Author Topic: How does Insulin work for cutting???  (Read 26987 times)

Mega Man

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How does Insulin work for cutting???
« on: May 07, 2008, 12:08:51 AM »
I know some use insulin for bulking and building mass...

But How is it used for cutting? Like to get into ketosis? Anyone have any links or info to share?

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2008, 12:07:23 PM »
I know some use insulin for bulking and building mass...

But How is it used for cutting? Like to get into ketosis? Anyone have any links or info to share?


2 i.u humalog every 2 hours the day before and you should be deep into ketosis by the time you wake up in the am the next day.

don't fuck around with this if you don't have to. take the 3 days and let your body slip in ketosis gradually.
b

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2008, 06:07:23 PM »

2 i.u humalog every 2 hours the day before and you should be deep into ketosis by the time you wake up in the am the next day.

don't fuck around with this if you don't have to. take the 3 days and let your body slip in ketosis gradually.

thanks for the reply....

Can you be a little more specific about the dosing. Like at what time would you start the first injection of the insulin?...and how many shots all together would you take?

I read in Muscular developement that the chance of you dieing in your sleep or all the horror stories people read on message boards is B.S. He said in the article that it would take an extreme mega dose of insulin to kill you.

I understand insulin is risky and not something to take lightly.....I just want the info, the real scoop...so I can make the decisions myself.

no one

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2008, 06:13:21 PM »
thanks for the reply....

Can you be a little more specific about the dosing. Like at what time would you start the first injection of the insulin?...and how many shots all together would you take?

I read in Muscular developement that the chance of you dieing in your sleep or all the horror stories people read on message boards is B.S. He said in the article that it would take an extreme mega dose of insulin to kill you.

I understand insulin is risky and not something to take lightly.....I just want the info, the real scoop...so I can make the decisions myself.



listen, no offense- i don't like giving out exact information involving this compound in the manner in which you wish to run it.

it is clear insulin is new to you, and i would be hesitant to dispense advise using this compound even if you were considering using it off season, let alone using it to get into keto.

i answered to satisfy a curiosity i thought you had, not to outline how to use it. that's why i didn't go into specifics.

you want my advise? be smart and take the three days to drop into keto naturally.

(edit: jesus, you haven't even done a cycle yet and you want to use insulin to get into ketosis...?)







b

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2008, 09:03:55 PM »


listen, no offense- i don't like giving out exact information involving this compound in the manner in which you wish to run it.

it is clear insulin is new to you, and i would be hesitant to dispense advise using this compound even if you were considering using it off season, let alone using it to get into keto.

i answered to satisfy a curiosity i thought you had, not to outline how to use it. that's why i didn't go into specifics.

you want my advise? be smart and take the three days to drop into keto naturally.

(edit: jesus, you haven't even done a cycle yet and you want to use insulin to get into ketosis...?)









None taken...... ;D

I'm on my first cycle now...and when I'm done I'm gonna cut up.....

Taking insulin is not rocket science.......I'm sure I can do it without killing myself.

I'm a smart guy, I can handle it with the right research. I'm gonna buy the glucometer and everything. And research it some more.

Thanks for the info and advice you did give me though. You got me in the right direction. I totaly understand where you are comming from.

Just so you know I'm not the type of dumb ass that buys liquid chems from a research lab...then makes a post asking if I should inject the liquid adex intra-musular or sub-Q ;D

If I do it...Im gonna do it right. ;)

Arnold jr

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2008, 09:47:36 PM »
Bro, "no one" is right, you don't need insulin to get into ketosis...not by any means. In fact, it is completely unnecessary and not really prudent IMO. He's also right, more then likely it will only take about 3days of dieting in which you only take in somewhere in the sub 50g of carbs per day. For some it may take a little longer, but more then likely only a day or two more.

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2008, 09:58:57 PM »
I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.

But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.

But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.

But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2008, 10:57:56 PM »
Okay....I found two good articles

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=57432

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/hardcore.htm#part4

Extreme Ketogenic Dieting
by Grendel

Perhaps one of the most effective ways to lose body fat is through low carbohydrate dieting. Once considered a fad diet, this way of eating is gaining tremendous popularity in mainstream culture. Championed by Dr. Robert Atkins, this type of diet is being used by millions of Americans to lose weight. Atkins’ diet greatly restricted carbohydrates and appears to be successful for more sedentary lifestyles. However, athletes and bodybuilders will find that Atkins’ diet is not ideal; without carbohydrates performance deteriorates and ultimately muscle mass is lost. This does not mean that these diets are not useful to bodybuilders, it simply means that the standard low carbohydrate diet had to be revised to suit the needs of athletes.


Bodybuilders have long been aware of this somewhat radical concept of low carbohydrate dieting, more technically known as ketogenic dieting. Daniel Duchaine, in his seminal work BodyOpus, outlines the evolution of the diet. Essentially, research established that the body could switch metabolic pathways and use fats for energy. Athletes discovered, mostly through trial and error, that eating extremely low amounts of carbohydrates allowed them to drop a great deal of weight and water. They combined with this carbohydrate loading, a period of eating almost exclusively carbohydrates. The end result was astonishing, a diet that facilitates fat-loss without any appreciable loss of lean body mass.


Duchaine, DiPasquali (author of The Anabolic Diet), and Macdonald (author of The Ketogenic Diet) all present a similar dietary approach. Carbohydrates are restricted to the point where the body enters a state of ketosis where fat is burned as the prime energy source. To understand the biochemistry of ketogenic dieting we will start with a discussion of ketones. A ketone is simply a fractured fat and has a very unique advantage over normal fats. The brain will not use fats for fuel, but will readily accept ketones. In fact, once your body reaches a ketogenic state (when there are more ketones than glucose in the blood), ketones become the body’s primary source of energy. For the body to switch into a state of ketosis blood glucose levels must drop to around 50-60 mg/dl and insulin must drop almost to zero.


This drop to ketosis is accomplished by restricting intake of carbohydrates (and using drugs) that result in a drop of blood sugar and a depletion of liver stores of glycogen. After a period (usually five to seven days) of ketosis, the body is shocked with a carbohydrate loading phase. This influx of carbohydrates causes muscles starved and depleted of glycogen to respond by storing far more glycogen than they would normally. This process is known as glycogen super compensation. The average athlete will sustain about 85 millimoles of glycogen per kilogram of skeletal muscle. It's been proven that trained athletes can achieve levels of at least 175 millimoles through glycogen super compensation. This period of glycogen super compensation will result in muscle growth and is the reason why this diet is so well suited for bodybuilders. Almost any other kind of diet will result in some loss of lean body mass.


Within this particular camp, there are different philosophies as how to properly eat. Duchaine advocates a low fat carbohydrate loading phase, while DiPasquali makes an argument for a higher fat loading phase. Each method has its merits. Ketogenic diets are very adaptable, easily tailored to the individual. In the mainstream diet culture, the restraints on Ketogenic diets become relaxed as more and more weight is lost, until a maintenance level is reached. This is not the sort of dieting that suits bodybuilders who have more exactly requirements.


The purpose of this article is not to rehash the information already widely published. The introduction has the sole purpose of briefing someone on the basics of the diet. If you need to know more, read the books mentioned in the introduction. If you are already familiar with the diet (as most bodybuilders are) then go on to the next section.


Ketosis and Drugs

To enter ketosis blood sugar must decline. This can be accomplished through simple carbohydrate depravation. But keeping carbohydrate intake under 15 grams per day the body will enter (in about 3 days on average) the desired state. This is too long for our purposes. Heavy exercise, which depletes blood sugar and stored glycogen, will speed up this process. However, the addition of insulin or insulin like drugs will assist in driving down blood-sugar levels and will allow the athlete to enter a state of ketosis much more rapidly.


Using insulin is perhaps the most effective way to quickly enter ketosis, but involves using insulin in the most dangerous of ways, in the complete absence of carbohydrates. The risk is that your body will enter hypoglycemic shock, which leads to coma and death. Consequently, the information in this section should only be utilized by the most advanced athlete, someone who's intelligent and responsible enough not to end up killing themselves.


As mentioned previously levels below 50-60 mg/dl are indicative of ketosis. Knowing this, select the most rapid acting insulin (refer to Insulin: The Most Anabolic Hormone), which is Humalog insulin. This drug begins to act in 15 minutes and is out of your system in about 2-4 hours. After your last meal of carbohydrates, begin injections of 2 iu's of Humalog insulin every 2 hours. Before each injection monitor your blood sugar levels. This will require the purchase of a glucometer and the associated strips. It's imperative that you are constantly monitoring your blood sugar; this isn't a process that can be learned through trial and error. When you have reached the blood sugar range we are shooting for, stop your injections. Remember to stay awake for at least 3 hours after you last shot to monitor yourself for signs of hypoglycemia. Anyone attempting this method should read the Insulin article in the back issues of Anabolic Extreme so that they understand more about insulin. Do not attempt to use insulin without a blood sugar monitor.


For those of you unsure about using injectable insulin, oral insulin agonists are another excellent choice to get into ketosis quickly. Metformin Hydrochloride (trade name Glucophage) is the preferred drug. Oral Metformin hydrochloride belongs to a class of antidiabetic agents called biguanides. It is used to treat type-2 diabetes (previously known as non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus). Metformin lowers blood glucose levels by decreasing glucose production by the liver and increasing tissue responsiveness to insulin. Phenformin can also be used and is technically a more potent drug. For our purposes Metformin is ideal. In addition to dropping your blood sugar into a level that will start ketosis, Metformin has other ancillary benefits. By controlling insulin levels, it limits hunger. Additionally, Metformin increases insulin sensitivity, which is good considering that most people are insulin insensitive. This insulin insensitivity causes their bodies to over-produce insulin, which causes weight gain and can eventually lead into a host of health problems. That makes the use of Metformin all the more potent a dieting resource; dosages of 2000 to 3000 mg per day taken in divided dosages with each meal are sufficient to rapidly induce ketosis. Oral insulin antagonists should be used until ketosis is reached, but may be continued to assist with controlling hunger and keeping insulin sensitivity high. For those people unwilling or unable to obtain Metformin, vanadyl sulfate may be used in its place. Vanadyl sulfate, along with chromium, serve as weaker forms of insulin antagonists. They will help in dropping blood sugar and may control hunger pangs, however, as should be expected, they are nowhere near as powerful of glucose disposal agents.


Active thyroid hormone (T3) is a useful addition to almost any diet. Ketogenic diets have a method of preserving thyroid function using reverse T3 so you will have less metabolic shutdown of the thyroid axis from a ketogenic diet. An advantage to using T3 with such a diet is that you are already going to be consuming more protein, which will help offset the potential catabolism of the T3. Clenbuterol, or ephedrine, is also useful on this diet for its thermogenic effects. The only diet drug that should not be used with a ketogenic diet, if it's used at all, is DNP. The method of action of DNP makes it extremely dangerous to a low-carbohydrate dieter that has already depleted stores of glycogen.


Glycogen Super Compensation and Drugs

Just as can benefit from using pharmaceuticals to speed up the descent into ketosis, we can also use them to more effectively glycogen load. We can do this through two methods, either through the direct use of exogenous insulin, or through the use of the insulin agonists we've previously discussed. Maximum glucose disposal is only achieved in the presence of large amounts of insulin, something we can obviously facilitate through controlled insulin injections.


The danger of using insulin during glycogen super compensation is far less than during the ketogenic phase, simply because of the enormous amounts of carbohydrates that are being consumed. However, if insulin is going to be used during this phase, it's imperative that the athletes follow Duchaine's recommendations for a low-fat carb loading phase. This will ensure that the fat lost during the previous week will not be regained during this period.

........................ ........................ ........................ ...................

Here is the second article

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/hardcore.htm#part4

4. A controversial secret for getting into fat burning ketosis faster with Humulin R-8 hours instead of 3 days-and how you can get it!

There is a hardcore trick the pro's use that forces your body into ketosis within only 8 to 12 hours allowing more time for the body to burn fatty acid stores before your carb-up stage. The trick, originally brought to my attention by Dan Duchaine, is the use of Humulin R injectible insulin. Humulin R insulin is important compared to other types of insulin because it reaches its peak effect in 2 hours, causing a quick metabolic shift into ketosis. Using small amounts of insulin will cause your blood glucose to drop, in a quick and controlled manner. Glucose levels hit about 50 mg/ml and force your body into ketosis at a much faster rate. Insulin is one of the most controversial drugs used in bodybuilding today. The reality is that if you slip up and use too much insulin, you could enter a hypoglycemic coma, which could cause irreversible damage to your body and in some cases prove fatal. Please note that that the following information is highly controversial and provided solely for informational purposes.

Despite the controversy surrounding its use insulin is one of the easiest substances in bodybuilding to obtain legally. It is available over the counter in most U.S. states and costs between $20-$30 in local pharmacies and is even cheaper through U.S. mail order pharmacies. In most U.S. states a prescription is required to purchase and possess the insulin syringes used to administer the drug. This problem can be avoided by ordering syringes from mail order sources. A person using insulin for bodybuilding purposes should face no real legal ramifications. The only problems that can arise is getting caught possessing syringes with out a script or actually selling insulin for any purpose other than the treatment of diabetes.

A glucometer, to display your blood glucose levels, is highly recommended while attempting to use insulin safely. A glucometer costs around $100. It is possible to use insulin without a glucometer if your are cautious but it is not recommended. You will also need to purchase insulin syringes that hold up to 100 units. Do not use regular syringes. You will need to measure out precise amounts of insulin, between 2-3 units, which cannot be measured accurately using a regular syringe.

Here's how it works:
After you eat your last carb meal on Sunday night, you will need to take a reading on the glucometer to check your blood glucose level. The body's normal blood glucose level is usually between 80mg/ml and 120 mg/ml. At this point, draw 2-3 units of insulin into a syringe and inject it subcutaneously into a fold of skin. After waiting between two or three hours, take another reading with the glucometer. You blood glucose level will have dropped since your last measurement. Again inject 2 units of insulin and measure your blood glucose level around 2 hours after your injection. Repeat this cycle until your blood glucose level is between 55 mg/ml and 65 mg/ml. When your blood glucose is at this level, you will descend into ketosis while you sleep. ALWAYS REMEMBER TO STAY AWAKE FOR AT LEAST 2 HOURS AFTER AN INSULIN INJECTION. The last thing you want is to fall asleep after an injection and have your blood glucose drop to a dangerously low level while you sleep. You could fall into a hypoglycemic coma and no one will recognize the symptoms until it is too late.

Upon waking in the morning, measure your urine with the Ketostix. Measuring ketones in the morning is necessary because the sticks show only the unused level of ketones in your body and should show trace to moderate ketone levels. If you measure them in the afternoon the numbers will not be as accurate, because most of the ketones that were produced will have been used by your body as fuel.

If you do not have access to a glucometer, you will need to be much more cautious when attempting to use insulin. Since you will not be able to accurately measure your blood glucose, only small amounts of insulin should be used. You can start out with 2 units of insulin after your carb meal on Sunday. After that you should not use anymore than 1-1 1/2 units of insulin every two hours. A total of two or three injections should be made and then you should measure with the ketostix upon waking in the morning. If you still have not entered ketosis, use insulin injections of 1-1 1/2 units every two hours until you enter ketosis. This way takes longer, but you should enter ketosis within 18-20 hours.


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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 10:59:28 PM »
even without ALA or slin i get into ketosis by end of day one...and i can eat abotu 60-70 grams of trace carbs and stay in keto too.

everybodys different

Arnold jr

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 05:38:20 AM »
I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.

But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.

But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.

But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.
Actually after a few days of being in ketosis you should begin to feel really good. Your energy levels should be even throughout the day. No, not through the roof, but not in the gutter either...just constant and steady.

As far as do people do what you're asking...yes they do. There are people out there that will do just about anything. There are people out there that smoke crack every day, and guess what....they typically lose weight. Ever seen a fat crack head?

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 07:25:41 AM »
insulin for cutting ?

goddamn it people....
you are asking about ketosis and everything so maybe you read a lot of palumbo's stuff. He is the first one to say: don't use insulin while dieting down


Vet

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 08:44:26 AM »
insulin for cutting ?

goddamn it people....
you are asking about ketosis and everything so maybe you read a lot of palumbo's stuff. He is the first one to say: don't use insulin while dieting down



I'm still hung up on insulin inducing ketosis. 

Stavios

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 10:04:44 AM »
I'm still hung up on insulin inducing ketosis. 

people are retarded  ;D
is it so hard to wait 2 or 3 days anyway ?!

no one

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 12:13:18 PM »
I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.

But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.

But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.

But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.

only the first three days of getting into ketosis are difficult.

once you are in, the diet is very easy. i ran a ketosis diet for 12 weeks, and 5 weeks straight without having any carb source or an advocated re-reed.

once you are in i found there were zero cravings, until your bf gets low enough that your body makes demands for food energy.

take your time. this is a marathon, not a sprint.
b

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2008, 12:01:57 AM »
people are retarded  ;D
is it so hard to wait 2 or 3 days anyway ?!

 ::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ???

The CKD diet is perfect when used with insulin......

if you can get into ketosis instantly...then you will have 5 full days in ketosis before carb up the last two days.

But if you did it naturaly....it would take three days to get into ketosis...then in 2 more days you would already be ready to carb up for the weekend!

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2008, 10:51:55 AM »
not....worth....it...... .

that's just my opinion

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2008, 04:36:37 PM »
Okay....say I take the advice of Arnold Jr. and others that say just get into ketosis naturaly......

Would you do the same regimen as if you used insulin.....like load carbs from friday night to sunday night...then go back to zero to low carbs from sunday night to friday night???.....

Or since it takes longer to get into ketosis naturaly, would you stay low carb for longer......like say go zero or low carb for 8 days then carb load for 2 days and keep repeating that cycle. I got this idea from it takes 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly....then add 5 days that you normaly go low carb while in ketosis....when you use insulin to get into ketosis. This way you would be low carb in ketosis the same time as if you used insulin.

so my logic tells me if you

use insulin

carb load - 2 days
Zero carb - 5 days

naturaly

Carb load - 2 days
zero carb - 8 days
repeat cycle

Does this make sense? Cause your body is in ketosis the same amount of time and you carb load the same as well. It just takes an extra 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly?


Vet

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2008, 09:22:21 PM »
I'm still hung up on the exogenous administration of insulin inducing ketosis. 

no one

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2008, 12:18:27 AM »
Okay....say I take the advice of Arnold Jr. and others that say just get into ketosis naturaly......

Would you do the same regimen as if you used insulin.....like load carbs from friday night to sunday night...then go back to zero to low carbs from sunday night to friday night???.....

Or since it takes longer to get into ketosis naturaly, would you stay low carb for longer......like say go zero or low carb for 8 days then carb load for 2 days and keep repeating that cycle. I got this idea from it takes 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly....then add 5 days that you normaly go low carb while in ketosis....when you use insulin to get into ketosis. This way you would be low carb in ketosis the same time as if you used insulin.

so my logic tells me if you

use insulin

carb load - 2 days
Zero carb - 5 days

naturaly

Carb load - 2 days
zero carb - 8 days
repeat cycle

Does this make sense? Cause your body is in ketosis the same amount of time and you carb load the same as well. It just takes an extra 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly?



you don't have to re-carb. you can run keto for as many days as you feel comfortable. i found i lost more bf when i didn't reintroduce carbs into the diet. the only time during the diet cravingsbecome an issue, and energy levels become an issue, is when you have depleted most of your body's own fat stores. why throw yourself out of ketosis if you don't have to. if you feel your stalling your metabolism out, then re-introduce them. if your still running hot, then why bother?
b

Mega Man

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2008, 12:39:30 AM »
you don't have to re-carb. you can run keto for as many days as you feel comfortable. i found i lost more bf when i didn't reintroduce carbs into the diet. the only time during the diet cravingsbecome an issue, and energy levels become an issue, is when you have depleted most of your body's own fat stores. why throw yourself out of ketosis if you don't have to. if you feel your stalling your metabolism out, then re-introduce them. if your still running hot, then why bother?

So you don't lose hard earned muscle and your muscles stay fuller

Mr. Jingles

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2008, 07:10:01 AM »
Mega Man!!!

It takes years of training and lots of experience using gear. You should cycle through at least a few years of AS use prior to ever going down that road. It seems like your hell bent on doing it so please be careful.

Peace


no one

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2008, 09:17:52 AM »
So you don't lose hard earned muscle and your muscles stay fuller

and tell me why you'd lose muscle if you don't re-carb, please.
b

Vet

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2008, 09:24:09 AM »
and tell me why you'd lose muscle if you don't re-carb, please.

You really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you? 

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2008, 09:45:00 AM »
You really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you? 

unlike you, as we have all seen who thinks he's knows everything, what i speak of comes from experience, not what i think i know.

i am here to help offer real world experience and application of ketogenic dieting, unlike you who relies on spewing $2 words he read in his college school texts in an effort to look like he has an idea of what he is talking about, eventhough he has little experience. - tell us all again how icn galenkias are fake and any effects related to them are placebo, idiot.

i have forgotten more about ketogenic dieting, hormones, insulin usage and contest prep than you will ever know, sunshine. any time you wish to talk real world application step up- i won't be hard to find.

in the mean time, i suggest you run a ketogenic diet for yourself- and not just regurgitate what you read online and then come back and answer the question i posed to mega man.

until then, kindly fuck off.

thanks for coming out.
b

no one

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Re: How does Insulin work for cutting???
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2008, 09:48:55 AM »
i should have searched your post history earlier, i could have saved myself 2 minutes writing what i wrote above and arguing with an imbicile.

I almost never post in this forum (I don't juice)


all books, eh sport?

keep up the good work, sparky.
b