Alpha Lipoic Acid

[candidizzle]

Actually, I had no idea what your point was...  Other than you were saying that Fish Oil was a better option than Omega 3's.  That's what you said isn't it?  And it made no sense because Fish Oil is a great source "OF" Omega 3's.

And you're asking me if I'm retarded?  Do this, print out all of your posts on GetBig, no edits or anything, take them to a Nutritionist, Personal Trainer, anyone with a Brain; and have them review your posts.  TRUST ME!  They'll be asking you if you're retarded "bro".

LOL your an entertaining guy

[DK II]

Actually, I had no idea what your point was...  Other than you were saying that Fish Oil was a better option than Omega 3's.  That's what you said isn't it?  And it made no sense because Fish Oil is a great source "OF" Omega 3's.

And you're asking me if I'm retarded?  Do this, print out all of your posts on GetBig, no edits or anything, take them to a Nutritionist, Personal Trainer, anyone with a Brain; and have them review your posts.  TRUST ME!  They'll be asking you if you're retarded "bro".

just stop arguing with candydrizzle, he's the new suckmymuscle here..

[Cindy]

Just because im a machine

Clin Cancer Res. 2007 Feb 1;13(3):1061-7. Links
Flaxseed and its lignans inhibit estradiol-induced growth, angiogenesis, and secretion of vascular endothelial growth factor in human breast cancer xenografts in vivo.
Bergman Jungeström M, Thompson LU, Dabrosin C.
Divison of Oncology, Faculty of Health Sciences, University Hospital, Linköping, Sweden.
PURPOSE: Vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) is a potent stimulator of angiogenesis, which is crucial in cancer progression. We have previously shown that estradiol (E2) increases VEGF in breast cancer. Phytoestrogens are potential compounds in breast cancer prevention and treatment by poorly understood mechanisms. The main phytoestrogens in Western diet are lignans, and flaxseed is a rich source of the mammalian lignans enterodiol and enterolactone. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: In the present study, ovariectomized mice were treated with continuous release of E2. MCF-7 tumors were established and mice were fed with basal diet or 10% flaxseed, and two groups that were fed basal diet received daily injections with enterodiol or enterolactone (15 mg/kg body weight). RESULTS: We show that flaxseed, enterodiol, and enterolactone counteracted E2-induced growth and angiogenesis in solid tumors. Extracellular VEGF in vivo, sampled using microdialysis, in all intervention groups was significantly decreased compared with tumors in the basal diet group. Our in vivo findings were confirmed in vitro. By adding enterodiol or enterolactone, E2-induced VEGF secretion in MCF-7 cells decreased significantly without agonistic effects. The increased VEGF secretion by E2 in MCF-7 cells increased the expression of VEGF receptor-2 in umbilical vein endothelial cells, suggesting a proangiogenic effect by E2 by two different mechanisms, both of which were inhibited by the addition of lignans. CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest that flaxseed and its lignans have potent antiestrogenic effects on estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer and may prove to be beneficial in breast cancer prevention strategies in the future.


There is more but whats the point, it is anti estrogenic, by acting as a SERM. take nolvadex it is a form of inactive estrogen a SERM which inhabits the receptors so actual estrogen cannot cause an effect and is degraded, overall less estrogen.

Very interesting. I will share with my neighbor, she was diagnosed with Breast Cancer.

[Necrosis]

Very interesting. I will share with my neighbor, she was diagnosed with Breast Cancer.

im actually writing a book on oncology and natural treatments.

you might want to look into lactoferrin, dca, paw paw, flax,egallic acid and casein(cottage cheese).

flax has some particularly good effects in breast cancer as it is hormone dependent.

[www.BrinkZone.com]

sure id like to hear his opinion

For one, it's a moot issue if you are talking about flax oil. The main flaxseed lignan is secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG), which is found in the hull but which occurs in the oil in very small quantities. I don't generally recommend large amounts of ground flax seed to men, but it's also a far more complicated issue than you realize, and no simple lignan = estrogenic effects should be made. The term "phyto estrogen" is not automatically a negative per se, as it may act as an anti estrogen depending on the tissue in question and other variables.

For example, flax lignans were found to reduce mammary carcinogenesis, which means it's acting as an anti estrogen in those tissues. For example: "phytoestrogens, like certain selective estrogen receptor modulators, have an antiproliferative effect on the breast, and positive effects on the lipoprotein profile and bone density.   They might also improve some of the climacteric symptoms."   (Brzezinski A & Debi A, Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol, 85(1): 47, 1999)

The bottom line here is, it's WAY more complicated than you think. Should men run out and eat large amounts of ground flax seed in hopes of getting an anti estrogenic effect? No, as large amounts of weak estrogens in the male system can still act as an estrogen, but the effects, dose needed, etc, etc are far from clear at this time.

Should men worry about the tiny amounts of lignans found in flax oil? No. As mentioned, I have known and or trained some high level men using up to 7tbl spoons per day of flax oil, with no negative impact on them that I could see, and one mentioned a reduction in gyno, which he attributed to the addition of the flax oil, bu of course that's an n =1 observation and not objective science by any means. Studies in animals, again, suggest interesting effects:

J Toxicol Environ Health A. 1999 Apr 23;56(:555-70.

    Dose, timing, and duration of flaxseed exposure affect reproductive indices and sex hormone levels in rats.
    Tou JC, Chen J, Thompson LU.

    Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

    Flaxseed ingestion produces large amounts of mammalian lignans. Since lignans have weak estrogenic/antiestrogenic properties, the objective of this study was to determine in rats whether exposure to 5% or 10% flaxseed affects sex hormone levels and reproductive indices when given at different developmental stages. Rats were exposed to either a basal diet (control), 5%, or 10% flaxseed diet starting at weaning on postnatal day (PND) 21 or continuously from gestation to PND 132 for lifetime exposure. Compared to the control, exposure to 5% or 10% flaxseed after weaning produced no marked reproductive effects, whereas lifetime flaxseed exposure caused significant changes that differed depending on the dose. In female rats, lifetime exposure to 5% flaxseed affected the reproductive tract as indicated by delayed puberty onset. In contrast, lifetime exposure to 10% flaxseed caused earlier puberty onset, higher relative ovarian weight, higher serum estradiol levels, and lengthened estrous cycles. In male rats, lifetime 10% flaxseed exposure raised serum testosterone and estradiol levels and produced higher relative sex organ weights and prostate cell proliferation. In contrast, lifetime exposure to 5% flaxseed reduced adult relative prostate weight and cell proliferation, suggesting potential protection against prostatic disease, although sex hormone levels were unaffected. In conclusion, flaxseed can potentially alter reproduction, depending on the dose and timing of exposure.

PS, I plan on writing about this topic in my next news letter. Last two if you are interested can be found:

April:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?aid=119&acatid=8

March:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?aid=116&acatid=8

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

   

[DK II]

Thanks a lot Will!

This post was like a cool shower on a hot summer's day!

[www.BrinkZone.com]

im actually writing a book on oncology and natural treatments.

you might want to look into lactoferrin,

My article on lactoferrin BTW:

http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=2088&query=lactoferrin&hiword=LACTOFERRINS%20lactoferrin%20

[www.BrinkZone.com]

Thanks a lot Will!

This post was like a cool shower on a hot summer's day!

Glad I could be of help. 

[Markoni]

Brink what about ALA , is it worth of using it ?

[www.BrinkZone.com]

Brink what about ALA , is it worth of using it ?

For what? "Worth" is a very general term. For general health as a good anti oxidant, yes. For seeing an increase in LBM or strength, no. If you are a diabetic, yes, etc,.

[Determinator]

I'm going to try ALA and indeed received a pot of Primaforce 300mg caps today.
The above post also rings true of ZMA, in that it you won't see muscle and strength gains, but it does wonders for sleep (well, 3-D dreams). That in turn will enhance recovery and as a by product, could lead to bodybuilding results.

[Necrosis]

For what? "Worth" is a very general term. For general health as a good anti oxidant, yes. For seeing an increase in LBM or strength, no. If you are a diabetic, yes, etc,.

really, the nutrient partioning effects aka insulin sensitization should lead to LBM changes in the long run. I agree that it is a potent fat and water soluble anti-ox.

[Markoni]

For what? "Worth" is a very general term. For general health as a good anti oxidant, yes. For seeing an increase in LBM or strength, no. If you are a diabetic, yes, etc,.

for getting better insulin sensitivity  , " ALA can be used post-workout to enhance glycogen restoration "  , to use it with my PWO   , also what about using it during meals , I see Poliquin recommends to use his ALA supps during meal ?

[www.BrinkZone.com]

really, the nutrient partioning effects aka insulin sensitization should lead to LBM changes in the long run

"should" is not a word that works well in science. In healthy athletes with normal to above average insulin metabolism, I would expect to see no effects on changes in LBM in the long run or otherwise. Regardless, there is no real data in that group, and I and others have taken plenty of the stuff without any changes in LBM that could be detected. Again, for people with reduced insulin/glucose metabolism: diabetics, people with Syndrome X, etc, it looks worth using for sure.

[Necrosis]

"should" is not a word that works well in science. In healthy athletes with normal to above average insulin metabolism, I would expect to see no effects on changes in LBM in the long run or otherwise. Regardless, there is no real data in that group, and I and others have taken plenty of the stuff without any changes in LBM that could be detected. Again, for people with reduced insulin/glucose metabolism: diabetics, people with Syndrome X, etc, it looks worth using for sure.

hmm should is often used as is may, like x may have effects on y but further research is needed. this is semantics and not really relevant to the discussion imo.

i agree it hasnt been tested in the athletic population but some great supps havent had alot either like sesamin which has real world effects. However, ALA has in vitro studies which clearly indicate up regluation (higher avidity) or glut4 receptors in skeletal muscles, and direct activation of AMPK receptors. However this is in rats which have different perioxsome proliferation and composition changes are somewhat skewed.

but increases insulin sensitivity, and up regulated transporters and higher beta oxidation would be very beneficial. I geuss we will have to wait for non pathological human trials.

[www.BrinkZone.com]

hmm should is often used as is may, like x may have effects on y but further research is needed. this is semantics and not really relevant to the discussion imo.

It not semantics and is totally relevant to the discussion. Many many compounds have been found be effective in X but not in Y, or tested, and found not to to jack sh*& for X or Y.

i agree it hasnt been tested in the athletic population but some great supps havent had alot either like sesamin which has real world effects.

Not relevant. If you want to take a supp on the basis that another totally unrelated  supp lacks solid objective data but has subjective reports of working in the "real world" that's your business. I also happen to know plenty of people who have used sesamin without any results, but that's another issue...

However, ALA has in vitro studies which clearly indicate up regluation (higher avidity) or glut4 receptors in skeletal muscles, and direct activation of AMPK receptors. However this is in rats which have different perioxsome proliferation and composition changes are somewhat skewed.

Great, if you want to spend $$$$ on supps based on an invitro study, again, it's your money. My opinion was asked specifically, and I gave it. There is not enough data to justify it's use for increasing LBM or strength on athletic populations period, nor have I ever been impressed with feedback, or impressed with personal use, etc.

but increases insulin sensitivity, and up regulated transporters and higher beta oxidation would be very beneficial. I geuss we will have to wait for non pathological human trials.

Agreed. It's still good for you, and has some uses on various pathology, but I think there is better $$$ spent. There is a long line of questions that would have to be answered beyond simply showing an up regulation of Glut4, etc, which does not defacto = an increase in LBM or strength in athletic population that already have above average metabolism in that respect. The other simple question is dose. At what dose does this effect happen? No in vitro test is going to tell you that, and as always, the dose needed for an effect is issue with any supp, as most supps have a far lower dose in the bottle than is needed for the effect. Here at least is something better than an in vitro study in favor of ALA having effects on bodycomp. However, note, it didn't seem to alter bodycomp, they simply ate less, and therefore had lower body fat/carcass weight.

J. Anim. Sci. 2005. 83:2611-2617

© 2005 American Society of Animal Science
ANIMAL PRODUCTS

Effect of dietary {alpha}-lipoic acid on growth, body composition, muscle pH, and AMP-activated protein kinase phosphorylation in mice1
Q. W. Shen, C. S. Jones, N. Kalchayanand, M. J. Zhu and M. Du2

Department of Animal Science, University of Wyoming, Laramie 82071

2 Correspondence: 1000 E. University Ave. (phone: 307-766-3429; fax: 307-766-2355; e-mail: mindu@uwyo.edu).

The effects of {alpha}-lipoic acid (ALA) on the growth, body composition, postmortem AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) activation, and 24-h muscle pH were investigated. Thirty male C57BL/6J mice were fed diets containing 0, 0.5, or 1.0% ALA (DM basis). At the end of the 3-wk feeding trial, carcass weights decreased (P < 0.05) 14 and 30% for mice fed 0.5 and 1.0% ALA, respectively, compared with the 0% group, with decreases in BW as the levels of dietary ALA increased. This change in carcass weight occurred because carcass fat content for mice receiving 0.5 and 1.0% ALA was 7.32 and 8.09% lower (P < 0.05), respectively, than for the 0% ALA treatment, and because gonadal fat decreased (P < 0.05) 85% in mice fed 1.0% ALA compared with those fed 0% ALA. Dietary ALA caused a slight increase (P < 0.05) in carcass moisture content, with no (P = 0.07) effect on protein and ash content. Furthermore, ALA supplement decreased (P < 0.05) ADFI (DM basis) from 4.3 g/d for 0% ALA-fed mice to 3.4 g/d for 1.0% ALA-fed mice. At 20 min postmortem, pH was greater (P < 0.05) in muscle of mice fed 1.0% ALA than in muscle of mice fed 0% ALA. Ultimate (24-h) pH values differed (P < 0.05) among treatments, and mean values were 5.83, 6.08, and 6.29 for 0, 0.5, and 1.0% ALA, respectively. Phosphorylation of AMPK {alpha} subunit at Thr172, an indicator of AMPK activation, was decreased (P < 0.05) in muscle of ALA-treated mice at 20 min postmortem. Because AMPK has a crucial role in the control of glycolysis, the reduction in AMPK activation decreases glycolysis, and thereby increases the ultimate pH of postmortem muscle. In summary, dietary ALA supplement can decrease fat accumulation in mice, and because ALA increased muscle pH at 20 min and 24 h postmortem, these results suggest that dietary ALA supplementation might decrease carcass fatness and prevent the development of PSE pork and poultry. However, further research is required to test the effects of ALA in swine and poultry.

[candidizzle]

this brink character sure is entertaining

[Necrosis]

It not semantics and is totally relevant to the discussion. Many many compounds have been found be effective in X but not in Y, or tested, and found not to to jack sh*& for X or Y.

Not relevant. If you want to take a supp on the basis that another totally unrelated  supp lacks solid objective data but has subjective reports of working in the "real world" that's your business. I also happen to know plenty of people who have used sesamin without any results, but that's another issue...

Great, if you want to spend $$$$ on supps based on an invitro study, again, it's your money. My opinion was asked specifically, and I gave it. There is not enough data to justify it's use for increasing LBM or strength on athletic populations period, nor have I ever been impressed with feedback, or impressed with personal use, etc.

Agreed. It's still good for you, and has some uses on various pathology, but I think there is better $$$ spent. There is a long line of questions that would have to be answered beyond simply showing an up regulation of Glut4, etc, which does not defacto = an increase in LBM or strength in athletic population that already have above average metabolism in that respect. The other simple question is dose. At what dose does this effect happen? No in vitro test is going to tell you that, and as always, the dose needed for an effect is issue with any supp, as most supps have a far lower dose in the bottle than is needed for the effect. Here at least is something better than an in vitro study in favor of ALA having effects on bodycomp. However, note, it didn't seem to alter bodycomp, they simply ate less, and therefore had lower body fat/carcass weight.

J. Anim. Sci. 2005. 83:2611-2617

© 2005 American Society of Animal Science
ANIMAL PRODUCTS

Effect of dietary {alpha}-lipoic acid on growth, body composition, muscle pH, and AMP-activated protein kinase phosphorylation in mice1
Q. W. Shen, C. S. Jones, N. Kalchayanand, M. J. Zhu and M. Du2

Department of Animal Science, University of Wyoming, Laramie 82071

2 Correspondence: 1000 E. University Ave. (phone: 307-766-3429; fax: 307-766-2355; e-mail: mindu@uwyo.edu).

The effects of {alpha}-lipoic acid (ALA) on the growth, body composition, postmortem AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) activation, and 24-h muscle pH were investigated. Thirty male C57BL/6J mice were fed diets containing 0, 0.5, or 1.0% ALA (DM basis). At the end of the 3-wk feeding trial, carcass weights decreased (P < 0.05) 14 and 30% for mice fed 0.5 and 1.0% ALA, respectively, compared with the 0% group, with decreases in BW as the levels of dietary ALA increased. This change in carcass weight occurred because carcass fat content for mice receiving 0.5 and 1.0% ALA was 7.32 and 8.09% lower (P < 0.05), respectively, than for the 0% ALA treatment, and because gonadal fat decreased (P < 0.05) 85% in mice fed 1.0% ALA compared with those fed 0% ALA. Dietary ALA caused a slight increase (P < 0.05) in carcass moisture content, with no (P = 0.07) effect on protein and ash content. Furthermore, ALA supplement decreased (P < 0.05) ADFI (DM basis) from 4.3 g/d for 0% ALA-fed mice to 3.4 g/d for 1.0% ALA-fed mice. At 20 min postmortem, pH was greater (P < 0.05) in muscle of mice fed 1.0% ALA than in muscle of mice fed 0% ALA. Ultimate (24-h) pH values differed (P < 0.05) among treatments, and mean values were 5.83, 6.08, and 6.29 for 0, 0.5, and 1.0% ALA, respectively. Phosphorylation of AMPK {alpha} subunit at Thr172, an indicator of AMPK activation, was decreased (P < 0.05) in muscle of ALA-treated mice at 20 min postmortem. Because AMPK has a crucial role in the control of glycolysis, the reduction in AMPK activation decreases glycolysis, and thereby increases the ultimate pH of postmortem muscle. In summary, dietary ALA supplement can decrease fat accumulation in mice, and because ALA increased muscle pH at 20 min and 24 h postmortem, these results suggest that dietary ALA supplementation might decrease carcass fatness and prevent the development of PSE pork and poultry. However, further research is required to test the effects of ALA in swine and poultry.

so in this obstensibly scientific discussion you tell me the word should is a misnomer yet you have used anecdotal evidence and friends results in uncontrolled situations with multiple extraneous variables as evidence for or against.

"Not relevant. If you want to take a supp on the basis that another totally unrelated  supp lacks solid objective data but has subjective reports of working in the "real world" that's your business. I also happen to know plenty of people who have used sesamin without any results, but that's another issue..."

"Great, if you want to spend $$$$ on supps based on an invitro study, again, it's your money. My opinion was asked specifically, and I gave it. There is not enough data to justify it's use for increasing LBM or strength on athletic populations period, nor have I ever been impressed with feedback, or impressed with personal use, etc. "

i meant in vivo also.

[www.BrinkZone.com]

so in this obstensibly scientific discussion you tell me the word should is a misnomer yet you have used anecdotal evidence and friends results in uncontrolled situations with multiple extraneous variables as evidence for or against.

Incorrect.  I used it as a counter to the fact it was stated some feel they get a response from X regardless of their being no solid data. You said "but some great supps havent had alot either like sesamin which has real world effects."

That's the best example of using anecdotal evidence  in uncontrolled situations with multiple extraneous variables as evidence for one could ever use...I pointed out plenty of people don't feel they get any response, neither of which replaces well controlled studies, nor is there any claim for such. The point being, for every "I don't care what studies say/I don't care there are no studies, it worked for me" I can supply plenty of people who feel they got nothing from X. Nowhere did I use subjective info as a replacement for objective data as you did above.

[Necrosis]

Incorrect.  I used it as a counter to the fact it was stated some feel they get a response from X regardless of their being no solid data. You said "but some great supps havent had alot either like sesamin which has real world effects."

That's the best example of using anecdotal evidence  in uncontrolled situations with multiple extraneous variables as evidence for one could ever use...I pointed out plenty of people don't feel they get any response, neither of which replaces well controlled studies, nor is there any claim for such. The point being, for every "I don't care what studies say/I don't care there are no studies, it worked for me" I can supply plenty of people who feel they got nothing from X. Nowhere did I use subjective info as a replacement for objective data as you did above.

i outlined ALA's possible benefits which require more research like alot of supps, drugs etc.. i can provide studies in vivo which outline its effects on body composition, then add to the fact that its a potent anti-oxident which is fat soluble and i beleive it merits supplementation or experimentation. Often results of studies do not correlate with real world results, look at SSRIS for example and there glowing results in study and shitty remission rates.

regardless i appreciate you posting on this forum as your knowledge is certainly welcome.

[www.BrinkZone.com]

i outlined ALA's possible benefits which require more research like alot of supps, drugs etc.. i can provide studies in vivo which outline its effects on body composition,

Sounds good. Throw a few of those up in case I have not seen them. I have not seen anything in vivo on body comp that convinced me it would be useful to bbers.

then add to the fact that its a potent anti-oxident which is fat soluble and i beleive it merits supplementation or experimentation.

Agreed. Considering it's many potential benefits, I would give it a "might be worth a try" status, but would not hold my breath in terms of seeing any effects on bodycomp in healthy bbers/athletes.

Often results of studies do not correlate with real world results, look at SSRIS for example and there glowing results in study and shitty remission rates.

It's a non Non sequitur issue here. Yes, some times studies don't follow real world results and some times they do. The reason for that is of course multi factorial and beyond the scope of this here thread, ranging from good old placebo effects to biased or poorly designed studies. It's not however a reason to then justify the use of X supplement or drug.

regardless i appreciate you posting on this forum as your knowledge is certainly welcome.

Much appreciated. I do my best to give the balanced no BS objective facts as they exist, and let people make up their own mind.

[Faust]

Sounds good. Throw a few of those up in case I have not seen them. I have not seen anything in vivo on body comp that convinced me it would be useful to bbers.

Agreed. Considering it's many potential benefits, I would give it a "might be worth a try" status, but would not hold my breath in terms of seeing any effects on bodycomp in healthy bbers/athletes.

It's a non Non sequitur issue here. Yes, some times studies don't follow real world results and some times they do. The reason for that is of course multi factorial and beyond the scope of this here thread, ranging from good old placebo effects to biased or poorly designed studies. It's not however a reason to then justify the use of X supplement or drug.

Much appreciated. I do my best to give the balanced no BS objective facts as they exist, and let people make up their own mind.

What do you think about the "longevity"-effects of ALA?

http://www.theherbsplace.com/Alpha_Lipoic_Acid_and_Longevity_sp_85.html

I have gained an interest recently in this subject and it seems u know quite a bit about it (though i can't find much on your website).

[www.BrinkZone.com]

What do you think about the "longevity"-effects of ALA?

http://www.theherbsplace.com/Alpha_Lipoic_Acid_and_Longevity_sp_85.html

I have gained an interest recently in this subject and it seems u know quite a bit about it (though i can't find much on your website).

Not sure what I can add that I didn't already say in the thread. It appears to have various benefits yes, but I would not count on it extending your life span per se as a stand alone "longevity" treatment.

[Cindy]

Any commnents on R-Lipoic Acid?