds in my opinion. Build a great physique and strong healthy body that stays young and in shape for years. Then, compete in local/state shows , get a few trophies and have some great times in contests, etc. I also think that going to pro events is a lot of fun.They show what can be done with the best genetics and extreme regimes. I admire thew pros for their physiques, but have no desire to endure what they go thru.  I have a good job and don't need bodybuilding for anything but a healthy lifestyle and sport I enjoy.
Look, if some Joe Blow-Mr Nobody, old fart,  like me can build a 20" arm with just reg training and no extreme drug regimes, I bet a lot of guys can. Plus, I am 49 now and damn near 50.  Yes, I use Androgel to keep my testosterone levels in the ideal -normal range, but that is it.I am NOTHING special and I have done just fine building muscle without having to resort to major, extreme drug use. I am nothing close to a pro physique, but did build some decent muscle size in 31 yrs of pumping iron. THAT is my point

you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,

infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones

generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card

any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the  worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones

truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size

all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too

[gh15]

Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.



I am pretty well the same height you are.  Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long.  Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright.  But short AND flat arms are a problem!  So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics.  If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.

Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html

you got very weird back,,its like your arms and delts are developed to almost a cycle of 2 type of level of hormonization and then the back itself is like of a 14 year old kid,,got to work on the lats and the back widness,,maybe its the pose or picture but it look like a lifter arms and delts atached to a 14 year old kid back,,very strange but this can be fixed if you stop working your arms and move to the back,,your delt dont need work either,,once every 3 weeks will sufice

[Matt C]

you got very weird back,,its like your arms and delts are developed to almost a cycle of 2 type of level of hormonization and then the back itself is like of a 14 year old kid,,got to work on the lats and the back widness,,maybe its the pose or picture but it look like a lifter arms and delts atached to a 14 year old kid back,,very strange but this can be fixed if you stop working your arms and move to the back,,your delt dont need work either,,once every 3 weeks will sufice

Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest.  Interestingly, not physically though.  I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.

What do you suggest I do for my back?

[chaos]

Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest.  Interestingly, not physically though.  I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.

What do you suggest I do for my back?

Rows on an incline angle.

[Van_Bilderass]

Matt C, you goddamn juice monkey. When are you going to come clean about doing Thai Dbol? 

You're never going to change your proportions either. That's what you're always going to look like, you can only get bigger or smaller.

[War-Horse]

you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,

infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones

generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card

any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the  worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones

truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size

all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too

Good lord....

[Hurricane Beef !]

Are you serious? you really believe this??? I can't even think of an intelligent reply based on my experience and observations in bodybuilding , other than ; " If what you say is 100% true, than why don't we have legions of gym rats that look like exactly like the top guys at the Olympia?"

Matt is 100% on the money. The Beef can lay off training for 4 months, put 500 mgs of Omna in his system and feel The Beef's body changing in two weeks. Add more protein and hit the gym 4 days a week and shit happens.

Like the great 619Rules once said . . . put 4 grams of gear per week in anyone  and they can be a national level competetor.

The Beef

[Brutal_1]

Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest.  Interestingly, not physically though.  I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.

What do you suggest I do for my back?

Actually, I don't think he was referring to your lower back.  The first thing I noticed on your back is your great lower back development, something you can tell quickly wether or not someone deadlifts. (coach!  )  But definitely need to spend more time in the trenches with barbell/dumbell rows! 

 

[HowieW]

you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,

infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones

generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card

any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the  worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones

truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size

all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too

Aaah, the wizzard of the drugs weighs in on my thread. Hmmm, yes, I am tad bloated but that is due more to fat than any drug use. My testosterone levels on the prescribed Androgel are in the middle of the normal level , in my case my last levels were 680 mg/dl on the range of 100 -1000 mg/dl. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you or anyone else that you can make decent gains without drugs. I know what I can do with my regime and am happy and healthy at near 50 now. I have known a few othes that do just fine in building thier physiques without drugs as major factor.

[HowieW]

Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.



I am pretty well the same height you are.  Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long.  Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright.  But short AND flat arms are a problem!  So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics.  If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.

Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html

Matt, you have decent base and some impressive delts. Try some strict preacher curls doing heavy drop sets.
Warm up for a couple sets , then put on a wt you can do 6 strict reps with, then strip off a plate from each side ( about 10% of the wt) and do some more reps , repeate for 1 more drop.
Your back work is in need of a major overhaul. I would advise you to use wts that allow you feel the lats work, in and out like a big rubber band. Stick with whey pro 2-3 times per day with a lot of good basic food and keep training.
Thanks for posting the pic, Howard