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Author Topic: Zach 'n' Hurley, back atcha.  (Read 6549 times)
MisterMagoo
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« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2008, 06:32:32 PM »

i'm keeping the collar, yes. it'll be impossible to "train" with a harness, from what i've read. of course, there's also a school of thought apparently that says dogs pull MORE with a collar because it's on their necks (as per that video). that said, if he's impossible to take care of with the harness, the collar goes back on until he settles down. i think of it like a prize for being well-behaved.  Smiley

of course, on the flipside, one thing i've read on bullies is that they're likely to fight a lot more than most. i noticed this when the one time i tried to clip his nails and he was not up for it. he fought to the point that he threw up a little, and all i got was one paw done (he's gotten MUCH better since then). if he's going to put up that kind of a fight with something around his neck, then i'm going to have a problem on my hands.

at the end of the day i think it's going to be a trial. maybe he'll take right to it, maybe he won't. maybe the lack of pressure on his throat will help him be more receptive to things like "don't run if i don't want you to" and maybe he WILL need the collar. i suppose i'll be playing it by ear.

trust me, my man, i don't take anything as offense when it comes to animal advice. i recognize that all i know comes mostly from reading, so it's always good to get some advice and tips.
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« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2008, 06:44:32 PM »

i'm keeping the collar, yes. it'll be impossible to "train" with a harness, from what i've read. of course, there's also a school of thought apparently that says dogs pull MORE with a collar because it's on their necks (as per that video). that said, if he's impossible to take care of with the harness, the collar goes back on until he settles down. i think of it like a prize for being well-behaved.  Smiley

of course, on the flipside, one thing i've read on bullies is that they're likely to fight a lot more than most. i noticed this when the one time i tried to clip his nails and he was not up for it. he fought to the point that he threw up a little, and all i got was one paw done (he's gotten MUCH better since then). if he's going to put up that kind of a fight with something around his neck, then i'm going to have a problem on my hands.

at the end of the day i think it's going to be a trial. maybe he'll take right to it, maybe he won't. maybe the lack of pressure on his throat will help him be more receptive to things like "don't run if i don't want you to" and maybe he WILL need the collar. i suppose i'll be playing it by ear.

trust me, my man, i don't take anything as offense when it comes to animal advice. i recognize that all i know comes mostly from reading, so it's always good to get some advice and tips.

I've never ever heard that about the pulling because it is around their neck thing.  Ever.  Sounds like a marketing ploy.  There may be a 'school of thought' for that, I've just never heard it.  I've personally never seen a dog wearing a harness who wasn't pulling. 

My thing with harnesses is, there is no correction tool when training.  How can you correct a dog with a harness on?
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« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2008, 06:54:29 PM »

My thing with harnesses is, there is no correction tool when training.  How can you correct a dog with a harness on?

wouldn't you be "correcting" him by restraining him from movement when he pulls, but allowing him some moving space when he's behaving? i don't see why "correction" is indelibly tied to doing something that hurts. sounds to me like the school of thought that says the only way to house train a dog is to rub his nose in his own shit when he goes in the house.
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2008, 07:36:39 PM »

wouldn't you be "correcting" him by restraining him from movement when he pulls, but allowing him some moving space when he's behaving? i don't see why "correction" is indelibly tied to doing something that hurts. sounds to me like the school of thought that says the only way to house train a dog is to rub his nose in his own shit when he goes in the house.

You restraining him from movement is creating the sensation that is causing him to pull, you are just feeding the reaction.  If he pulls and you pull back, he pulls harder.  In dogs with strong working drives, if they are pulling with a harness on, and you are pulling back...why would they stop?  That is work.  They love it. There is nothing about a harness that is able to correct a dog.  People buy them because their dogs pull on the leash, and they are too fucking lazy to train them, and they figure 'Hey at least he isn't choking his self to death, he is just pulling on the harness'.  Most of the time when people buy harnesses for dogs with these issues, it just gets worse.  Would they rather pull against a choker collar or pull against a harness?  Unless you train them not to, they are gonna do it either way.  So that said, if the dog is determined to pull, what way do you think he'd rather have it?  People who buy harnesses are settling.

 For a dog like a bulldog, and any dog really, choke collars and prong collars are not designed to create 'pain'.  They are made to give an awkward and uncomfortable feeling that is supposed to be used to teach the dog right and wrong.  Of course I can't sit here and go "well it doesnt hurt/displeasure/annoy/whatever them", I'm not them, I don't know that. Most obedience trainers with a brain would not even let someone into their class unless they were willing to use a choker/greyhound/prong on their dog.  A harness gives you no way to quickly react to an undesired behavior, and even if you were to devise a way to correct a dog wearing a harness, it would be many seconds after the use of quickly popping a choker collar.

No one is advocating to 'hurt' your dog.  I don't understand how using a training collar, namely a choker collar, which is probably(very very likely) the 1# most recommended form of a collar for training purposes...is akin in any way to rubbing a dogs nose in shit.  I don't see how you could make that analogy, or even attempt to support it with any factual basis.  "Correction" is indelibly tied to doing something that will get your dogs attention and let it know what it did was wrong in the most humane way possible.

That lady in the video saying "this to them, is not resistance" is fucking retarded.  If according to her as 'theory' suggests, pressure on the neck makes them tend to 'pull alot', then I guess all these dogs are working with the wrong apparatus. 

Harnesses are the safest way for a dog to pull something.  COULD you train a dog using a harness?  Of course you COULD, but that depends alot on the temperament of the dog.

PS-  If your dog shits in the house, and you catch him in the act, you say ah ah ah scoop him up and run him to wherever he can go, and when he does, praise him like he just won the pulitzer.  If you don't catch him in the act, there is nothing you can do.  Clean it up and move on.  Rubbing a dogs nose in shit is an excellent way for it to lose its confidence, bring on a general sense of fear towards you, and a great way for it to develop coprophagia.  That is about it.


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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2008, 10:49:24 PM »

i'm a little fatigued, but i'll respond to what i can. to say it's "settling" though is rather BS, since my reason for purchase has nothing to do with not wanting to train him. thanks for the assumption, however.  Roll Eyes

the theory is that the reason for not pulling is the realization that it's not achieving what he wants. i have not had explained to me why an uncomfortable sensation is necessary to train, as opposed to simple positive reinforcement.

to use a different analogy, most training manuals suggest that if you have a jumping dog, you don't swat him on the head until he stops jumping, you simply refuse to give him attention until he stops jumping, thus making him go "hey, when i don't jump, i get nice things!" i have yet had anyone explain to me why a dog cannot learn other things in a similar manner; the simple restraining from movement when pulling and giving of freedom when being calm.

i understand the idea, and i really, really wish you'd stop getting so confrontational since i don't think i've taken that attitude with you. my thing is that i quite literally don't see why sheer positive reinforcement cannot be used in general. i'm strong enough to stop him from moving if i don't want him to move. if we're out for a walk and he goes in directions i don't want him to go, the walk stops and i restrain him. he settles down and we move along.

now, if it's a harsh case and i cannot restrain him via the harness, sure i'll go back to the leash because it seems more is needed. all i'm saying is that the "collars are all that work" attitude has never made sense to me when the same attitude is not applied elsewhere.

again, i am not saying "collars are bad and no one should use them ever", they have a track record and are universally trusted. all i'm suggesting is that this is not something i buy to "settle". if anything it could take a little more work for exactly the reasons you outlined. what i'm saying is that it's entirely reasonable that this thing could work well.

so i'll give it a try, and i will 100% eat crow if after a few weeks he's not responding to it. this isn't a point of ego to me, i'm not personally invested in whether or not it works. i just really think it could.
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2008, 10:18:43 AM »

i'm a little fatigued, but i'll respond to what i can. to say it's "settling" though is rather BS, since my reason for purchase has nothing to do with not wanting to train him. thanks for the assumption, however.  Roll Eyes

the theory is that the reason for not pulling is the realization that it's not achieving what he wants. i have not had explained to me why an uncomfortable sensation is necessary to train, as opposed to simple positive reinforcement.

to use a different analogy, most training manuals suggest that if you have a jumping dog, you don't swat him on the head until he stops jumping, you simply refuse to give him attention until he stops jumping, thus making him go "hey, when i don't jump, i get nice things!" i have yet had anyone explain to me why a dog cannot learn other things in a similar manner; the simple restraining from movement when pulling and giving of freedom when being calm.

i understand the idea, and i really, really wish you'd stop getting so confrontational since i don't think i've taken that attitude with you. my thing is that i quite literally don't see why sheer positive reinforcement cannot be used in general. i'm strong enough to stop him from moving if i don't want him to move. if we're out for a walk and he goes in directions i don't want him to go, the walk stops and i restrain him. he settles down and we move along.

now, if it's a harsh case and i cannot restrain him via the harness, sure i'll go back to the leash because it seems more is needed. all i'm saying is that the "collars are all that work" attitude has never made sense to me when the same attitude is not applied elsewhere.

again, i am not saying "collars are bad and no one should use them ever", they have a track record and are universally trusted. all i'm suggesting is that this is not something i buy to "settle". if anything it could take a little more work for exactly the reasons you outlined. what i'm saying is that it's entirely reasonable that this thing could work well.

so i'll give it a try, and i will 100% eat crow if after a few weeks he's not responding to it. this isn't a point of ego to me, i'm not personally invested in whether or not it works. i just really think it could.

So swatting them in the head doesn't hurt, but a choker collar does? Smiley  I personally also have never heard swatting a dog on the head as a method to stop them from jumping.  To take issue with that, what do you think is more humane and effective?  A slight pop of a choker collar around one of the most sensitive parts of a dogs body, so that little force needs to be applied...or directly striking your dog on the head because it is jumping?  I honestly don't even see the reason why that is a warranted correction, jumping is usually seeded in alot of other reasons that go deeper than the dog just 'jumping'.  You can tell alot of times when a dog has been taught using physical force by whether or not they are hand shy.  You know, when you outreach your hand and it backs away or is leary. 

No one is being confrontational and no one said said you are settling.  Relax.  I used the large % of harness buyers as those who settle, I never said you, you had explained why you bought the harness.

In my personal opinion, you are setting yourself up for defeat with the harness.  That is just what I personally believe.  There is a reason people do not use them for training purposes, and the reason is the reason I stated. 

the theory is that the reason for not pulling is the realization that it's not achieving what he wants.

What he wants to do is to pull.  To guide.  To lead.  So by your way of thinking, he pulls and you stop walking.  So he stops pulling.  Where did he ever realize that he can't pull?  You start walking again, he starts pulling.  Repeat.  Where is the correction?  I am sure a 'no' is going to do nothing if he is that determined and hell-bent on pulling, not to mention how unsincere your 'no' is going to sound when you are in such a frustrating situation.  If anything, the stopping and going is going to make things worse.  It becomes a game and he is anticipating the pulling.  It is almost like rewarding him for being calm with pulling.

If a dog were to live with their mother until they were grown, or if he lived in a house full of balanced, pack oriented dogs, they would never ignore a puppy's misbehavior.  Growls, baring of teeth, muzzling, and many other ways would be used to show the puppy that his behavior is unwanted.  They are all corrections.  Dogs are not passive creatures when the stability of pack life is threatened.  Yes, they are dogs and not wolves, but there is still a survival instinct.  Any weak link is an issue.

I'm just trying to help you, but it appears you have bought into the hype.  I had already stated that it is not impossible to train a dog wearing a harness.  But in years of obedience class, I have never seen any dog wear a harness, nor have I seen the older, accomplished dogs with anything but at least a choker.  This includes small, sensitive breeds such as a poodle and miniature schnauzer, who have worn at least a choker since puppyhood, and both have their UDX....and are confident and affectionate too. 

You do what you feel is right.
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2008, 03:48:59 PM »

"temper" has a severe case of "Iamalwaysrightus". Undecided
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2008, 06:07:08 PM »

i'm going to make this one brief... ish.


So swatting them in the head doesn't hurt, but a choker collar does? Smiley

no, doofy. my point was that if we don't smack him on the head to stop him from doing something (jumping, biting, barking, whatever), then why choke him to stop him from pulling?

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the theory is that the reason for not pulling is the realization that it's not achieving what he wants.

What he wants to do is to pull.  To guide.  To lead.  So by your way of thinking, he pulls and you stop walking.  So he stops pulling.  Where did he ever realize that he can't pull?  You start walking again, he starts pulling.  Repeat. Where is the correction? I am sure a 'no' is going to do nothing if he is that determined and hell-bent on pulling, not to mention how unsincere your 'no' is going to sound when you are in such a frustrating situation.  If anything, the stopping and going is going to make things worse.  It becomes a game and he is anticipating the pulling.  It is almost like rewarding him for being calm with pulling.

bingo! you got it, but then you went off the reservation.

of course the "no" means nothing. what DOES mean something is when he cannot move forward when he pulls hard against the harness. i can overpower the little meatball, he's not a 180 pound bullmastiff. the idea is that he does not get to walk unless he stops pulling. and i mean that in more than just pulling against the leash, it also happens if he starts to try and take the lead. if that happens, he gets hauled back and we stop again. over time, ideally, he'll figure out that the walks don't go as well if he tries to run ahead. all that changes is that he gets restrained by the chest, not the neck. everything else is identical. he's prevented from going where he tries to go, stopped from taking the lead.

now your last sentence DOES make a good point and thank you for finally getting to something i need to think about. until then it was just a bunch of "where's the correction?" and it felt like we weren't quite talking on the same page.

what i've never had explained is how a dog can learn everything from positive reinforcement EXCEPT walking calmly. you can house and crate train a dog with nothing but praise when he does well, he can learn every trick in the book with treats and not a shock collar, but walking requires a choke chain? how does that work?

again, the end lesson is that i'm going to do what's best for him, and if it turns out i'm wrong... then i'm wrong. i'd just like to understand how this apparent inconsistency works.
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2008, 08:46:07 PM »

And I totally understand why you think there is inconsistency, because it makes sense in theory.  In all of those other things that include positive reinforcement, the bad behavior is always corrected during the learning phase.  Potty training, every obedience command, jumping, barking.  There is SOME form of a correction.  Let me try to explain this another way really briefly.

In formal obedience school, the first part of leash etiquette is for the dog to be able to calmly behave on a leash, and the leash should be loose.  Puppies usually have a big problem with this since they are so inquisitive.  When they begin to stray and the leash becomes taut, u pop the leash and give whatever correction you use.  When the leash is loose, you can generally be calm and happy so the dog picks up on it, and pet him and what not.  Dog learns that your happiness + loose leash + no uncomfortable sensation on their neck = good thing.

Heeling is taught much of the same way.  No need to pop the leash unless the dog strays.  Dog eventually learns that by staying in position that keeps neck-to-shoulder parallel to your leg is proper form.  My dog does not walk in PERFECT heel position on walks, but hes right at my side and never ever in front of me.  They get the point.

The thing that I am trying to explain is a dog pulling against a harness is not a correction, and it is not an unpleasant sensation.  It will feed the desire to pull.  You being stronger than the dog means nothing.  It is almost like tug of war, sure its fun, but its still a dominance game.  Who can pull harder and control the situation?  He who can is the one in power, and they will try and try and try until they win.  Any breed with the possibility of dominant tendencies are usually the ones with severe pulling issues, and usually the ones where tug of war is a bad idea.  What I am trying to get you to understand is that a dog pulling with any collar, harness, or whatever, is not "walks don't go well" in their mind.  That is EXACTLY what they want.  The collar is irrelevant, they'll do it with anything on.  It is not a sense of progression that they are after.  You restraining him may keep him from moving, but there is always going to be an instance where he gains ground and then he has won.  If a dog pulled like a madman they'd do it in a harness and they'd do it with a prong.  But the harness is in no way uncomfortable to them, it is in fact the perfect apparatus to pull with...hence why it is used for working purposes.

Truth of the matter is, pulling issues are also deep-rooted issues that don't just lie on the level of the dog pulling.  To use Cesar's show as an example, all of those dogs with terrible behavior issues also 'coincidentally' pull on the lead.  There is a reason for this.  You can't teach a dog that he can't pull by overpowering him into submission.  You need to lead by example.

I'm honestly not sure why were having this discussion because I think it is highly unlikely he has this problem to begin with.
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« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2008, 09:18:20 PM »

there's nothing really for me to argue against in that post (it made sense, by and large, and thanks for putting the effort into writing it all). this part i'm unsure about though.

And I totally understand why you think there is inconsistency, because it makes sense in theory.  In all of those other things that include positive reinforcement, the bad behavior is always corrected during the learning phase.  Potty training, every obedience command, jumping, barking.  There is SOME form of a correction.  Let me try to explain this another way really briefly.

what is the form of correction? most of what i've read the "correction" is in the sense of denying the dog what he wants. that's what i figured would be happening in this instance. i ask this not to be an asshole, but so i've got something else to mull over when i'm trying to teach him this stuff.

i think what's happening here, really, comes down to what you said on the end and frankly i feel like a jackass for not noticing: i'm not talking about using the harness as correction if he's using the leash for a tug of war. all i'm talking about is making sure he stays in line when walking, using it to "correct" him if, say, he wants to jog over and eat some flowers or run after another puppy. that's all i'm talking about.

i'm referring to pulling as the pursuit of another goal, not the goal itself. if what he wants to do is purely pull, then the harness does jack for exactly the reasons you said, i'm basically just pulling right back and it turns into fun. in that case he WOULD need a collar, like you've been saying. but that's not why i'm buying this.

the reason i bought a harness is for walking ONLY, and so i can stop him from abruptly chasing things or hopping off in random directions. if he starts to just pull like we're battling for dominance, off the thing comes and he can get it back when he learns to Quit Dat.
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2008, 10:03:55 AM »

there's nothing really for me to argue against in that post (it made sense, by and large, and thanks for putting the effort into writing it all). this part i'm unsure about though.

what is the form of correction? most of what i've read the "correction" is in the sense of denying the dog what he wants. that's what i figured would be happening in this instance. i ask this not to be an asshole, but so i've got something else to mull over when i'm trying to teach him this stuff.

i think what's happening here, really, comes down to what you said on the end and frankly i feel like a jackass for not noticing: i'm not talking about using the harness as correction if he's using the leash for a tug of war. all i'm talking about is making sure he stays in line when walking, using it to "correct" him if, say, he wants to jog over and eat some flowers or run after another puppy. that's all i'm talking about.

i'm referring to pulling as the pursuit of another goal, not the goal itself. if what he wants to do is purely pull, then the harness does jack for exactly the reasons you said, i'm basically just pulling right back and it turns into fun. in that case he WOULD need a collar, like you've been saying. but that's not why i'm buying this.

the reason i bought a harness is for walking ONLY, and so i can stop him from abruptly chasing things or hopping off in random directions. if he starts to just pull like we're battling for dominance, off the thing comes and he can get it back when he learns to Quit Dat.

The thing is, whenever any dog learns how to walk properly.  It doesn't matter what they are wearing because the lead is always loose.  If someone wants to put a harness on their dog, go for it, but it'd be the same as a choker or a flat buckle collar, its all the same.

I don't know what you have read that says denying the dog what they want is a correction.  Burn those books.  The reason that 'corrections' are so important is because it associates the bad behavior with something unpleasant, just as a dog would learn that if he sits he may get a treat, or when he potties where he is supposed to it makes you very happy.  If you are walking your dog and he has a thing for squirrels, and you restrain him from going after a squirrel, he is still never learning that he can't eat squirrels.  It is much much easier to teach a dog that he is supposed to be by your side when out for a walk than to restrain him from the hundreds of things he may choose to be interested in.

Please understand that I am not saying a choker collar and popping it is a correction for every bad behavior.  It is merely an obedience training tool that quickly and effectively associates bad behavior with an unpleasant sensation on a sensitive part of the body.  I am not advocating putting a choker collar on a dog with a resource guarding problem, recreating the problem, then choking him to death with it.  I am saying that for things like obedience commands and teaching a dog how to walk properly, some form of a training collar is the single most effective way to do it.

I am also not advocating militant dog walking, lol.  Just as an example, when I walk my dog he walks by my side for 10-15min on the way to a park, then I give the 'release' command and he gets to sniff all over and do his business in a big open grassy area and do whatever dogs do, and then he gets back to my side and we walk for another 20min or so and then go home.  Walks are the time for you to bond with your dog, they should be fun and they should be tiring, but have some sort of structure, like everything else in their life.
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2008, 10:38:24 AM »

shortening this. i'm done with the debate. this discussion has gotten hilariously and retardedly long. all over a fucking little harness thing. good christ. it's a leather harness. i cannot imagine this will wreck his development.

look man, i'm not aiming to get my guy registered with any obedience certs or anything. my deal isn't to make him obey my beck and call (which would be one hell of a battle with a bulldog anyway, from what i'm reading). i'm not anticipating a dog that'll heel and roll over and shake and speak and do a hundred commands. as long as we can have a walk that doesn't involve him tearing around eating shit, i'm satisfied.

and anyway, a big fucking leather harness just looks way more badass than a collar.  Grin
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2008, 11:29:43 AM »

shortening this. i'm done with the debate. this discussion has gotten hilariously and retardedly long. all over a fucking little harness thing. good christ. it's a leather harness. i cannot imagine this will wreck his development.

look man, i'm not aiming to get my guy registered with any obedience certs or anything. my deal isn't to make him obey my beck and call (which would be one hell of a battle with a bulldog anyway, from what i'm reading). i'm not anticipating a dog that'll heel and roll over and shake and speak and do a hundred commands. as long as we can have a walk that doesn't involve him tearing around eating shit, i'm satisfied.

and anyway, a big fucking leather harness just looks way more badass than a collar.  Grin

Hehe, it isn't as difficult as you think.  It does nothing but give them someone/some rules to follow.  People think obedience is like cruel or something, its not, its fantastic.  And the battle with the bulldog is silly.  I don't believe in any of the breed stereotype shit.  There is nothing that can't be changed.  Chances are he is going to be a lazy bum.  Not gonna be long winded, cause this is a whole nother debate.

GL, if you need any help just PM me.
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2008, 11:52:54 AM »

Hehe, it isn't as difficult as you think.  It does nothing but give them someone/some rules to follow.  People think obedience is like cruel or something, its not, its fantastic.  And the battle with the bulldog is silly.  I don't believe in any of the breed stereotype shit.  There is nothing that can't be changed.  Chances are he is going to be a lazy bum.  Not gonna be long winded, cause this is a whole nother debate.

GL, if you need any help just PM me.

oh i definitely will if i run into issues. despite all i've said above, i do have two collars (one normal, one slip) in case i need 'em.

rules is good, and they'll be laid down, i just really don't anticipate teaching many commands beyond "come" "sit" and "down". it's not that i think it's cruel, i love watching those obedience exhibitions where people get their dogs to run obstacle courses or do crazy dances, that's just not anything i'm interested in doing. as long as he doesn't destroy the house and we can run around without him fighting me, i'm happy as a clam, y'know? getting certifications just doesn't interest me.
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2008, 01:11:31 PM »

oh i definitely will if i run into issues. despite all i've said above, i do have two collars (one normal, one slip) in case i need 'em.

rules is good, and they'll be laid down, i just really don't anticipate teaching many commands beyond "come" "sit" and "down". it's not that i think it's cruel, i love watching those obedience exhibitions where people get their dogs to run obstacle courses or do crazy dances, that's just not anything i'm interested in doing. as long as he doesn't destroy the house and we can run around without him fighting me, i'm happy as a clam, y'know? getting certifications just doesn't interest me.

I hear you.
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« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2008, 01:50:23 PM »

day 1: no real issue. he tugs this way or that in order to go after something, but if i "click" at him and tug the thing, he'll come. most of the short walk today as pretty slack in the lead. i was impressed.


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« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2008, 10:26:00 AM »

day 1: no real issue. he tugs this way or that in order to go after something, but if i "click" at him and tug the thing, he'll come. most of the short walk today as pretty slack in the lead. i was impressed.
Who's the chick petting him?

Sounds like he will do good on the lead. Are you going to take him to formal classes?
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« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »

Who's the chick petting him?

Sounds like he will do good on the lead. Are you going to take him to formal classes?

my little sista. 12 years old, it's kinda weird having a sibling THAT much younger.

formal classes? i doubt it. he's picking up on things pretty quickly and i'm not sure i want to have him heeling and rolling over or things like that. so long as he pees and poops outside and doesn't wreck the house, i'm satisfied. i'll work on other stuff as we go.
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« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2008, 01:50:35 PM »

my little sista. 12 years old, it's kinda weird having a sibling THAT much younger.

formal classes? i doubt it. he's picking up on things pretty quickly and i'm not sure i want to have him heeling and rolling over or things like that. so long as he pees and poops outside and doesn't wreck the house, i'm satisfied. i'll work on other stuff as we go.
Sit, stay, drop.......those will be important.
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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2008, 05:29:33 PM »

Sit, stay, drop.......those will be important.

we're on the road to sit. he IS at the point where if i hold a treat in front of him he'll sit down, but we're not far enough yet that he'll sit just on command. drop he's got no problem with. thus far anything he starts chawing on he'll drop like a hot rock if we say "no" loudly enough.

"stay" and "come" look like they'll need the most work.
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« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2008, 04:50:14 AM »

we're on the road to sit. he IS at the point where if i hold a treat in front of him he'll sit down, but we're not far enough yet that he'll sit just on command. drop he's got no problem with. thus far anything he starts chawing on he'll drop like a hot rock if we say "no" loudly enough.

"stay" and "come" look like they'll need the most work.

the point is not to instill fear by yelling.  Loud isn't always going to work, they know you are frustrated.
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« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2008, 07:22:58 AM »

When working with commands...try this

give one stern, firm, command...& wait a few seconds before issuing another one.

Most importantly....think about your posture & stand firm, shoulders square, head & chest lifted high.  If you're using a hand signal too, hold the hand in one pointed direction & keep it there.

Do not smile....make yourself look as serious as possible.  There's a projected energy that you're trying to have the dog receive.  Sometimes these projected energies are better received than yelling or waiving your hand.

The reason why I say just make one command & wait a few seconds is because most of us get very impatient.  Dogs can sense that & it will confuse them following through with the command you just gave them.
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« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2008, 09:05:09 AM »

the point is not to instill fear by yelling.  Loud isn't always going to work, they know you are frustrated.

oh i don't mean yelling. just a firm, resolute voice, you know? don't want to scare the li'l guy.

sounds good knny. that'll definitely be a part of the routine now.
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« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2008, 09:16:48 AM »

oh i don't mean yelling. just a firm, resolute voice, you know? don't want to scare the li'l guy.

sounds good knny. that'll definitely be a part of the routine now.

I thought you meant like if you said no once, you'd just say it louder until he cowered.  OK.

But what knny said.  And generally with whatever you do, especially once he starts learns, if he doesn't sit when you say sit, you sit him.  There should be no second attempt.  They must learn to do things the first time you say things.  I am not saying when you are teaching the command, but once he understands the concept and is trying your patience or being lazy, the first time you give the command you must follow through.
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« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2008, 12:37:43 PM »

sounds logical, temper. i'm not sure how long it'll be before we're at that point, but hopefully soon. i think he's getting the idea of listening.

oh by the way, a further update on the harness. to see what would happen, i put the collar on him to take him out, figuring i'd give that a go. well, hurley was having none of THAT. he started thrashing his head and pulling like CRAZY. took it off, put the harness back on, and out we went.

now keep in mind i'm not saying this is universal by ANY stretch or that the tried and true collar training is bad, just that in this instance my guy really dislikes something around his neck.

and just to return to the cute, here he is, snoozing, right now on my thigh after i got home from the gym


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