Author Topic: The Empty Tomb  (Read 20499 times)

Lord Humungous

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2008, 05:19:45 PM »
I don't believe in fairy tales.

Thats ok keep telling yourself your not queer, all your dreams may come true
X

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2008, 05:33:46 PM »
snip...
Anyone who has visited the Garden Tomb recognizes the validity of Bonar's perceptions: the site of Golgotha is topologically identifiable as at the peak of the ridge system between the Kidron Valley and the Tyropean Valley; midway between the Mount of Olives and Mount Zion.  It is also a very short walk to the tomb, and the tomb itself seems to fit a number detailed specifications from the Gospel texts:

1. It is proximate to Golgotha (Jn 19:41).
2. It was a new tomb hewn in the rock (Mt 27:60; Lk 23:53; Jn   19:41). 
3. It was a garden area (Jn 20:41, 42).  The enclosed cistern of 250,000 gallons implying a single, very wealthy, owner.
4. It was adjacent to a wine press.
5. It had a rolling stone door (Mt 27:60; 28:2; Mk 16:3; Lk 24:2).
6. The tomb itself was just to right of a wailing chamber (Mk 16:5).
7. And, it is empty!  (Lk 24:6, 12; Jn 20).
8. Gordon's Calvary

Dogmatic religion is a mind-boggling exercise in confirmation bias. Try to read about this from a purely historical perspective. Jesus is a myth that may have some basis in one or more real persons, but "Jesus" is not a verifiable historical factual character.

CD

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2008, 05:41:40 PM »
I think we need to make some specific distinctions here:

There are at least three different versions of Jesus...

1-Jesus the historical character, for whom there is NO direct historical evidence. But for whom a good circumstantial case could be made.

2-Jesus the Messiah/Christ, the supposed son of God and founder of the Christian faith

3-Holy Jeebus, the version of Jesus believed in by illiterate and ignorant evangelical Christians (and to a lesser extend representative of the god of modern Christians)


Coach should be a little more specific with regard to which Jesus/Jeebus he is referring to...


The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2008, 07:36:58 PM »
So The Luke, are you absolutely sure about #1? Because if you are sure, you just bebunked every archiolgical find relating to the historical evidence of Jesus' existance as found by Christian and NON-Christian arciologists, might want to rethink your answer!

MMC78

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2008, 07:49:51 PM »

The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2008, 07:57:21 PM »
So The Luke, are you absolutely sure about #1? Because if you are sure, you just bebunked every archiolgical find relating to the historical evidence of Jesus' existance as found by Christian and NON-Christian arciologists, might want to rethink your answer!

Coach, there is NO historical evidence that Jesus ever existed.

There are no contemporary references, that is... when you disregard all the FORGED references that the Church itself faked.


If you can provide any Coach you could easily claim the $800,000 Templeton Prize.


The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2008, 08:13:20 PM »
Having a hard time typing on this thing....but The Templeton Prize already acknowledges a God (with a capitol G) and a Creator.

warrior_code

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2008, 08:18:18 PM »
There is more hard evidence that shows extra terrestrial life exists then A Creator. 

bigdumbbell

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2008, 08:22:11 PM »
happy Ground Hogs day joloco

SirTraps

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2008, 08:22:45 PM »
Coach, there is NO historical evidence that Jesus ever existed.

There are no contemporary references, that is... when you disregard all the FORGED references that the Church itself faked.


If you can provide any Coach you could easily claim the $800,000 Templeton Prize.


The Luke

 Thats not true, there are records kept by the Romans which mention Him.

The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2008, 08:54:48 PM »
Thats not true, there are records kept by the Romans which mention Him.

...No.

We have references to Roman records from non-contemporary sources. The church has been amassing these for centuries, they're all bullshit.

Jesus may well have existed, but the historical Jesus would not have been anything like the Jesus of the gospels. The story of the gospels is completely plagiarized and significantly older than the Jesus movement.


The basic facts of Jesus' life as reported in the gospels:
-born in a cave or stable (like all sun gods)
-born on 25th December (like all sun gods)
-born of a virgin (opposite the Virgo constellation; like all sun gods)
-his birth is attended by three wise magi (magicians; like all sun gods)
-an evil king attempts to have him murdered in infancy and kills many innocents (this is Jewish)
-he is fully cogniscent of all knowledge by age twelve
-he gathers to him 12 disciples (and a concubine fallen woman; the Magdalene... symbolic of the twelve zodiac signs and the hidden thirteenth zodiac sign)
-he renames his disciples
-he travels around preaching to crowds
-he heals the sick
-he feeds the masses (usually with fish and bread)
-he heals the lame
-he heals the blind
-he raises the dead
-he arrives triumphantly at the capital atop a donkey (a donkey represents the mastered base self)
-he is betrayed and delivered to a tyrant king
-the king has him crucified (on a cross, tree or T shaped cross)
-he is buried in a cave or tomb (like all sun gods)
-he rises from the day three days later at Easter time (like all sun gods)
-he appears to his disciples then ascends into heaven

However, all twenty of these facts are exactly the same in the stories of several other pagan mystery religions and equally well apply to:
-Tammuz (the Samaritan messiah)
-Attis (Persian)
-Osiris
-Horus
-Mithras
-Hercules and Heracles
-Apollo
-Diana
-Pythagoras (yes, the mathematician)
-Plato (yes the philosopher... he also became a god)

...most of these messiahs predate the Jesus movement by millenia.
Early church fathers countered the claims of plagiarism from pagan cults by invoking the doctrine of "Diabolical Mimicry": seems the Devil knew Jesus was coming and he sent all these satanic false messiahs to spread peace, love and understanding before Jesus so that he could undermine the completely original Jesus mission.

I didn't even touch on the homosexual twist to the Jesus movement.


The world needs atheism...



The Luke

SirTraps

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2008, 09:06:46 PM »
Probably the most famous non-Christian source used as evidence for a historic Jesus, is the Roman senator, consul, speaker, and historian Cornelius Tacitus ( 20 - 117 AD). In a passage in his "Annales, book 15, verse 44" from the year 115 AD concerning the Christians, he mentions the name "Christ" as the subject for the Christian's cult and worship:
"Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of... Pontius Pilate, and the pernicious [or wicked] superstition [Christianity] was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."


Then we have Tranquillus Gaius Suetonius ( 69 - 140 AD), a Roman historian and the personal secretary of emperor Hadrian. Suetonius also mentions the name Chrestus as the subject of the Christians worship.
"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Claudius) expelled them from Rome".

    Those are two Roman historians who lived in the first century, AD

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2008, 09:14:51 PM »
Having a hard time typing on this thing....but The Templeton Prize already acknowledges a God (with a capitol G) and a Creator.

Joe,

If you believe in a creator, please, don't make you evidence be something that is man-made.

Man-made things are flawed, they are politically and financially motivated, among other reasons.

Man is imperfect, and so are the things we come up with.  Any group can create any evidence for anything they like, to suit their purposes.  In centuries past, churches have been corrupt businesses at times. 

I believe in God for my own reasons.  I know he's there from my own experiences.  I believe we're a part of him, and have been, and will be forever, because that's what I believe.  I don't point at anything man-made as proof of a higher power.  IMHO, using man-made evidence to back up your beliefs means it can be debunked by other man-made evidence with its own earthly motives.  This creates doubt, the enemy of faith.

Believe in God on your own, without trying to prove it to anyone.  If someone doesn't believe in God, well, that's between the two of them.  None of us can know or prove anything about the afterlife, and we'll all get there eventually. 

Epic_Monster

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2008, 09:23:17 PM »
The American Indians consider the falcon as the greatest of birds.  They represent and embody the power of, Thunder Bird, The Great Spirit. They believe its feathers carry the prayers of people to the father Sun.

Spirit of Truth

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 09:23:47 PM »
Joe,

If you believe in a creator, please, don't make you evidence be something that is man-made.

Man-made things are flawed, they are politically and financially motivated, among other reasons.

Man is imperfect, and so are the things we come up with.  Any group can create any evidence for anything they like, to suit their purposes.  In centuries past, churches have been corrupt businesses at times. 

I believe in God for my own reasons.  I know he's there from my own experiences.  I believe we're a part of him, and have been, and will be forever, because that's what I believe.  I don't point at anything man-made as proof of a higher power.  IMHO, using man-made evidence to back up your beliefs means it can be debunked by other man-made evidence with its own earthly motives.  This creates doubt, the enemy of faith.

Believe in God on your own, without trying to prove it to anyone.  If someone doesn't believe in God, well, that's between the two of them.  None of us can know or prove anything about the afterlife, and we'll all get there eventually. 


Good post.  I find general belief in a creator of higher power to be far less objectionable than belief in a scripture-based religion.  Not only does it do less harm, but it's more compatible with possible reality.  I personally don't have a belief in a higher power, but I can tell you if all the worlds christians and muslims suddenly became deists (general belief in a creator without belief in a particular religious dogma), the world would be a far better place.
Ron: "I am lazy."

The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2008, 09:30:50 PM »
Both of whom wrote those references circa the year 100. That's seventy years after the fact, or two lifetimes later in those times... that's hardly contemporary.

There is growing evidence that the historical Jesus was little more than a claimant to the Jewish throne who tried to raise an army; was crucified for it and then posthumously made the centrepiece of a Hebrew-ified version of the common Mediterranean mystery religion.

This "new" religion had no inner mysteries and anyone could join for a small fee... which went to the Essenes, who in turn used it to raise money for the 70 AD revolt against the Romans. The Romans butchered them all, as was their wont when dealing with zealots... leaving Pauline Christianity a leaderless cash-cow.

The same thing happened with Scientology when the immortal L Ron Hubbard ascended to a higher plane of existence after a lengthy illness. The scam outlived the con-man.

Seeing as the entire Jesus story is a fiction plagiarized from other religions, is it really such a jump to posit the possibility that Jesus himself is also a fiction? After all, what kind of Essene Jew has a Helenized name (which also happens to be a Gammatrical numerical code pun), espouses Egyptian rituals (the Lord's Prayer is word for word lifted from the Pyramid texts), parrots back Buddha's sermons (the beatitudes) and performs miracles in accordance with the exact manner in which Pythagoras performed them?



Before anyone points to the Josephus reference to Jesus: it's a forgery.

Early Church Fathers announced the reference to Jesus around 300 AD and insisted that any copy of Josephus' Histories not containing it be burned as the obvious handiwork of the devil. Historians wishing to keep their Josephus texts simply amended them in accordance with Church dogma... the older versions do allude to the miracle birth of a divine child occasioned by a stellar alignment, but this is a pandering reference to the birth of Octavian (later to be the first emperor: the divine Augustus).


The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2008, 09:34:40 PM »
Good post.  I find general belief in a creator of higher power to be far less objectionable than belief in a scripture-based religion.  Not only does it do less harm, but it's more compatible with possible reality.  I personally don't have a belief in a higher power, but I can tell you if all the worlds christians and muslims suddenly became deists (general belief in a creator without belief in a particular religious dogma), the world would be a far better place.

I believe there's a higher energy which we are all part of.  Little pieces of God with amnesia playing hide and seek, if you will.  Or, some common creating source of all this energy that we start and remain a part of.  I think the big bang was just matter bouncing off a wall, and it's always been here and always be there.  I don't buy "there was nothing, then one day everything just appeared".

it's dangerous when any human believes he has all the answers, or has the audacity to believe he possesses the rubric for OTHERS getting into heaven.  That irritates me.  When I hear "so-and-so believes this, so he's not going to heaven", that annoys me.  None of us knows anything to a certainty, and we certainly cannot prove it.  To say you KNOW what will happen to others, when you cannot prove what happens to yourself, it's annoying.

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2008, 09:34:50 PM »
Probably the most famous non-Christian source used as evidence for a historic Jesus, is the Roman senator, consul, speaker, and historian Cornelius Tacitus ( 20 - 117 AD). In a passage in his "Annales, book 15, verse 44" from the year 115 AD concerning the Christians, he mentions the name "Christ" as the subject for the Christian's cult and worship:
"Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of... Pontius Pilate, and the pernicious [or wicked] superstition [Christianity] was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."


Then we have Tranquillus Gaius Suetonius ( 69 - 140 AD), a Roman historian and the personal secretary of emperor Hadrian. Suetonius also mentions the name Chrestus as the subject of the Christians worship.
"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Claudius) expelled them from Rome".

    Those are two Roman historians who lived in the first century, AD

The absolute most these could prove is that there were "christians" floating around in the late first century CE, not the existance of a historical Jesus.
Ron: "I am lazy."

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2008, 09:40:29 PM »
The same thing happened with Scientology when the immortal L Ron Hubbard ascended to a higher plane of existence after a lengthy illness. The scam outlived the con-man.


2000 years from now they'll be arguing about the same shit re: scientology, even though everyone who is living in this age knows its origins and the fact it's a scam.    (assuming we don't all wipe ourselves out before then).
Ron: "I am lazy."

The Luke

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2008, 09:43:53 PM »
The absolute most these could prove is that there were "christians" floating around in the late first century CE, not the existance of a historical Jeses.

...and "Christ" only means "Leader" or "Lord".

Bar Kochbah (leader of a later revolt against the Romans) was referred to as "Christ" and was even officially sanctioned as the "messiah" promised in Isiah by the Temple authorities.

I believe the Tacitus reference to the "vile disease" of Christianity is actually discussing the Roman belief that Christians were secretly cannibals. Although it could be a reference to Cappocratian Christianity which involved ritualized sodomy.


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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2008, 09:49:56 PM »
There were several "Illusionist" characters that were around during the time of Jesus that could perform all types of stuff - floating in the air, walking on water etc. Several of these stunts were later transfered to jesus. who was given credit for them even though he never actually did any of them.

Christians,Muslims etc are so fanatical about these "magic" books that were written by MAN. These books didnt fall out of the sky. They were compiled by men who saw a great scheme to prey on the gullibilty of the uneducated masses who were ready to believe anything. Its strange that all these so called religious figures started when men were relatively primitive in their way of thinking. How many of these religious figures have made an appearance recently? Zero. Isn't it about time for Jesus or muhammed to make another appearance? Oh wait i forgot...they're expected anyday now  ::). Keep waiting retards.

There is no evidence to prove the existence of god becausei ts just a state of mind of delusional/opportunistic men. Surely an all powerful being such as god would have the means to end this pointless debate by providing concrete evidence and not vague mumblings in the minds of opportunists.

Religion is a nice bedtime story for those who like to be led around like to be told what to do.

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2008, 09:55:10 PM »
You know, it's interesting how many atheists and agnostics there are on internet boards (not just this one... most boards) where people can anonymously express their true opinions, yet to look at the polls, America is like 90% Christian. 

The disconnect is interesting.  ;)
Ron: "I am lazy."

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2008, 09:57:04 PM »
Why is Jesus Christ so special? Why do billions of people celebrate his birth? Why do we believe that Jesus was the Messiah? What if he was just a man? Does it really make a difference? If you have ever asked yourself these same questions, be assured that the Bible does have the answers.

For the greater part of the last 2,000 years the historical existence of Jesus has not been questioned. However, in the last two centuries an increasing number of skeptics have claimed that Jesus never existed, even though a cursory review of ancient Roman and Rabbinical writings reveals that Jesus was indeed a historical figure. The Babylonian Talmud, an ancient rabbinical commentary, makes a number of references to Jesus of Nazareth. The first century Jewish historian Josephus also made references to Jesus: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. If it be lawful to call Him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works. He was the Christ. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him are not extinct to this day... (The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3.)"

Throughout its text the Bible clearly teaches that there is but one God. However, the mystery of the Godhead is that this one God manifests Himself in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This fact has led to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, the attributes of God, the works of God and the names of God are applied to all three persons of the trinity. Throughout the Old Testament we are given a glimpse of the deity and majesty of the Messiah (also called the Anointed One). Furthermore, the fact that God is a plural being, eternally existent in more than one person, is also found throughout the Old Testament. Elohim, the plural form of El, one of the names of God, is seen throughout the Old Testament (see Genesis 1:1) and in Genesis 1:26 God states, "Let us make man in our image..."

In the New Testament the disciples clearly spoke of the preeminence and deity of Jesus Christ. He is identified as the creator of the universe (Jn 1:1-14, Col 1:16), God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), and our Lord and Savior (Titus 1:1-4). This is only a small sample of their claims about the nature and identity of Christ. By healing the sick, resurrecting the dead, creating food out of nothing and by defying the laws of gravity, Jesus demonstrated His authority over the laws of physics and thereby revealed His divine nature. Jesus’ resume is impeccable. All the necessary attributes of the Creator are applied to Him within the Biblical text – he is independent of space and time, transcendent, distinct from his creation, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and has authority over the laws of nature. Jesus himself claimed to be the Son of God and the only way to eternal life (John 4:25; 9:35-37; 10:30-3; 14:6-9).

Jesus Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for us. It will take an eternity for us to understand what it cost Him that we might live. He "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:7-11)."


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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2008, 09:58:07 PM »
You know, it's interesting how many atheists and agnostics there are on internet boards (not just this one... most boards) where people can anonymously express their true opinions, yet to look at the polls, America is like 90% Christian. 

The disconnect is interesting.  ;)

Athiests are usually the loudest.  Just like extreme religious types are also the loudest.

The middle 90%, they either believe or they don't but they don't scream in the face of those who disagree.  The interweb is great for people who like to scream at those who are different.

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Re: The Empty Tomb
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2008, 10:00:15 PM »
You know, it's interesting how many atheists and agnostics there are on internet boards (not just this one... most boards) where people can anonymously express their true opinions, yet to look at the polls, America is like 90% Christian. 

The disconnect is interesting.  ;)

Depends on how you poll- If you poll mainly christians you'd get that figure.

There are lies-damned lies and statistics + polls  ;D