Question for Bob? Assets?

[Ron]

This is actually Tiffany Remy

Tiffany and Bob dated quite seriously here in Venice, California. Tiffany was always quite nice and cool. As such is life, people break up...

the ABUSE of the steroids does lead to death, and there are plenty of case reports to prove this

The ABUSE of anything can lead to death. Even Tylenol, alchohol, even too much water at one time. And there are plenty of cases to prove this. Point it, anything you abuse can lead to death. Mute point again.
Doctors prescribe steroids all of the time. To people who have had heart attacks, to people with severe illnesses to build their system again, and so on.

However, the LEGAL issue is what matters if a bodybuilder gets busted for steroids.

True, anyone who uses steroids without a doctor's prescription in the US can get in trouble. At this time, anyone who uses ephedra also gets in trouble. Same with some andro's in California. Hell, if you smoke in Calabases, you can get in trouble. Whoa... didn't stop at the stop sign... boom... that is a $250 ticket, and you can get in trouble. Can you beleive you can get arrested in Calabasas if you smoke, and get warned to stop and you don't. I think it is a great law in that city, the kids have an outside mall to walk around and not see someone smoking smoke in their faces.

Cigarette smoking is much worse than abusing steroids, or is it???

Lets see. My dad and others have issues because of cigarettes and smoking. He had a open heart surgery two years ago, doesnt smoke anymore, and uses steroids now. Hmmm... steroids or smoking... which one did the doctors prescribe...

[tom joad]

I just find it frustarting that here you are in a position to make a statement, as an IFBB rep, against anabolic steroid abuse and the mess that it has caused to bodybuilding, but you refuse to. Instead, you make arguments that you know are flawed, but still make them. You are a smart man Bob, you have to be to get to your level of success, but seriously, use your intellect and change this sport for the positive.

Chic has admitted that he's been using steroids since his early 20s.  He owes his career to steroids.  He wouldn't have "achieved" the position that he's in without steroids.  So why do you sound surprised that Chic isn't critical of steroid use in bodybuilding?  

[wisconsinBB]

I agree with you completely. Cigarette smoking is much worse than abusing steroids, or is it??? IF more people abused anabolic steroids to the extent that people use cigarettes, the percentage of hepatocellular carcinoma, MIs, cardiomyopathies, testicular cancer, and various other horrible pathologies would sky rocket. The same way you look at people that smoke and drink excessively is the same way I view peple that abuse steroids. I just don't understand it, like smoking, it is going to cause and early and quite painful death, so I am perpelxed on why people do it?? I think a lot of it, like it is the case with smoking, is money, and a means for a few peple in the industry to profit off the misery of others. Sound very similar to class action lawsuits against tobacco companies right?

cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt

I'm not advocating the use of either!  What I am saying is from a legal standpoint, if cigarettes are legal, anabolics should be also. I am completely against parental laws.  I think all drug, prostitution, seatbelt, helmet, etc....laws are ridiculous as I believe adults should be able to make their own decisions so long as they are not DIRECTLY harming someone else.

[The Coach]

How much is the IFBB actually worth (in terms of holdings and as investments)? The only reason I am bringing this up is that are you not afraid that the federal government may come after IFBB's assets, for technically perpetuating and supporting illegal activity. It reminds me of a mafia organization, profiting off other people's misery. More importantly, as a relatively successful and intelligent human being, don't you feel ashamed and dirty for belonging to such an organization. I am not trying to attack you, from your posts you seem to be a level headed individual, so why involve yourself with such garbage.

You are in the business of taking something (bodybuilding) which is healthy, and perverting it for your own gain. You look down upon excessive drug use, but you never speak out against it, but rather distort the facts to a skewed reality, and use it to justify your profession. As more and more bodybuilders face a dismal health future, do you not feel a bit guilty about encouraging them to basically kill themselves? Making money on people's misery is bad enough as it is, but doing it full knowingly is just horrible. Doesn't it bother you even a little bit?

cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt 

Where did you get the idea that bodybuilding was healthy? Seriously

[bodybuildermdpitt]

Where did you get the idea that bodybuilding was healthy? Seriously

There are varous studies out there that prove the health benefits of bodybuilding. I really do not feel like copying and pasting them here. In fact, a recent study looked at depression and bodybuilding, and correlated it with cardiovascular events. Compared to an SSRI and placebo, 3 x a week of 40 minutes sessions of strength training was actually reduced the length of hospital stay and was statistically significant in preventing a relapse. I work as a GI surgeon, and I can tell you from my own patients, and a study I am working on, is that strength training may actually be beneficial in preventing flares of IBDs. The data right now looks very convincing, but much more analysis needs to be done. Not to go on a tangent, but a lot of it may have to do with the reduction of stress hormones, but like I said, we will see what the data pans out.

cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt

[The Coach]

"Crack kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. It lays waste both mentally and physically, destroys families, and is destructive in every way. Just because something is illegal (currently) doesn't mean it's the evil you make it out to be...there are plenty of LEGAL substances out there today far more destructive..like cigarettes and alcohol...both of which kill millions of people each year, and lead to innocent people becoming victoms as well. Last I checked, there still has yet to be one reported case of someone dying from test or deca...."

As a physician, this is the biggest myth in bodybuilding, the ABUSE of the steroids does lead to death, and there are plenty of case reports to prove this (and I will post a couple of them). Bob I don't want it to seem I am attacking you, although reading again my previous posts, I must admit it seems like I am. I just find it frustarting that here you are in a position to make a statement, as an IFBB rep, against anabolic steroid abuse and the mess that it has caused to bodybuilding, but you refuse to. Instead, you make arguments that you know are flawed, but still make them. You are a smart man Bob, you have to be to get to your level of success, but seriously, use your intellect and change this sport for the positive. How many people do you want to see die or suffer health consequences, before you stand up and do something?

"Last I checked, there still has yet to be one reported case of someone dying from test or deca...."

Here are just a couple, I hope you can sleep well at night with this new found information...

Int J Legal Med. 2007 Jan;121(1):48-53. Epub 2005 Nov 15.Click here to read

Sudden cardiac death during anabolic steroid abuse: morphologic and toxicologic findings in two fatal cases of bodybuilders.
Fineschi V, Riezzo I, Centini F, Silingardi E, Licata M, Beduschi G, Karch SB.

Institute of Forensic Pathology, University of Foggia, Ospedali Riuniti, Foggia, Italy. vfinesc@tin.it

We report two cases of sudden cardiac death (SCD) involving previously healthy bodybuilders who were chronic androgenic-anabolic steroids users. In both instances, autopsies, histology of the organs, and toxicologic screening were performed. Our findings support an emerging consensus that the effects of vigorous weight training, combined with anabolic steroid use and increased androgen sensitivity, may predispose these young men to myocardial injury and even SCD.

Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen. 2004 Jan 22;124(2):170-2.
Acute myocardial infarction in a young man who had been using androgenic anabolic steroids

Arch Pathol Lab Med. 2001 Feb;125(2):253-5.
Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac sudden death: a pathologic study.


Do you really want me to keep on going Bob... how about this scenario, a couple of 18 and 20 year old kids go to the gym see one of you pros you represent, emulate them to become the best "athletes." Given your apathy about this subject, this could not happen right??? Well ask the parents of these two children...
I will even post the abstract for you to read...


Med J Aust. 1993 Mar 1;158(5):346-8.
Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac death.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac death. We report the first two cases in Australia. They are the only reported cases in which the anabolic steroid oxymesterone has been detected. This compound has never been approved for use in Australia. CLINICAL FEATURES: Two footballers, aged 18 and 24, sustained fatal cardiac arrests while at training sessions. Both were considered fit and healthy. OUTCOME: Autopsy revealed features of a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in the 18-year-old; the 24-year-old had findings of a myocarditis. In both cases the coronary arteries were normal and there was no evidence of coronary thrombosis. Urine in both subjects contained the anabolic steroid oxymesterone. CONCLUSIONS: There are limited clinical uses for anabolic steroids but they are widely abused by athletes in attempts to alter lean body mass and strength. Acute non-fatal myocardial infarction was first reported in 1988 and fatal myocardial infarction in 1990. While a causal relationship is hard to prove, it is possible that the anabolic steroid contributed to the increase in cardiac size in the first subject and may have increased his responsiveness to catecholamines causing an arrhythmogenic event. In the second, the inflammatory changes could have provided the focus for an arrhythmia. It would appear that anabolic steroid abuse should be considered in any athlete presenting with an acute vascular event.

So you're saying that AAS is the sole reason these two players died? I find that hard to believe. While I believe that steriod abuse is rampent in bodybuilding, you have to define what is considered "abuse" in athletics. I can guaranty that it is far far less than it is in relation to bodybuilding.

I have a some of questions for you. 1. You say these kids were healthy before they died, what was the type of physical given to provide such info? 2. What was their family background? 3. Could there have been something underlying that was missed in the physical? (it happends all the time and athletes drop dead).

Look, I'll be the first to say that taken in an abusive mannor will cause problems but I have yet to see a study that steriods are the sole reason for death. I do however think that they can exasperate an already underlying problem(s).

[bodybuildermdpitt]

"The ABUSE of anything can lead to death. Even Tylenol, alchohol, even too much water at one time. And there are plenty of cases to prove this. Point it, anything you abuse can lead to death."

This is exactly my point, the IFBB encourages the abuse of drugs. These physiques are a reult of drug abuse, even Kamali has admitted that on several occaisions. I have seen some of the cycles that some of the pros and even aspiring pros take, it is obscene. I just find it deplorable that the IFBB and even you can turn a blind eye and even make money off other people's misery. Whether it is the failing health or even death of current bodybuilders (Kris Dim, Tom Prince) or the people they affect.


"Lets see. My dad and others have issues because of cigarettes and smoking. He had a open heart surgery two years ago, doesnt smoke anymore, and uses steroids now. Hmmm... steroids or smoking... which one did the doctors prescribe..."


This is a horrible example. The doctors are not perscribing steroids to prevent a relpase of lung cancer, they are perscribing steroids to rebuilt up your father's body after the devestation that lung cancer has caused. Doctor's perscribe fentanyl and oxycontin all the time to cancer patients, but you can't use its medical use to justify the use of herion and many other street opioids. Missuse and abuse of steroids are both actions encouraged by the IFBB, and that is what sickens me. All arguments aside, I wish your father and the rest of your family memebers affected by this terrible cancer the best. I too have seen firsthand the effects of lung cancer both on a patient and a family friend, and it is absolutely horrible.

 cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt

[The Coach]

There are varous studies out there that prove the health benefits of bodybuilding. I really do not feel like copying and pasting them here. In fact, a recent study looked at depression and bodybuilding, and correlated it with cardiovascular events. Compared to an SSRI and placebo, 3 x a week of 40 minutes sessions of strength training was actually reduced the length of hospital stay and was statistically significant in preventing a relapse. I work as a GI surgeon, and I can tell you from my own patients, and a study I am working on, is that strength training may actually be beneficial in preventing flares of IBDs. The data right now looks very convincing, but much more analysis needs to be done. Not to go on a tangent, but a lot of it may have to do with the reduction of stress hormones, but like I said, we will see what the data pans out.

cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt

I have that study, I believe it's somewhere on medscape.

[The Coach]

There are varous studies out there that prove the health benefits of bodybuilding. I really do not feel like copying and pasting them here. In fact, a recent study looked at depression and bodybuilding, and correlated it with cardiovascular events. Compared to an SSRI and placebo, 3 x a week of 40 minutes sessions of strength training was actually reduced the length of hospital stay and was statistically significant in preventing a relapse. I work as a GI surgeon, and I can tell you from my own patients, and a study I am working on, is that strength training may actually be beneficial in preventing flares of IBDs. The data right now looks very convincing, but much more analysis needs to be done. Not to go on a tangent, but a lot of it may have to do with the reduction of stress hormones, but like I said, we will see what the data pans out.

cheers,

bodybuildermdpitt

BTW, there is NOTHING healthy about pro bodybuilding.

[liquid_c]

"Crack kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. It lays waste both mentally and physically, destroys families, and is destructive in every way. Just because something is illegal (currently) doesn't mean it's the evil you make it out to be...there are plenty of LEGAL substances out there today far more destructive..like cigarettes and alcohol...both of which kill millions of people each year, and lead to innocent people becoming victoms as well. Last I checked, there still has yet to be one reported case of someone dying from test or deca...."

As a physician, this is the biggest myth in bodybuilding, the ABUSE of the steroids does lead to death, and there are plenty of case reports to prove this (and I will post a couple of them). Bob I don't want it to seem I am attacking you, although reading again my previous posts, I must admit it seems like I am. I just find it frustarting that here you are in a position to make a statement, as an IFBB rep, against anabolic steroid abuse and the mess that it has caused to bodybuilding, but you refuse to. Instead, you make arguments that you know are flawed, but still make them. You are a smart man Bob, you have to be to get to your level of success, but seriously, use your intellect and change this sport for the positive. How many people do you want to see die or suffer health consequences, before you stand up and do something?

"Last I checked, there still has yet to be one reported case of someone dying from test or deca...."

Here are just a couple, I hope you can sleep well at night with this new found information...

Int J Legal Med. 2007 Jan;121(1):48-53. Epub 2005 Nov 15.Click here to read

Sudden cardiac death during anabolic steroid abuse: morphologic and toxicologic findings in two fatal cases of bodybuilders.
Fineschi V, Riezzo I, Centini F, Silingardi E, Licata M, Beduschi G, Karch SB.

Institute of Forensic Pathology, University of Foggia, Ospedali Riuniti, Foggia, Italy. vfinesc@tin.it

We report two cases of sudden cardiac death (SCD) involving previously healthy bodybuilders who were chronic androgenic-anabolic steroids users. In both instances, autopsies, histology of the organs, and toxicologic screening were performed. Our findings support an emerging consensus that the effects of vigorous weight training, combined with anabolic steroid use and increased androgen sensitivity, may predispose these young men to myocardial injury and even SCD.

Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen. 2004 Jan 22;124(2):170-2.
Acute myocardial infarction in a young man who had been using androgenic anabolic steroids

Arch Pathol Lab Med. 2001 Feb;125(2):253-5.
Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac sudden death: a pathologic study.


Do you really want me to keep on going Bob... how about this scenario, a couple of 18 and 20 year old kids go to the gym see one of you pros you represent, emulate them to become the best "athletes." Given your apathy about this subject, this could not happen right??? Well ask the parents of these two children...
I will even post the abstract for you to read...


Med J Aust. 1993 Mar 1;158(5):346-8.
Anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac death.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between anabolic steroid abuse and cardiac death. We report the first two cases in Australia. They are the only reported cases in which the anabolic steroid oxymesterone has been detected. This compound has never been approved for use in Australia. CLINICAL FEATURES: Two footballers, aged 18 and 24, sustained fatal cardiac arrests while at training sessions. Both were considered fit and healthy. OUTCOME: Autopsy revealed features of a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in the 18-year-old; the 24-year-old had findings of a myocarditis. In both cases the coronary arteries were normal and there was no evidence of coronary thrombosis. Urine in both subjects contained the anabolic steroid oxymesterone. CONCLUSIONS: There are limited clinical uses for anabolic steroids but they are widely abused by athletes in attempts to alter lean body mass and strength. Acute non-fatal myocardial infarction was first reported in 1988 and fatal myocardial infarction in 1990. While a causal relationship is hard to prove, it is possible that the anabolic steroid contributed to the increase in cardiac size in the first subject and may have increased his responsiveness to catecholamines causing an arrhythmogenic event. In the second, the inflammatory changes could have provided the focus for an arrhythmia. It would appear that anabolic steroid abuse should be considered in any athlete presenting with an acute vascular event.

People die ALL the time from SCD.  Heart attacks/heart disease is the leading cause of death.  I guarantee you 99.9% of SCD victims never touched a steroid in their life.  The above is just speculation.  Yes it is POSSIBLE, but does not even come close to proving anything...

[Earl1972]

haha look at all the geeks that have a problem with steroid use yet post on a bodybuilding forum

E

[dearth]

hate to break it to you but - no one use/abuses illegal steroids more than bodybuilders.

trying to mention other sports in terms of drug use is a joke, then again you are trying to justify your illegal activities.

hope this helps.

Do you respect footbal players? How about basketball or baseball players? How about any athlete competing in pro sports today...the MAJORITY of which use steroids, or GH, or some other type of performance enhancing drug? If you believe this to be false, you more niave than I thought.

[onlyme]

Couldn't disagree more...and using crack as an example only illustrates that you have to go to that extreme to try and prove your analogy.

Crack kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. It lays waste both mentally and physically, destroys families, and is destructive in every way. Just because something is illegal (currently) doesn't mean it's the evil you make it out to be...there are plenty of LEGAL substances out there today far more destructive..like cigarettes and alcohol...both of which kill millions of people each year, and lead to innocent people becoming victoms as well. Last I checked, there still has yet to be one reported case of someone dying from test or deca....

Do you respect footbal players? How about basketball or baseball players? How about any athlete competing in pro sports today...the MAJORITY of which use steroids, or GH, or some other type of performance enhancing drug? If you believe this to be false, you more niave than I thought.

Your comparison is so way off.  Let me teach you something.  There is "use" and their is "abuse"  Really.  Write that down and keep it in your pocket so next time you won't look so dumb when you compare BB to other sports in relation to steroids.  You along with EVERY pro ABUSES steroids.  It is that simple.  You can not deny it or refute it.  You agree 100% and you know it.  Anything else you might say is just your way of accepting it without an answer.  And I don't even think if you call Manion he can help you with an answer. 

[Chick]

Your comparison is so way off.  Let me teach you something.  There is "use" and their is "abuse"  Really.  Write that down and keep it in your pocket so next time you won't look so dumb when you compare BB to other sports in relation to steroids.  You along with EVERY pro ABUSES steroids.  It is that simple.  You can not deny it or refute it.  You agree 100% and you know it.  Anything else you might say is just your way of accepting it without an answer.  And I don't even think if you call Manion he can help you with an answer. 

So, did you use sterids in your day, Keith. or abuse them?

[Disgusted]

"Here are just a couple, I hope you can sleep well at night with this new found information...

Sup bro? OK not to start a long debate but these so called studies do not in any way constitute proof that these guys died from steroids. Also, one or two? of them died while training. This actually happens more often than reported for various reason. Sometimes due to dehydration or pushing a person too hard and the heart can go into a bad rythm. A lot of athletes who have never taken steroids have an enlarged heart. As far as I know (I could be wrong) there is not one study that shows absolute proof that steroids have ever caused a death. Only speculation. Seems like when a Dr can not find any reason for a death they will assume steroids were the cause simply because no other causer can be found. I find this very irresponsible on the part of the Dr and lazy too.

[onlyme]

So, did you use sterids in your day, Keith. or abuse them?

Yep.  I have no problem saying it.  Nothing like a BB but I did 1cc of Test cyp everyday for 6 months.  And I would have no way done as well as I did unless I took them.  Every armwrestler takes them.  No matter how much they weigh (pros at least).  I didn't at the beginning and was still beating people solely on my strength.  SOmeone asked me what I was on I said nothing and they told me I needed to go on them and I would beat everyone.  SO I did.  Hey I trained with Ray Mentzer and Benny Pooda.  I had to take them.  I have not even come close to taking them again.  IN 1994 or 95 or so I still incline benched 505 and I was totally roid free for almost 10 years.  So I guess I abused them for 6 months, I have no problem with that.

[Moosejay]

Tiffany and Bob dated quite seriously here in Venice, California. Tiffany was always quite nice and cool. As such is life, people break up...

The ABUSE of anything can lead to death. Even Tylenol, alchohol, even too much water at one time. And there are plenty of cases to prove this. Point it, anything you abuse can lead to death. Mute point again.
Doctors prescribe steroids all of the time. To people who have had heart attacks, to people with severe illnesses to build their system again, and so on.

True, anyone who uses steroids without a doctor's prescription in the US can get in trouble. At this time, anyone who uses ephedra also gets in trouble. Same with some andro's in California. Hell, if you smoke in Calabases, you can get in trouble. Whoa... didn't stop at the stop sign... boom... that is a $250 ticket, and you can get in trouble. Can you beleive you can get arrested in Calabasas if you smoke, and get warned to stop and you don't. I think it is a great law in that city, the kids have an outside mall to walk around and not see someone smoking smoke in their faces.
 

Lets see. My dad and others have issues because of cigarettes and smoking. He had a open heart surgery two years ago, doesnt smoke anymore, and uses steroids now. Hmmm... steroids or smoking... which one did the doctors prescribe...

Are those cortico steroids you are referring to for your dad?

And, ephedrine use is legal. You just can't sell it in a weight-loss preparation

[Kegdrainer]

This is actually Tiffany Remy (sp?) who, along with her ex hubby, used to own the Powerhouse Gym in East Lansing, Michigan in 2001-2002. Very hot and pretty cool chick.

this is the girl bob smacked around when they were together.  prove me wrong

[Chick]

this is the girl bob smacked around when they were together.  prove me wrong

LOL...you have quite the imagination

[Chick]

Yep.  I have no problem saying it.  Nothing like a BB but I did 1cc of Test cyp everyday for 6 months.  And I would have no way done as well as I did unless I took them.  Every armwrestler takes them.  No matter how much they weigh (pros at least).  I didn't at the beginning and was still beating people solely on my strength.  SOmeone asked me what I was on I said nothing and they told me I needed to go on them and I would beat everyone.  SO I did.  Hey I trained with Ray Mentzer and Benny Pooda.  I had to take them.  I have not even come close to taking them again.  IN 1994 or 95 or so I still incline benched 505 and I was totally roid free for almost 10 years.  So I guess I abused them for 6 months, I have no problem with that.

So you agree with what the guy was saying..that using crack and steroids is the same? Do you feel it was the same, or should be looked at in the same manner?

[Beener]

Anyone who says steroids ruin bodybuilding are a bunch of fuckin guys. How can steroids ruin bodybuilding when they ARE bodybuilding? Personally, I want to see bigger and bigger pros every fucking year. I dont want to see a 200 lb jay cutler, or a 210 lb ronnie coleman, i want these motherfuckers tippin teh scales at 300 lbs god damnit and if they have to shoot slin after every workout, so be it. god damn you're all a buncha fuckin pussies,

HARDEN THE FUCK UP

[what:]

this is the girl bob smacked around when they were together.  prove me wrong

I think that Tiffany and him are still friends FWIW.

[onlyme]

So you agree with what the guy was saying..that using crack and steroids is the same? Do you feel it was the same, or should be looked at in the same manner?

I don't know what guy you are talking about.  I don't read half the stuff.  If you are asking me if I think using steroids and crack is the same I say no.  Should it be looked at the same, no.  Crack I think is very serious and nothing can ever come out good doing crack.  NOTHING.  You don't have to absue crack to kill yourself.  Over a long period of time I think it will kill you.  DOing crack makes you look sickly.  Doing any drug like that is stupid.  At least steroids if done properly and not overdone like the pros BB do I think is also okay.  I don't have any issue with guys who take steroids.  I have a problem with the guys who do them and abuse them and still say they don't do them.  At least own up to it.  And if the steroids didn't do as much as everyone knows they do, then why do them at all.